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Obsidian's Science Experiment

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Obsidian's Science Experiment

Old 03-27-06, 05:08 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by cod3man
It seems like your spending a lot of time on this. To be honest I can not help but laugh when someone says 7 pounds in 7 days etc. Another question what is your starting weight? Cause if your under 210 or so and losing 6 pounds in a week- I would consider that unhealthy. You should hook up with some one who can monitor your body fat percentage accurately. Then you can have some real number to chew on.
Which method do you think is accurate? I've got a scale that does it, I've measured it with calipers, I have used the measurment method where you measure chest, arms, abdomen and so forth. I haven't been measured under water. I was waiting for the original fluid shifts to finish and then I was going to start doing that. I will post that data next week.

I stated in an earlier post that my scale had shown an increase in BF% and I attributed it to fluid loss. My seven pounds is an accurate measurement. It probablly showed that there had been some fluid lost with the glucose shifts. My hope was that it wasn't intracellular glucose loss that was happening so that I would bonk on my rides. My longest ride since starting was 3 hours and 5 minutes during which I took in 250 k/cal of glucose in gatorade. I have not ridden longer since starting the diet because I want to make sure I understand what I am doing and don't get 40 miles from home and can't remember my name.

I started this weighing 269. As to its healthiness, I don't expect the weight loss to remain at such a high rate as fluid shifts have now stabilized and I stay with it and see how the weight comes off. I believe my k/cal count is good. I am making most foods from scratch and haven't taken the time to add it all up as I wasn't feeling deprived.
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Old 03-27-06, 09:50 PM
  #27  
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strange:

..

Last edited by CrashVector; 05-28-06 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 03-27-06, 10:15 PM
  #28  
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It is tuff to measure yourself with calipers- if your a smidgen off you are off. You said your scale is inaccurate. And by getting the same person to do it they will always measure the same way. I only asked about it because I assumed the goal of the diet is to lose weight and maintain your glycogen levels while on a low carb- high fat diet. Thats all. I wish I could encourage you more- health is important - it is great to see someone so dedicated to cataloging all their activities, I doubt I have the ambition to do it. And about the glycogen levels, is there a way to measure how much you have stored in your muscles? or the liver? I have been told most of it is in the muscles. The only way I could think of is by riding consecutive days until you bonk then take a day off and ride till you bonk. Then I guess we could know how fast you can refill them... keep it up.
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Old 03-27-06, 11:52 PM
  #29  
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CrashVector,

You are the one who said there was a LOT wrong with what I had said. I responded about by talking about my weight, glycogen, fluid balance, and whether or not my intracellular glycogen was being depleted or not. You came across throwing your credentials (which you have now elevated) as a reason to give credence to what you are saying. I would prefer to see how you think the weight loss can be explained while I maintain stable, above ketogenic, blood sugars. Is the possibility of lowered serum glucose an explanation of fluid loss? Wouldn't cellular levels of glucose be reflective of serum glucose? Wouldn't this especially be the case if, after exercise insulin resitance decreases? I cannot quite see the "danger" that this poses. But, hey, I will wait to see what you think that is rather than some implied appeal to authority.

I suppose I can do a urine dip stick tomorrow while I'm at work and see if I am in ketosis. I doubt that it would be so if my glucose levels have been what they are. I have tried low-carb diets before and I can tell you when that starts by the way that I feel. I have not had that sensation.

I visited with an endocrinologist this last week prior to starting this diet and he said that he puts his type II diabetics on low-carb diets. I asked him what about active types and he seemed to think that carbohydrate consumption needed to be carefully monitored and that they needed to match activity. I suppose he had some credibility to me as I have watched him manage his patients for the last 3 years and watched him grill nurses on poor record keeping on his patients when they are in the hospital.

Now, I understand Rehabilitation is tough work where you get involved with your patient's every facet of life. I respect that work and am sure that you know quite a bit about what you do. But your critiques are somewhat short on substance of what the actual threat of what I am doing is. I suppose Joe Friel MS and Loren Cordain, PhD must have studied about the topic for quite awhile prior to writing their book.

