Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Lifting weights - bulk vs. strength

Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Lifting weights - bulk vs. strength

Old 04-24-06, 04:44 PM
  #1  
DiSrUpToR
-m- ('.') -m-
Thread Starter
 
DiSrUpToR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lifting weights - bulk vs. strength

..

Last edited by DiSrUpToR; 07-03-06 at 12:28 PM.
DiSrUpToR is offline  
Old 04-24-06, 05:58 PM
  #2  
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 11,739
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Weight-training can be broken down into three categories of lifting: bulk (size), strength, and conditioning (aerobic/toning).

Building up size and build require 1-2 reps at max-lift levels. As a cyclist, you don't need more bulk, it's not as aero and the extra weight hurts performance.

Strength can be increased significantly +50-150% without adding more bulk and weight in most riders, especially beginners with less than 5-years racing experience. This is done through recruitment of dormant fibres and increasing size of existing ones while decreasing the fat-content. These usually require 3-7 reps at 80-90% max-lift levels.

The last category of toning/aerobic workouts are usually better done on the bike anyway. These are typically 10-20+ rep sets of 50-75% max-lift. These don't do much for increasing your strength or for aerobic workout. You can get the same effect on the bike with sprints & intervals so it's better to do on the bike so you can work other things like group-interactions and endurance as well on the same ride.

As for a weight-workout programme, consult a professional trainer who does this for a living. They can set you up with a customized schedule specificially for your intended purpose. Also check out the winter-training stickey above..
DannoXYZ is offline  
Old 04-24-06, 07:01 PM
  #3  
cod3man
-default-
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 103

Bikes: 3 of them

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Go to a weight lifting or body building forum. If you ask here you get the wrong answers. Such as "Building up size and build require 1-2 reps at max-lift levels" what? wrong. simply wrong. In fact I would suggest reading some articles on bodybuilding.com. Search for words like hypertrophy. It will tell you that reps of around 1-6 will give you the minimal size gains of all lifting ranges. So if you are a biker concerned about weight- size etc. Not gaining muscle mass but gaining strength is probably what your after. Doing reps of 6-12 will result in your maximal size gains, reps of 1-6 will result in the least amount of size gain. So Danno, maybe you typed it down wrong, but you should double check your facts.

I would suggest reading a book, but if you want some quick advice- maybe give us your goals, budgeted time, weight, time you spend on a bike, etc.... are you thinking of training to get rid of back pain? or is your neck strained sometimes? is that what you mean by muscle groups? or just massive legs and small arms? I know guys who use weights to train for iron man races, and marathons etc... many people use them. I think if your serious, you will use them. Maybe not everyday, maybe once a week.
cod3man is offline  
Old 04-24-06, 08:46 PM
  #4  
Az B
Fattest Thin Man
 
Az B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Posts: 2,649

Bikes: Miyata 610, Vinco V, Rocky Mountain Element

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A friend and I started riding about the same time. We are very similar in build and lifestyle. When we started, we were also very similar in capability. He hits the gym 3 times a week, I ride 4 times a week.

Guess who is the faster rider?

You want to ride faster/better? Ride more.

Az
Az B is offline  
Old 04-24-06, 09:29 PM
  #5  
Dakota
Member
 
Dakota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 48

Bikes: Trek 7.3FX LeMond Alpe d'Huez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Az B
A friend and I started riding about the same time. We are very similar in build and lifestyle. When we started, we were also very similar in capability. He hits the gym 3 times a week, I ride 4 times a week.

Guess who is the faster rider?

You want to ride faster/better? Ride more.

Az
But if the goal is fitness, not just riding faster, then isn't the answer a compination of gym and riding? I don't know the answer, but I use a Bowflex about 3x a week and ride 4-5 days a week. My goal is overall fitness. Am I wrong?

Ride strong...
Dakota is offline  
Old 04-24-06, 11:33 PM
  #6  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,236
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 704 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The ACSM recommends 6-12 reps (at 60-70 % of 1RM) for both strength and hypertrophy (bulk). And Danno also forgot to mention a fourth goal of resistance training--power or athletic performance--that is very important to cyclists because it is a function of both strength and speed.

