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another interesting pubmed randomized controlled trial....
Short-term effects of severe dietary carbohydrate-restriction advice in Type 2 diabetes--a randomized controlled trial. Daly ME, Paisey R, Paisey R, Millward BA, Eccles C, Williams K, Hammersley S, MacLeod KM, Gale TJ. Diabetes and Vascular Health Centre, Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Trust, Exeter, UK. m.e.daly@exeter.ac.uk OBJECTIVE: This study sought to examine the effects of a 3-month programme of dietary advice to restrict carbohydrate intake compared with reduced-portion, low-fat advice in obese subjects with poorly controlled Type 2 diabetes. RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: One hundred and two patients with Type 2 diabetes were recruited across three centres and randomly allocated to receive group education and individual dietary advice. Weight, glycaemic control, lipids and blood pressure were assessed at baseline and 3 months. Dietary quality was assessed at the end of study. RESULTS: Weight loss was greater in the low-carbohydrate (LC) group (-3.55 +/- 0.63, mean +/- sem) vs. -0.92 +/- 0.40 kg, P = 0.001) and cholesterol : high-density lipoprotein (HDL) ratio improved (-0.48 +/- 0.11 vs. -0.10 +/- 0.10, P = 0.01). However, relative saturated fat intake was greater (13.9 +/- 0.71 vs. 11.0 +/- 0.47% of dietary intake, P < 0.001), although absolute intakes were moderate. CONCLUSIONS: Carbohydrate restriction was an effective method of achieving short-term weight loss compared with standard advice, but this was at the expense of an increase in relative saturated fat intake. |
LOL. It's not a "pubmed trial", it's a Diabetic Medicine article, publishing work done at some UK universities and hospitals, INDEXED by PubMed. :)
"Subjects randomized to the LC group were educated about a diet consisting of up to 70 g of carbohydrate per day. In order to address some of the concerns of a low-carbohydrate diet, emphasis was also placed on incorporating at least half a pint of milk and one piece of fruit into the daily carbohydrate allowance to improve vitamin/mineral intake. The healthy eating group was given standard healthy eating advice, focusing on reducing fat intake. This was combined with instruction to reduce portion sizes. Alongside these main elements, both groups shared the following messages: to have a lower saturated fat and salt intake, to take oily fish twice weekly, and to take at least five portions of vegetables/fruit daily. For this latter point, the carbohydrate restriction in the low-carbohydrate group meant that low-carbohydrate vegetables made up the bulk of the five fruit and vegetables a day target." So...obese patients, with diabetes presumably related to their obesity (who have not yet managed to control their disease or lose weight via common sense or eating less), lose more weight (eat fewer calories, actually) when given detailed dietary advice including the suggestion to eat fibrous vegetables, fish, fruit, limited starchy food vs. being told "don't eat so much fat. Or so much, period." In reality, the low-carb folks were getting 110 g CHO for 34% of their daily calories (and the low-fat folks were getting 33% of their calories from fat). Not really applicable to the issues we've been discussing. |
that omega ratio is really farking us all up, so we all should probably be popping Om3 fish oil.
