Tabagas_Ru

Reading a post by carbonfiber boy lead my to post this abstract I found that contrasts some of what was posted in the insulin thread.

Apparently according to this abstract weight loss on a high protein diet or high CHO diet is bennificial. It claims that biomarkers of CVD and other diseases are reduced using either method of weight loss.


Long-term effects of a high-protein weight-loss diet1,2,3
Peter M Clifton, Jennifer B Keogh and Manny Noakes

1 From CSIRO Human Nutrition, Adelaide, Australia

Background: Evidence that high-protein diets are an effective strategy for the maintenance of long-term weight loss is limited.

Objective: The objective was to determine the efficacy of a higher protein intake on the maintenance of weight loss after 64 wk of follow-up.

Design: Seventy-nine healthy women with a mean (±SD) age of 49 ± 9 y and a body mass index (in kg/m2) of 32.8 ± 3.5 completed an intensive 12-wk weight-loss program and 52 wk of follow-up to compare the effects on weight-loss maintenance of a high-protein (HP) diet (34% of energy) or a high-carbohydrate (HC) diet (64% of energy).

Results: Mean (±SD) weight loss was not significantly different between groups: (HP: 4.6 ± 5.5 kg; HC: 4.4 ± 6.1 kg). Protein intake (g) from dietary records at 64 wk was directly related to weight loss (P < 0.0001), accounting for 15% of the variance. Protein intake as a percentage of energy was also related to weight change (P = 0.003), accounting for 10% of the variance. In the upper tertile (88 g protein/d), weight loss was 6.5 ± 7.5 and 3.4 ± 4.4 kg (P = 0.03) in the 2 lower tertiles, respectively. This difference did not translate to a difference in central fat loss between groups. Lipids, glucose, insulin, C-reactive protein, and homocysteine all improved with weight loss and were not significantly different between groups. HDL cholesterol rose by 20%. Higher serum vitamin B-12 was observed in the HP group, and folate concentrations were not significantly different between groups.

Conclusions: A reported higher protein intake appears to confer some weight-loss benefit. Cardiovascular disease risk factors, biomarkers of disease, and serum vitamins and minerals improved with no differences between groups.

Key Words: Weight loss • high-protein diet • abdominal fat • body composition


Here is another one that looked at short term weight loss with ad libitum high protein low carb, and high protein moderate carb intake.




Effects of a high-protein ketogenic diet on hunger, appetite, and weight loss in obese men feeding ad libitum 1,2,3
Alexandra M Johnstone, Graham W Horgan, Sandra D Murison, David M Bremner and Gerald E Lobley

1 From the Division of Obesity and Metabolic Health (AMJ, SDM, DMB, and GEL) and Biomathematics and Statistics Scotland (GWH), Rowett Research Institute, Aberdeen, United Kingdom

Background: Altering the macronutrient composition of the diet influences hunger and satiety. Studies have compared high- and low-protein diets, but there are few data on carbohydrate content and ketosis on motivation to eat and ad libitum intake.

Objective: We aimed to compare the hunger, appetite, and weight-loss responses to a high-protein, low-carbohydrate [(LC) ketogenic] and those to a high-protein, medium-carbohydrate [(MC) nonketogenic] diet in obese men feeding ad libitum.

Design: Seventeen obese men were studied in a residential trial; food was provided daily. Subjects were offered 2 high-protein (30% of energy) ad libitum diets, each for a 4-wk period—an LC (4% carbohydrate) ketogenic diet and an MC (35% carbohydrate) diet—randomized in a crossover design. Body weight was measured daily, and ketosis was monitored by analysis of plasma and urine samples. Hunger was assessed by using a computerized visual analogue system.

Results: Ad libitum energy intakes were lower with the LC diet than with the MC diet [P = 0.02; SE of the difference (SED): 0.27] at 7.25 and 7.95 MJ/d, respectively. Over the 4-wk period, hunger was significantly lower (P = 0.014; SED: 1.76) and weight loss was significantly greater (P = 0.006; SED: 0.62) with the LC diet (6.34 kg) than with the MC diet (4.35 kg). The LC diet induced ketosis with mean 3-hydroxybutyrate concentrations of 1.52 mmol/L in plasma (P = 0.036 from baseline; SED: 0.62) and 2.99 mmol/L in urine (P < 0.001 from baseline; SED: 0.36).

Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets.

Key Words: Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets • weight loss • high-protein diets • body composition


And here is the news report

Monday, January 21, 2008

By Joene Hendry

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A study in obese men suggests that a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet is most effective for curbing hunger and promoting weight loss.

High-protein intake promotes satiety and, when combined with very low carbohydrate intake, causes the body to use fat reserves, often resulting in short-term weight loss, the researchers note in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

"Hunger is one of the main reasons diets fail, thus understanding more about appetite control during dieting will allow us to design diets that achieve weight loss, without feeling hunger," Dr. Alexandra M. Johnstone told Reuters Health.

Johnstone, of the Rowett Research Institute in Aberdeen, United Kingdom, and colleagues compared hunger, appetite, and weight loss measures in 17 obese men. The men, aged 38 years on average, lived in a nutrition laboratory setting while they participated in two short-term diet interventions.

The men could freely chose the amount of food they ate from carefully prepared daily meals containing 30 percent of energy from protein and either low-carbohydrate content (4 percent) or medium-carbohydrate content (35 percent), plus respective fat contents of 66 percent and 35 percent.

During the first 4-week period, the men were randomly assigned to the high-protein, low-carbohydrate meals or the high-protein, moderate-carbohydrate meals. They then followed a month-long fixed, mandatory maintenance diet before crossing over to the opposite carbohydrate-level diet for a second 4-week period.

While weight-loss occurred with both diets, the high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet resulted in greater weight loss and less hunger.

The investigators are using these findings to help them further assess the brain's link with hunger in follow-up studies utilizing brain imaging.

The current results, Johnstone and colleagues say, confirm that high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets result in satiety and weight loss, but they suggest that high-protein diets only be followed for short periods and under medical supervision as they are not suitable for everyone.

SOURCE: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, January 2008

Machka 

I am hypoglycemic. If I don't consume an adequate amount of protein during the day, I am very irritable, cranky, dizzy, nauseated, and I consume massive quantities of carbs to try to compensate.

I have also discovered that a craving for something sweet means I need to eat something with protein. The reason for this is because a craving for something sweet means my blood sugar levels have dropped off and I'm in the very early stages of hypoglycemia (or in cycling terms, the early stages of a bonk). If I eat something with protein, my blood sugar levels rise and stabilize. If I eat something sweet, 30 minutes later I'm crashing again, and need to eat again. If I don't have protein on hand, it'll end up being something sweet, and 30 minutes later I will need to eat again ... and if I'm eating something sweet every 30 minutes, that's not good for my figure.

So yes, there is definitely something to be said for consuming protein as a part of any diet, but especially a weightloss diet. However, I have trouble with diets which are predominantly protein. There needs to be a balance.

One of my favorite things to eat lately, when I get home from my classes and workout in the middle of the afternoon, is a bun with cheese and cold meat. The calorie count isn't high ... today's bun/cheese/meat probably ran about 240 calories ... but it kept me going and feeling good for the next 3 hours. A 500 calorie donut probably wouldn't have kept me going for so long.

My weekend favorite, when I'm working on the weekends, is the TacoTime soft beef taco - ground beef, cheese, lettuce, tomatoes on a soft tortilla ... 258 calories, but keeps me on my feet and working for several hours without feeling weak or hungry.
https://www.tacotimecanada.com/pdf/nutrition.pdf

Roody

My own experiences are similar to Machka's, and to the results of the second study. As for the first study, I had similar results in that indicators of heart disease went down when I lost weight--but more perhaps as a result of losing weight itself, rather than from the composition of my diet.

What I'm taking away from the two studies is that it's probably comforting to eat a lot of protein when you're dieting, but a high protein diet in itself won't cause you to lose more weight.

Roody

The fat contents are very different in the two diets. They could have called the low-carb diet a high-fat diet, and they could have called the medium-carb diet a low-fat diet. Fat metabolism is so complex and important, I wonder if it could account for some of the differences in the results?