So the four goals of resistance training are strength, hypertrophy, endurance and power. ACSM recommends periodising, with more empahasis on the goal that is most important for the activity. For overall fitness, all 4 would be important. For cycling performance, strength, endurance and power would be important, depending also on the specific type of cycling. Hypertrophy, especially in the upper body, is less sought after.
__________________

"Think Outside the Cage"
Roody is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 01:58 AM
  #7  
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 11,739
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok, I was a little hasty. In general:

1-5 reps: power & strength
8-12 reps: muscle-growth and hypertrophy
15+ reps: muscular endurance


Here's some more info:

Bodybuilding.com - Maximum Weight for Maximum Size and Strength
Bodybuilding.com - 5-4-3-2-1 Blast off
Bodybuilding.com - PowerUp: Big Weights Low Reps
Bodybuilding.com - Optimizing Muscle Size
Bodybuilding.com - High & Low reps: best of both worlds
DannoXYZ is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 05:23 AM
  #8  
Az B
Fattest Thin Man
 
Az B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Posts: 2,649

Bikes: Miyata 610, Vinco V, Rocky Mountain Element

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Dakota
But if the goal is fitness, not just riding faster, then isn't the answer a compination of gym and riding? I don't know the answer, but I use a Bowflex about 3x a week and ride 4-5 days a week. My goal is overall fitness. Am I wrong?

Ride strong...
Well, you're doing both. And that's kinda like adding the results together.

Overall, it depends on what your definition of fitness is. Aerobic? Bulging muscles? More power? Obviously my experience is less than scientific, but I'll go out on a limb and say that overall I'm stronger than he is. I do occasionally work upper body and core muscles, I just don't focus on it... I focus on riding. FWIW.

Az
Az B is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 05:50 AM
  #9  
joeprim
Senior Member
 
joeprim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern Neck Tidewater Va.
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Arnie Baker's Training Guide For Cyclests

Joe
joeprim is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 10:25 AM
  #10  
TYB069
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madison-ish
Posts: 298

Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
As everyone has said: what exactly do you want to accomplish? I would tailor my program towards the goals. To start, if you don't have really strict goals, or set them as you go along, would be to do 6-8 reps at maybe 70% (after you ease into the program of course). For me that 6-8 reps is generally a good compromise between strength and bulk.
TYB069 is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 11:59 AM
  #11  
milani
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Orland Park, IL
Posts: 69

Bikes: 2005 Specialized Roubaix (Dream)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cyclists, runners, etc would usually benefit from 2 types of workouts, neither of them giving tons of size:

1) A Powerlifting/strength building routine focusing on explosive and functional strength using multiple low rep sets
2) A muscle endurance routine using higher reps and fewer sets

If you are interested in Strength/Power, check these couple of sites. If you want more, I can give more.

http://www.elitefts.com/articles/Cur...es/default.asp (All Articles)
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/ (Q&A)
http://www.angelfire.com/ct3/modern-strength/ (Older newsletters, but sport-specific)
http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles.htm (The most powerful gym in the US)

I hate bodybuilding.com, but they have good articles:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbin...page=Endurance (muscle endurance)
milani is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 12:22 PM
  #12  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,236
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 704 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
Ok, I was a little hasty. In general:

1-5 reps: power & strength
8-12 reps: muscle-growth and hypertrophy
15+ reps: muscular endurance
Still a little hasty. The ACSM warns that very heavy weights ("1-5 reps") should only be used by advanced lifters. The OP probably is a beginner or intermediate, as are most exercisers.

With such heavy weights, even a slight deviation from good form could cause serious injuries. Timing and proper recovery are important also. Even the risk of just dropping such a heavy weight is considerable. You probably need a trainer to go there, or lots of personal knowledge and experience plus a reliable spotter/observer. Finally, a heavy regimen like 1 rep will probably leave your muscles too tired to do much cycling that day.

Again, the ACSM recommends 6-12 reps for both strength and hypertrophy, for beginning and intermediate lifters.
__________________

"Think Outside the Cage"
Roody is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 08:22 PM
  #13  
mx_599
Lost in the Black Hills
 
mx_599's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,725
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
1-5 reps: power & strength
8-12 reps: muscle-growth and hypertrophy
15+ reps: muscular endurance
well that is a little better.... i was about to call you on your BS above. you need to hone your googling skills
mx_599 is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 08:27 PM
  #14  
mx_599
Lost in the Black Hills
 
mx_599's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,725
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Roody
Still a little hasty. The ACSM warns that very heavy weights ("1-5 reps") should only be used by advanced lifters. The OP probably is a beginner or intermediate, as are most exercisers.