Your wording of your post is what drew my 'nasty' response. To say there was a LOT wrong with what I said and to still not have really said anything is a little irritating to me.
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Old 03-27-06, 11:55 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by cod3man
It is tuff to measure yourself with calipers- if your a smidgen off you are off. You said your scale is inaccurate. And by getting the same person to do it they will always measure the same way. I only asked about it because I assumed the goal of the diet is to lose weight and maintain your glycogen levels while on a low carb- high fat diet. Thats all. I wish I could encourage you more- health is important - it is great to see someone so dedicated to cataloging all their activities, I doubt I have the ambition to do it. And about the glycogen levels, is there a way to measure how much you have stored in your muscles? or the liver? I have been told most of it is in the muscles. The only way I could think of is by riding consecutive days until you bonk then take a day off and ride till you bonk. Then I guess we could know how fast you can refill them... keep it up.

The main deductive way to tell if you have enough glycogen stored is by taking serum glucose levels. As your serum glusose goes down, your liver and muscles will release glucose to keep that level pretty steady. This assumes, of course, you do not have diabetes or another malady that alters blood sugar levels.

Riding until you crash isnt a good idea. That's a really good way to cause serious (and sometimes potentially fatal) problems. It happens to everyone from time to time, but intentionally doing it repeatedly is very unwise. Add to the idea that some people would push the limit of how far they 'bonk' and you can see why its not a good thing.
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Old 03-28-06, 12:05 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by cod3man
It is tuff to measure yourself with calipers- if your a smidgen off you are off. You said your scale is inaccurate. And by getting the same person to do it they will always measure the same way. I only asked about it because I assumed the goal of the diet is to lose weight and maintain your glycogen levels while on a low carb- high fat diet. Thats all. I wish I could encourage you more- health is important - it is great to see someone so dedicated to cataloging all their activities, I doubt I have the ambition to do it. And about the glycogen levels, is there a way to measure how much you have stored in your muscles? or the liver? I have been told most of it is in the muscles. The only way I could think of is by riding consecutive days until you bonk then take a day off and ride till you bonk. Then I guess we could know how fast you can refill them... keep it up.
I think once I had an accurate measurement of BF% then I could tell increase or decrease on my scale based upon a relative value and that my hydration status was close to the same every time I weigh on it.

So far as glycogen levels are concerned, I considered that little experiment that you mentioned. I decided it was more than I wanted to do. It is easier to stick you finger several times a day until you get a handle on what is going on and then to relax and live life. Believe me, I won't maintain this level of measurment for too long. But, seeing all of the dire warnings r/t low-carb diets posted on this forum I am trying to be plenty cautious.

It is tough to have a limited amount of time in life to exercise and be a responsible family man and eat what the rest of the family is eating and not balloon up some. Something in your life ends up giving and it is usually your waistband. Now that I have been diagnosed with type II diabetes, I figure I've got to get a grip on it or end up like all of the people I see every day in my work.
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Old 03-28-06, 12:46 AM
  #32  
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obsidian,

I know that a diagnosis of diabetes is a big deal since they hit me with it over 5 years ago, when I was in CCU having a heart attack. I don't have your medical training, so I hope you don't think it's presumptuous if I offer some advice. I have learned a lot about the condition, and I've successfully dealt with it for 5 years now. It does get easier! I'm confident that you'll do well within a short time.

At first, the hardest part is to figure out how to get back to a normal life while still dealing with your condition. Some of the popular books and magazines would be more helpful than the medical journals, I've gotta say.

I hope your "experiment" is a success, but I have serious doubts. Not for scientific reasons, but because I don't think you'll be able to maintain the weird diet. Already, you couldn't do it when you were at a friend's house, and you indicated trouble doing it with your family when they're eating other things. Also, sipping Gatorade (pure glucose!) doesn't make much sense in your situation.

It would be much easier, and almost as effective, to just be aware of the number of servings of carbs you eat, and try to maintain steady intake so your body has an easier time dealing with the carbs. Also, eat for low glycemic loads. That, and healthy fats, should keep your triglycerides down. Don't worry so much about protein and fat, as they will not affect your blood sugar very much if you're eating some carbs.