Hartmann

These dieting studies seem to come out at a rate of one every month and they all seem to contradict the previous one. I got into a sedentary job at one point and gained 40 lbs in a year. I struggled for 3 more years to lose it. I tried all of the diets and in the end I went to nutritionist who put me on a balanced diet of whole foods and some animal derived proteins. That along with a sensible exercise routine that focused more on burning fat calories than carbs I lost weight at a rate of 2-3 lbs per week. in 5 months I was back to my ideal weight and have maintained it since.

Carbonfiberboy 

I've been around the same merry-go-round as Machka. A friend of mine had her mother die of heart disease. She immediately went on a very low fat diet, and convinced me to do the same. A very low fat vegetarian diet. Dr. Ornish and all that business. Bought the book, drank the Koolaid.

After maybe two months of that, I started having severe blood sugar swings. I'd get low blood sugar, get dizzy, break out in a sweat, couldn't think, etc., so I'd eat some high carb thing and be OK for about 2 hours and then crash again. Glycemic index didn't matter much. Up and down I'd go. I finally went to the doctor and got a glucose tolerance test. The diabetes nurse said my pancreas was in a bad way and I better cut it out. "Eat fat!" she said. "Eat cheese! Put a log on the fire!"

That was before I started biking. Biking might have helped me smooth it out, but in any case I went back to about a 20% fat diet and very gradually got over whatever the name is for what went wrong with my system. I'm fine today as long as I combine carbs and exercise. If I'm not actually working out, I need to combine carbs with fat and protein. I've gradually replaced some of the fat in my diet with protein.

hillcranker

Higher protein diets do nothing but give more calories and throw off your metabolic processes.
Your body can only metabolize so much protein in a given day via the liver and the kidneys. Forcing more protein through is taxing on the liver and when the kidneys recieve the excess nitrogen-ammonia-urea it considers this toxic.
In order to maintain weight loss do not push your protein too high, as there is no benefit. rather, keep your protein adequate (notice the word choice) and focus on your carbohydrate and fat intakes. lower your animal derived fat sources first (dairy and meat) including whey protein (which by the way doesn't work, your body adequately recieves the needed 1.5g from milk sources daily--if you consume fat-free dairy. so not supplementation is necessary)
then focus on your cooking oil choices, and go for the monounsaturated olive oil but be careful b/c 96% of the caloric value from olives is fat--a little goes a long way.

ModoVincere

Little bit of disonance in your post there. Cut down on Dairy? And yet get adequate protein from Dairy at the same time? And by the way, the majority of protein in milk is whey and casein. Whey is quickly absorbed while casein forms a sort of protein ball in the stomach and is passed to gut and absorbed at a much slower rate. Both proteins are broken down into their constituent amino acids and metabolized as needed by the body. Also, a good quality whey supplement will not have much fat as that has been removed from the product.
Also, are saying there is only a need for 1.5g of fat/day or 1.5g of protein/day? Last I heard, the body needed about 60-70g/day of protein to maintain a reaonable nitrogen balance and to maintain proper function of the immune system.

Nickel

Milk is also 80% casein I think which is why whey supplementation is more popular after a lifting session than eating a normal meal (which has a mixture of things including fat which will slow down protein absorption).

RHoude

I went on a medically monitored high-protein low-calory diet and lost 100lbs in three weight loss cycles (295 to 155, 165 to 135 then 145 to 195) over a 5-year period. The program was done in parallel with the adoption of a more active lifestyle (cycling, walking and cross-country skiing). I have now stabilized my weight at 205-210 lbs. Body fat levels went from 32% down to 21%. The diet has worked really well for me and the weight loss has been permanent.

You have to be careful on such diets. They can really screw-up your cardio-vascular system, thereby the medical monitoring (on a weekly basis for me). Also, the diet has to be followed-up with a drastic change in eating habits. You can never go back to your old diet, unless you really want to throw the weight loss out the window and have to start all over again.

Cheers from Montreal,

McSpin

Recommendations on diet seem to vary more than any other subject. Most work to a degree under the right circumstances. What helped me the most was a book called "Life Without Bread".