With such heavy weights, even a slight deviation from good form could cause serious injuries. Timing and proper recovery are important also. Even the risk of just dropping such a heavy weight is considerable. You probably need a trainer to go there, or lots of personal knowledge and experience plus a reliable spotter/observer. Finally, a heavy regimen like 1 rep will probably leave your muscles too tired to do much cycling that day.

Again, the ACSM recommends 6-12 reps for both strength and hypertrophy, for beginning and intermediate lifters.
good job
mx_599 is offline  
Old 04-25-06, 08:38 PM
  #15  
naane
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
This paper casts a lot of doubt on the recommendations from ACSM. It has a short list of what to do in terms of weight training at the end, based on their analysis. PS. I have no dog in this fight. The paper is rather long and heavy on references; it is hard to tell whether the analysis is sound without a lot of review and research.
Originally Posted by Roody
Still a little hasty. The ACSM warns that very heavy weights ("1-5 reps") should only be used by advanced lifters. The OP probably is a beginner or intermediate, as are most exercisers. With such heavy weights, even a slight deviation from good form could cause serious injuries. Timing and proper recovery are important also. Even the risk of just dropping such a heavy weight is considerable. You probably need a trainer to go there, or lots of personal knowledge and experience plus a reliable spotter/observer. Finally, a heavy regimen like 1 rep will probably leave your muscles too tired to do much cycling that day. Again, the ACSM recommends 6-12 reps for both strength and hypertrophy, for beginning and intermediate lifters.
naane is offline  
Old 04-26-06, 05:54 AM
  #16  
Tom Stormcrowe
Out fishing with Annie on his lap, a cigar in one hand and a ginger ale in the other, watching the sunset.
 
Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 16,065

Bikes: Techna Wheelchair and a Sun EZ 3 Recumbent Trike

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quick and dirty answer. More bulk doesn't = more strength, and reduces endurance. The best riders and runners aren't the bulky people, not because the bulky folk are not as fit strength wise, but because the whippet build runner or rider has more lung volume/gram mass. This translates to more oxygenation capability and greater aerobic endurance. There are a lot more factors to consider as well, but this is the basic foundation of the question as near as I can tell!
__________________
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche

"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
Tom Stormcrowe is offline  
Old 04-26-06, 11:18 AM
  #17  
Mphetameme
Keys are in the ignition
 
Mphetameme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 38

Bikes: Mikado Cabot

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Workout From Hell

I saw huge gains in strength, specifically Strength to Weight Ratio by following the Workout from Hell. You'll find references to this workout and its variations all over the internet, particularly on climbing forums where upper body strength and low weight seem to matter most. It takes some serious dedication though and most likely you will cry at some point. I needed a training partner for this... I simply am not disciplined enough to do 30 reps without a little encouragement.
Mphetameme is offline  
Old 04-26-06, 12:36 PM
  #18  
skandal20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 242

Bikes: 2005 Bianchi Eros, Celeste

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I think the effects of your workouts are going to mostly come from your diet. No matter how many sets/reps you lift, if you're not eating more calories than you're expending you're not going to gain much mass.
skandal20 is offline  
Old 04-26-06, 02:24 PM
  #19  
Tom Stormcrowe
Out fishing with Annie on his lap, a cigar in one hand and a ginger ale in the other, watching the sunset.
 
Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 16,065

Bikes: Techna Wheelchair and a Sun EZ 3 Recumbent Trike

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Agreed on the caloric issue, you have to have more calories in than out to bulk up. My point was cycling, in particular, long distance cycling parameters for max performance are optimum at low bulk-high aerobic volume ratio body mass factors rather than the weightlifters build.
__________________
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche

"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
Tom Stormcrowe is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
zacster
Road Cycling
54
11-28-18 04:50 PM
makeinu
Folding Bikes
51
07-11-13 08:10 AM
Narhay
Classic & Vintage
22
12-13-12 01:49 PM
raybo
Touring
0
11-03-08 09:40 AM
jermsoccer
Bicycle Mechanics
3
08-29-04 08:20 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.