I've also read that the K/Na ratio was about 20:1, but now is ~2:1 |
Originally Posted by alison_in_oh
LOL. It's not a "pubmed trial", it's a Diabetic Medicine article, publishing work done at some UK universities and hospitals, INDEXED by PubMed. :)
oh. edit: well, you know, that's what I meant. 8-) |
Originally Posted by alison_in_oh
LOL. It's not a "pubmed trial", it's a Diabetic Medicine article, publishing work done at some UK universities and hospitals, INDEXED by PubMed. :)
"Subjects randomized to the LC group were educated about a diet consisting of up to 70 g of carbohydrate per day. In order to address some of the concerns of a low-carbohydrate diet, emphasis was also placed on incorporating at least half a pint of milk and one piece of fruit into the daily carbohydrate allowance to improve vitamin/mineral intake. The healthy eating group was given standard healthy eating advice, focusing on reducing fat intake. This was combined with instruction to reduce portion sizes. Alongside these main elements, both groups shared the following messages: to have a lower saturated fat and salt intake, to take oily fish twice weekly, and to take at least five portions of vegetables/fruit daily. For this latter point, the carbohydrate restriction in the low-carbohydrate group meant that low-carbohydrate vegetables made up the bulk of the five fruit and vegetables a day target." So...obese patients, with diabetes presumably related to their obesity (who have not yet managed to control their disease or lose weight via common sense or eating less), lose more weight (eat fewer calories, actually) when given detailed dietary advice including the suggestion to eat fibrous vegetables, fish, fruit, limited starchy food vs. being told "don't eat so much fat. Or so much, period." In reality, the low-carb folks were getting 110 g CHO for 34% of their daily calories (and the low-fat folks were getting 33% of their calories from fat). Not really applicable to the issues we've been discussing. actually, this does reveal the studier's alarming bias regarding sat. fat. the test group would have done much better if they had been instructed not to worry about the sat. fat, to eat more fat filled foods, go easy on the fruit and bread... |
let the nitpicking begin...
(from the new york times) February 7, 2006 Study Finds Low-Fat Diet Won't Stop Cancer or Heart Disease By GINA KOLATA The largest study ever to ask whether a low-fat diet reduces the risk of getting cancer or heart disease has found that the diet has no effect. The $415 million federal study involved nearly 49,000 women ages 50 to 79 who were followed for eight years. In the end, those assigned to a low-fat diet had the same rates of breast cancer, colon cancer, heart attacks and strokes as those who ate whatever they pleased, researchers are reporting today. "These studies are revolutionary," said Dr. Jules Hirsch, physician in chief emeritus at Rockefeller University in New York City, who has spent a lifetime studying the effects of diets on weight and health. "They should put a stop to this era of thinking that we have all the information we need to change the whole national diet and make everybody healthy." The study, published in today's issue of The Journal of the American Medical Association, was not just an ordinary study, said Dr. Michael Thun, who directs epidemiological research for the American Cancer Society. It was so large and so expensive, Dr. Thun said, that it was "the Rolls-Royce of studies." As such, he added, it is likely to be the final word. "We usually have only one shot at a very large-scale trial on a particular issue," he said. The results, the study investigators agreed, do not justify recommending low-fat diets to the public to reduce their heart disease and cancer risk. Given the lack of benefit found in the study, many medical researchers said that the best dietary advice, for now, was to follow federal guidelines for healthy eating, with less saturated and trans fats, more grains, and more fruits and vegetables. Not everyone was convinced. Some, like Dr. Dean Ornish, a longtime promoter of low-fat diets and president of the Preventive Medicine Research Institute in Sausalito, Calif., said that the women did not reduce their fat to low enough levels or eat enough fruits and vegetables, and that the study, even at eight years, did not give the diets enough time. Others said that diet could still make a difference, at least with heart disease, if people were to eat the so-called Mediterranean diet, low in saturated fats like butter and high in oils like olive oil. The women in the study reduced all kinds of fat. The diets studied "had an antique patina," said Dr. Peter Libby, a cardiologist and professor at Harvard Medical School. These days, Dr. Libby said, most people have moved on from the idea of controlling total fat to the idea that people should eat different kinds of fat. But the Mediterranean diet has not been subjected to a study of this scope, researchers said. And Barbara V. Howard, an epidemiologist at MedStar Research Institute, a nonprofit hospital group, and a principle investigator in the study, said