Another thing is that I doubt that your blood sugar monitoring equipment is sensitive enough to be worrying about fluctuations of a few points. Just set a target, whatever your doctor thinks is best, maybe 100, and try not to exceed that. Don't worry about the little changes that may or may not actually be related to something you ate. (Of course if you're using the monitor to set antihyperglycemic dosages, that's a different story.)

For me it's been enough (so far) to eat sensibly, lose weight and exercise a lot. I don't do fingersticks very often, but when I do they're normal. My glyco-Hgb is always normal. Triglycerides are 99, LDL is 66, no albumin. Like I said, I don't do finger sticks much. I rely on the lab tests mentioned to give me a picture of my control.

Your challenge is not to always have perfect control of your diabetes. That's not possible. Your challenge is to eat sensibly, exercise religiously, and get your weight down. All that can be done while enjoying a very normal lifestyle, so relax and take it one day at a time!
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Old 03-28-06, 12:58 AM
  #33  
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my appologies then

If my over-simplification implied the fact that I was insulting you, it was not my intention.

I do not have your labs, nor am I privy to your long-term glucose levels. Taking this into consideration, my best guess would be that your rapid weight loss is a combination of things, primarily water.

Now...I'm not saying you arent losing fat. You probably are, and probably will continue to do so...but not 7lbs worth in 1 week.

I'm just saying you need to be careful, choose a more realistic diet, and watch your levels closely. You don't need pills to lose weight.

The ONLY way to lose weight is to burn more calories than you eat. Period.
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Old 03-28-06, 01:04 AM
  #34  
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my appologies then

If my over-simplification implied the fact that I was insulting you, it was not my intention.

I do not have your labs, nor am I privy to your long-term glucose levels. Taking this into consideration, my best guess would be that your rapid weight loss is a combination of things, primarily water.

Now...I'm not saying you arent losing fat. You probably are, and probably will continue to do so...but not 7lbs worth in 1 week.

I'm just saying you need to be careful, choose a more realistic diet, and watch your levels closely. You don't need pills to lose weight.

The ONLY way to lose weight is to burn more calories than you eat. Period.
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Old 03-28-06, 01:31 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by CrashVector
If my over-simplification implied the fact that I was insulting you, it was not my intention.

I do not have your labs, nor am I privy to your long-term glucose levels. Taking this into consideration, my best guess would be that your rapid weight loss is a combination of things, primarily water.

Now...I'm not saying you arent losing fat. You probably are, and probably will continue to do so...but not 7lbs worth in 1 week.

I'm just saying you need to be careful, choose a more realistic diet, and watch your levels closely. You don't need pills to lose weight.

The ONLY way to lose weight is to burn more calories than you eat. Period.
I think I made it quite clear that I didn't think I had lost 7 pounds of fat the first week. I was more worried about going into ketosis (which I don't want to do) and that the way that the numbers were going showed that it wasn't the case and that my serum levels must have come down significantly. This was fine with me; especially with the levels that they seemed to be maintaining.

I have been exercising for 9 months. In that period, the calories in vs. the calories burned was not working for me. I had experienced a weight loss earlier from 290 to 260 and then saw a gain as I relaxed and tried to eat a more normal diet. My A1C went from 7.0 to 5.3 back then. Now, my two hour post prandial sugars are starting to come back up as I began to eat like the rest of the family. Now, losing 30 pounds is a lot of work and I wasn't about to wait for it to go all of the way back up. I have this thing about staying off of medications as long as possible.

What I was experiencing that made it most difficult as I ate like the rest of the family was the amount of hunger and cravings I have been experiencing. I am not having that right now. It may be psychological as I start something new and am so determined and I may go crazy and clean out the cupboards in a passion of eating but, I don't feel that way yet and so I am eating less calories than I was and I am losing the weight. I agree, that "The ONLY way to lose weight is to burn more calories than you eat. Period." How I am able to do that and keep control of my appetite has been very problematic.
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