My past: For decades I've struggled being a skinny guy with a pot belly - only about 30 lbs overweight. I tried dieting by eating low fat and calorie restriction - it never worked. I struggled to lose even a few pounds. My blood sugar sky rocketed and crashed many times every day. I was constantly starving on this type of eating pattern and I didn't lose weight. It seemed like I was forced to eat every few hours or I couldn't take another step. I tried weight training to help and found that I got stronger, but gained almost no muscle mass. I remained a fat skinny guy.

After applying the principles in the book I mentioned, my body has transformed. My blood sugar stabilized. I now never get hungry - at least not like before. I am usually reminded to eat, not by my hunger, but by the time of day. I lost 35 pounds and actually gained a several pounds of muscle without even trying. Body fat is 7-8% measured with calipers at several points. The pot belly I despised is totally gone. I'm 53 and my body has never looked this good. I carry more muscle than I ever did and about the same fat level I had at 16. My blood pressure went from an average of 135/80 to an average of 112/63. I have a monitor at home and check it weekly. My HDL went up to 65 and my LDL went down to 91. Triglicerides went way down to 64. My resting pulse is 45-48. If I could be healthier, I'm not sure how.

The diet: The principles in the book want you to eat approximately 76 g of carbs per day. I usually eat about 100 grams since I'm very active and I think this results in needing a bit more. The book advises adjusting your carb intake from the 76 g, according to your body and activity level. This is still quite a drop for me from an average of 300-400 grams on my low-fat diet. This equates to about 15% carbs. My protein intake is approximately 35% and fat calories account for around 50%. I eat plenty of saturated fats from eggs, milk, cheese and meats. I round it out with lots seeds, nuts and olive oil on my salads.The carbs I get are from non-starchy vegetables, and no more than one piece of fruit each day. I seldom eat grains and never any that aren't whole grains.

It took a few weeks for my body to adjust to this diet, but since then, it's been so easy to maintain that I still can't believe it. I feel better than I ever have. Even as a young child, my blood sugar fluctuated wildly every day. This is the first time in my life that I can go through a day and not feel like I'm going to melt into the floor at some point. The hardest part isn't cravings that I always had on other diets, it's just the constant exposure to high carb foods that I know I like. Society is always pushing something in your face that is not good for you. I think the big advantage to this diet is the fact that it allows a moderate amount of good carbs. The extremely low-carb diets seem almost impossible to stick with long term. This diet allows plenty of good foods that have some carbs and help satisfy this desire. One day each weekend, I allow myself 150 grams of carbs - that way I can have a beer and a slice of pizza. Fortunately, my corner pizza shop make whole wheat crust an option, so I get one that contains carbs that are at least a bit more healthy.

My wife did not follow this diet when I first started it. She simply refused to give up the carbs she craved. After a few months of seeing what it was doing for me, she switched to it and is now seeing the same results. She too is now in the best shape of her life. Now, if I can only get my kids to give it a try. Unfortunately, they still look at me like I'm nuts.

Carbonfiberboy 

More info please . . . How many hours/week do you ride? How much of that time is at or above LT? Thanks.

At this season, I ride or otherwise workout aerobically about 10 hrs./week, and try to do over an hour/week at or over LT. That will go up as days get longer. I don't think I could ride at this level on that diet, but maybe I'm wrong.

McSpin

The only riding I do in the winter around here, is on a trainer. Here it's bitter cold with lots of snow. When not riding the trainer, I jog on a treadmill and lift weights using circuit training - no rests - very aerobic. Total about 8-10 week. When the weather's good, I lift less and spend more time outside on the bike - probably 4-6 hours a week. I don't have a heart monitor, so I'm never sure when I'm at or near LT, but I would describe my rides as "hard". I'm out for the exercise, not the scenery. I'm not a competitive rider and things might be different if I rode and trained like one.

The first few weeks on this diet, I had a distinct lack of energy. I didn't think it was going to work. From what I've read, my body was adjusting from using glucose as a fuel, to using fat. I almost gave up on the diet before things changed. Now, I seem to have plenty of energy for all my workouts. I still try to eat before I ride and it does includes some carbs, but amazingly I don't bonk like I would when I was a high carb eater. Keep in mind that my rides are almost never over 2 hours and I don't know what would happen on long distances. I suspect I would have to simply eat more and make sure I didn't wait until I was out of energy before I ate.