people should realize that diet alone was not enough to stay healthy. "We are not going to reverse any of the chronic diseases in this country by changing the composition of the diet," Dr. Howard said. "People are always thinking it's what they ate. They are not looking at how much they ate or that they smoke or that they are sedentary." Except for not smoking, the advice for a healthy lifestyle is based largely on indirect evidence, Dr. Howard said, but most medical researchers agree that it makes sense to eat well, control weight and get regular exercise. That is also what the cancer society recommends. Dr. Thun, who described the study's results as "completely null over the eight-year follow-up for both cancers and heart disease," said his group had no plans to suggest that low-fat diets were going to protect against cancer. Others cautioned against being too certain that a particular diet would markedly improve health, and said that whether someone developed a chronic disease might not be entirely under their control — genetics also plays a role. David A. Freedman, a statistician at the University of California, Berkeley, who is not connected with the study but has written books on the design and analysis of clinical trials, said the results should be taken seriously. "The studies were well designed," Dr. Freedman said, "and the investigators tried to confirm popular hypotheses about the protective effect of diet against three major diseases in women." "But," he added, "the diet studied here turned out not to be protective after all." The study was part of the Women's Health Initiative of the National Institutes of Health, the same program that showed that hormone therapy after menopause might have more risks than benefits. In this case, the study addressed a tricky problem. For decades, many scientists have said, and many members of the public have believed, that what people eat — the composition of the diet — determines how likely they are to get a chronic disease. But that has been hard to prove. Studies of dietary fiber and colon cancer failed to find that fiber was protective, and studies of vitamins thought to protect against cancer failed to show an effect. Many cancer researchers have questioned large parts of the diet-cancer hypothesis, but it has kept a hold on the public imagination. "Nothing fascinates the American public so much as the notion that what you eat rather than how much you eat affects your health," said Dr. Libby, the Harvard professor. The study found that women who were randomly assigned to follow a low-fat diet ate significantly less fat over the next eight years. But they had just as much breast and colon cancer and just as much heart disease. The women were not trying to lose weight, and their weights remained fairly steady. But their experiences with the diets allowed researchers to question some popular notions about diet and obesity. There is a common belief that Americans get fat because they eat too many carbohydrates. The idea is that a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet leads to weight gain, higher insulin and blood glucose levels, and more diabetes, even if the calories are the same as in a higher-fat diet. That did not happen here. Others have said the opposite: that low-fat diets enable people to lose weight naturally. But that belief was not supported by this study. As for heart disease risk factors, the only one affected was LDL cholesterol, which increases heart disease risk. The levels were slightly higher in women eating the higher-fat diet, but not high enough to make a noticeable difference in their risk of heart disease. Although all the study participants were women, the colon cancer and heart disease results should also apply to men, said Dr. Jacques Rossouw, the project officer for the Women's Health Initiative. Dr. Rossouw said the observational studies that led to the hypothesis about colon cancer and dietary fat included men and women. With heart disease, he said, researchers have found that women and men respond in the same way to dietary fat. The most recent study follows a smaller one, reported last year, on low-fat diets for women who had breast cancer. That study hinted that eating less fat might help prevent a recurrence. But the current study, asking if a low-fat diet could protect women from breast cancer in the first place, had findings that fell short of statistical significance, meaning they could have occurred by chance. Dr. Rossouw said he was still intrigued by the breast cancer data, even though it was not statistically significant. The women on low-fat diets had a 9 percent lower rate of breast cancer; the incidence was 42 per thousand per year in women in the low-fat diet group, compared with 45 per thousand per year in women consuming their regular diet. That could mean that fat in the diet may have a small effect, Dr. Rossouw said, perhaps in some subgroups of women or over a longer period of time. He added that the study investigators would continue to follow the women to see if the effect became more pronounced. While cancer researchers said they were disappointed by the results, heart disease researchers said they were not surprised that simply reducing total fat had no effect, because they had moved on from that hypothesis. Of course, Dr. Libby acknowledged, the latest advice, to follow a Mediterranean diet and get regular exercise, has never been tested in a large randomized clinical trial. "If they did a study like that and it was negative," he said, "then I'd have to give up my cherished hypotheses for data." The low-fat diet was not easy to follow, said Dr. Rowan T. Chlebowski, a medical oncologist at Harbor-U.C.L.A. Medical Center and one of the study's principal investigators. Women were told to aim for a diet that had just 20 percent of its calories as fat, and most fell short. The diet they were told to follow "is different than the way most people eat," Dr. Chlebowski said. It meant, for example, no butter on bread, no cream cheese on bagels, no oil in salad dressings. "If a physician told a patient to eat less fat, that will do nothing," he said. "If you send someone to a dietitian one time, that will do next to nothing." The women in the study had 18 sessions in small groups with a trained nutritionist in the first year and four sessions a year after that. In the first year, the women on the low-fat diets reduced the percentage of fat in their diet to 24 percent of daily calories, and by the end of the study their diets had 29 percent of their calories as fat. In the first year, the women in the control group were eating 35 percent of their calories as fat, and by the end of the study their dietary fat content was 37 percent. The two groups consumed about the same number of calories. Some medical specialists emphasized that the study did not mean people should abandon low-fat diets. "What we are saying is that a modest reduction of fat and a substitution with fruits and vegetables did not do anything for heart disease and stroke or breast cancer or colorectal cancer," said Dr. Nanette K. Wenger, a cardiologist and professor of medicine at Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta. "It doesn't say that this diet is not beneficial." |
Originally Posted by mrfreddy
let the nitpicking begin...
(from the new york times) Doesn't look like these results have been published yet. However, another Women's Health Initiative analysis showed that "Weight loss was greatest among women in either group who decreased their percentage of energy from fat. A similar but lesser trend was observed with increases in vegetable and fruit servings, and a nonsignificant trend toward weight loss occurred with increasing intake of fiber." |
Originally Posted by alison_in_oh
You got it! :D I only skimmed this, looking for identification of the actual publication so I could read it for myself. However, I see that the "low fat" diet was supposed to be 20% of calories as fat, and most participants "fell short". The therapeutic diets that have been proven to reverse disease are 10% fat and lower. Oh, now I see that Ornish is quoted as saying exactly that. ;)
Doesn't look like these results have been published yet. However, another Women's Health Initiative analysis showed that "Weight loss was greatest among women in either group who decreased their percentage of energy from fat. A similar but lesser trend was observed with increases in vegetable and fruit servings, and a nonsignificant trend toward weight loss occurred with increasing intake of fiber." yeah, well, this study says this, that study says that, this expert blah blah blah... which is why I fall back on the paleo diet, hard to argue with that long term study! |
Originally Posted by mrfreddy
yeah, well, this study says this, that study says that, this expert blah blah blah... which is why I fall back on the paleo diet, hard to argue with that long term study!
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Originally Posted by alison_in_oh
The therapeutic diets that have been proven to reverse disease are 10% fat and lower
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Kind of a crappy study.
The low fat people by end of study were at 29% fat and the high fat were at 37%......only a 8% differance? And they didnt track which types of fat. Most every medical/nutrition so called expert agrees on the fact that its what types of fat one ingests and not the amount. They were talking about this study on the radio on my ride in today, they mentioned the average age was 62 and that by that stage in life it was too late to change a diet and expect significant changes in cancer/heart disease. But beside all the stuff it did/didnt prove, it still has a few items that I find significant. -the best dietary advice, for now, was to follow federal guidelines for healthy eating, with less saturated and trans fats, more grains, and more fruits and vegetables. -There is a common belief that Americans get fat because they eat too many carbohydrates. The idea is that a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet leads to weight gain, higher insulin and blood glucose levels, and more diabetes, even if the calories are the same as in a higher-fat diet. That did not happen here. -Others have said the opposite: that low-fat diets enable people to lose weight naturally. But that belief was not supported by this study. -Dr. Libby acknowledged, the latest advice, to follow a Mediterranean diet and get regular exercise () All kinda what i been saying all along. Edit : I dont follow any strict diet guidlines, but Mediterranean diet comes the closest, although they promote too much refined carbs like white rice and pasta. A good recipie site with a twist on it is http://www.mediterrasian.com/ but again, just switch the white rice and pasta for whole grain and brown basmati :) |