The book explains things in detail on a cellular level. What I got from it, was that your body is capable of making it's own carbs if your eating adequate amounts of protein and fat. You must also allow enough time for your catabolic hormones to build up and take effect. It seems to have worked for me. However, even if I couldn't ride as hard, I wouldn't change the diet. The difference it has made on my 53 year old body and how I feel is way too good to give up.

Xanthippus

Repeat after me folks... fat does not make you fat.

Calories in, calories out. Fat phobia does more harm than good; even saturated fat is essential to maintenance of health.

McSpin

According to this book, that is not totally true. It says that a body in fat-burning mode, will actually use some of it's calories to convert fat into energy than someone getting their energy from carbs. This means that you can eat more fat calories than carb calories to end up with the same net calories. The other pronounced advantages to fat calories, is that you will not get nearly as hungry when the carbs are kept low. I can verify this. Hunger is much less on the low carb diet.

ModoVincere

yeah, but fat has 9Kcals/gm vs 4Kcals/gm for Carbs and proteins. This means that ounce for ounce, fat is a much more calorie dense food than either protein or carbs. Look at cheesecake...a regular size slice normally has something like 800Kcals in it. A slice of angel food cake, maybe 200 Kcals.

Protein has the added benefit of needing modification if being metabolized for energy. Proteins get broken down into their constituent amino acids to be absorbed into the blood stream. A portion of the protein these amino acids are used to form hormones and rebuild proteins in cells. The remainder has to be modified via deamination which requires some energy to accomplish. In addition to the energy used to de-aminate the amino acids, the resulting amonia has to be converted to urea and expelled from the body. This requires additional energy to accomplish. The net result is an available energy of 3.8 or so Kcals from each grm of protein consumed beyond that needed to maintain protein sufficient status.

McSpin

I even find that to be an advantage for the high fat diet. I can feel satisfied on a much smaller amount of food. I don't get bloated and I feel far more comfortable while exercising than I did on the high carb diet, where I had to eat a much higher volume to even come close to feeling satisfied. It's odd how my hunger seemed to only be satisfied on high carb foods when I had overeaten quite a bit. Whereas, with high fat, I am full very quickly and it seems difficult to overeat on the high fats and proteins.

ModoVincere

Probably associated with grehlin and perhaps GLP1 hormonal responses.

Ryan Ron

Our body has to burn a lot of calories to break down the RAW fruits & vegetables so basically we are losing weight fast every time while we eat fruits & vegetables and people whose diets are dominant in fruits & veggies tend to lose weight faster …

miami hcg diet

Chaco

If you have weight problems, it would behoove yourself to find out if you've got blood sugar problems. These problems don't affect everyone, but with the prevalence of sugar-laden and HFCS foods, it is becoming fairly common. By "sugar problems", I mean consistent sugar levels above 100, or spikes after meals that pass 140. When your blood sugar level is higher than that, damage occurs. If you are insulin resistant, or have damaged beta cells, or have some other underlying problem metabolizing carbs, then a low-carb, high fat (notice -- not high protein) diet may be very beneficial to your health.

Many people think that low carb automatically means high protein. Yes, there is a good amount of protein, but fat plays a far more important role in this type of diet. My diet, for example, consists of around 80 grams of carbs, 150 grams of protein, and 240 grams of fat. There are days when I do eat more carbs though. For example every Saturday, I ride around 65 miles at just under 17 mph, and during the ride itself, I consume and extra 50 grams of carbs, as well as another 50 grams + 25 grams of protein in a shake immediately after the ride.

If you want to read a lot more about this, I highly recommend Diet 101: The Truth About Low Carb Diets, by Jenny Ruhl. It's one of the few books I've read that is "pro" low-carb, but doesn't resort to hyperbole or false promises. And there is a detailed discussion about blood sugar, how to measure it, what the risks are, and how to develop a diet that is suited to your circumstances and that you can stick with the rest of your life.