Originally Posted by alison_in_oh
Oh, OK, so Paleolithic: fat-22% protein-37% carbohydrate-41%, that's about 205 g CHO in a 2000 calorie diet? :D
dont know where you get those numbers from, must be from one of those PC interpretations of the scant information we have from that time... fact is nobody really knows what people ate, they have to piece it together from what we do know and common sense. here's a link to a thorough skewring of the pc version, (i.e, the lean meat lots of carbs version): here's how it starts out: http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/paleodiet.html Peter Paleolith goes ahunting and catches himself a plump prairie hen. Using tools of stone and bone, he removes the entrails and throws them away. Then he plucks off the feathers and peels off the skin—he'd like to eat the succulent fat underneath but he learned during his rites of passage that the fat is taboo. Next he cuts off the dark meat and discards that too. Deftly he separates the white meat from the bone. The bones go in the trash heap and Peter Paleolith is left with. . . skinless chicken breasts! Then Peter prepares his meal. Because salt didn't exist in those days, he bathes his chicken breasts in lemon juice and balsamic vinegar. He greases his Paleolithic pot with canola oil, the kind his elders recommend. He seasons his meal with ground black pepper or perhaps chili powder which he always carries with him in a leather pouch. And, because he doesn't have any sugar, he washes down his Paleolithic meal with. . . a diet soda! If this sounds absurd, it's because absurd things happen when a professor of exercise tries to write a diet book that captures the current interest in the so-called caveman diet and adheres to political correctness at the same time... |
Originally Posted by Jarery
Edit : I dont follow any strict diet guidlines, but Mediterranean diet comes the closest, although they promote too much refined carbs like white rice and pasta. A good recipie site with a twist on it is http://www.mediterrasian.com/ but again, just switch the white rice and pasta for whole grain and brown basmati :)
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Originally Posted by mrfreddy
dont know where you get those numbers from, must be from one of those PC interpretations of the scant information we have from that time... fact is nobody really knows what people ate, they have to piece it together from what we do know and common sense.
here's a link to a thorough skewring of the pc version, (i.e, the lean meat lots of carbs version): here's how it starts out: http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/paleodiet.html BTW, on WAP and their raw milk fascination...Washingtonians are not so convinced right now, methinks. It's great, I first heard about the WAPF in the context of raw food diets for cats -- the species on which the Price-Pottenger research was done. You know, the short-boweled, sharp-toothed, acidic-stomach, obligate-carnivorous, non-vitamin-A synthesizing critters we share our homes with. :lol: As for me and my long, wrinkly, fermentation-promoting bowel and my flat crushing molars, we'll stick with an omnivorous approach, thanks. ;) |
I tried raw milk cheese recently and it made me a little sick. Tasted good though.
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Originally Posted by zowie
I tried raw milk cheese recently and it made me a little sick. Tasted good though.
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Originally Posted by alison_in_oh
BTW, on WAP and their raw milk fascination...Washingtonians are not so convinced right now, methinks. Several issues with this report. To start with e-coli is ALWAYS in dairy as well as many other foods. Certain strains of e-coli are PROBIOTIC and are responsible for giving cheeses there flavor. Benificial e-coli strains protect us from harmful e-coli so being bacteria parenoid is ant-productive. Whats needed is positive detection of certain harmful strains of e-coli which haven't been found. For some reason the area of Washinton where this dairy is located is a hot spot for harmul e-coli strains and its not limmited to dairy's. The WAPF is all for CERTIFIED raw milk where hygeine is taken seriously. 10% of calories as fat? I thought someone posted a mainstream reference that said we would DIE with less than 15% of calories from fat? Paelo diet with low % of fat? Who did the studies? Regards, Anthony |
if you really want raw milk, you probably should get it from somewhere with a bigger budget than the place in question in Washington..
Among the improvements the state wants at Dee Creek are a concrete floor in the milking parlor, replacing a muddy rubber mat; running water in the milking area for hand washing; and an improved area for filtering and chilling the milk, now done in the family kitchen |
Ahh come on, we CANT let this thread die until it gets to *500* posts!:D :D
Regarding the claim that dietry fat intake needs to be under 10% for theraputic benifit here's a link to the Food and Agriculture Organisation which is part of the UN which say's that 15% dietry fat intake is the minimum required.http://www.fao.org/docrep/V4700E/V4700E06.htm I don't agree with there reccomended maximums of course but even fat phobics agree to a higher absolute minimum than 10%. Regards, Anthony |
I still say we all meet back here in 350 years and see who was right :)
Then again, odds are the experts will still be trying to come to an agreement :P |
Originally Posted by mrfreddy
yeah, well, this study says this, that study says that, this expert blah blah blah... which is why I fall back on the paleo diet, hard to argue with that long term study!
The paleo diet? Who comes up with this crap??? It is unclear what early man ate, but many agree it was likely whatever he (or she) could get their hands on. Its widely known that most hunter gather groups studied in the 1800s and 1900s received a greater amount of food from the gathering function than the hunting function. That would support a more carbo based diet than an atkins plan. Was that different in the far past? Who knows... The other problem with this diet is that we don't know if it was really healthy. It is unclear what the life expectancy was in the distant past and what killed the people when they died. While I guess cancer and heart disease was not a problem back then, its largely because there were many other things that ended life back then like predation, illness, injury, etc. Without data on health or cause of death, it is difficult to measure the effectiveness of any diet program. While we don't know what they ate, I suspect that it was much harder for them to eat poorly than it is for us today. No corn syrup, "enriched" white flours, sugars, corn fed (ie fatty) hormone injected beef, etc. Every meal involved a workout (you had to find it, pick it or chase it to eat it). Couches, TVs, computers, the internet or desk jobs had not yet been invented. Of course, neither had bicycles or good hygiene, so the distant past was no picnic. I have a wild idea, rather than guessing what people ate in the distant past, why don't you look and emulate the eating and exercise habits of healthy people today? Those people are easy to identify, they just flew past you on the road. Watch them and see how many sticks of butter, or 16 oz steaks they eat in a day. So, before you cram that Krispy Kreme into your pie-hole, ask yourself, "What would Lance do?" |
Originally Posted by dazed&confused
I have a wild idea, rather than guessing what people ate in the distant past, why don't you look and emulate the eating and exercise habits of healthy people today? Those people are easy to identify, they just flew past you on the road. Watch them and see how many sticks of butter, or 16 oz steaks they eat in a day.
" Best diet advice yet :) |
There's still this fundamentalist predjudice against animal fats that's based on NO evidence at all and despite the absolute lack of evidence people are still happy to be anti-fat. Its as if they don't actualy CARE that there's a lack of evidence.
WHY? It comes from religion. Consumption of animal fats is gluttony and therefore a sin. This is still the only explanation that makes any sense of the facts. GEE we're almost there! :D Regards, Anthony |
Originally Posted by AnthonyG
There's still this fundamentalist predjudice against animal fats that's based on NO evidence at all and despite the absolute lack of evidence people are still happy to be anti-fat. Its as if they don't actualy CARE that there's a lack of evidence.
WHY? It comes from religion. Consumption of animal fats is gluttony and therefore a sin. This is still the only explanation that makes any sense of the facts. GEE we're almost there! :D Regards, Anthony It comes from politics. |
Originally Posted by jur
Not Christianity - it praises animal fat. You must be thinking of another religion.
It comes from politics. Most articles I see say its to do with Puritan values and since the puritans founded white America its pretty strong in the US of A. It would be interesting to compare biblical references to animal fat consumption and the puritanical aproach. I wonder when and why they diverged. EDIT: OOH OOH, 500 th post. 1 more and we have 500 replies!:D :D Regards, Anthony |
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