Losoccer14

So I have search the forums and have not found any great answers. I have also searched the internet, and there is such a high Corporate influence I can not get a great answer. So I will ask this here. I am 24, 5'9" and now weigh 168lbs, down from 180lbs a month ago. I am a former College soccer player, still actively play. I also used to lift 5 days a week. In the past couple weeks I have really taken to road biking, competitive group rides, 40-50 miles averaging 25+mph. I have been logging around 150-200 miles a week, and anticipate this number going up. I am still lifting 3 days a week but have changed it to a circuit weight routine with lots of reps at low weight to tone rather than build. Ok, enough background info, here is the question....

how much protein should I be taking in? I do very well on my carbs, and eat very healthy overall on a balanced diet. But Protein is something I have always been told to get as much as possible, is this be counterproductive to any biking?

VanceMac

Searching this sub-forum, for posts by "Dannoxyz" that contain "protein" will give you everything you need.

Click here.

Losoccer14

thanks

Tabagas_Ru

Here is an ineresting write up and abstract on amino acids (BCAA's) and what happens when you take them during a workout. In this case the study looked at bicycling.


As well here is an interesting article on protein.


Reuters Health

Monday, July 30, 2007

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Athletes who consume branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) while working out may prevent muscle breakdown during moderate endurance exercise, a new study confirms.

BCAAs include the amino acids leucine, isoleucine, and valine, which are found in dairy foods and meat. Some athletes use supplements containing BCAAs to boost strength and endurance.

Past research has found that BCAAs can help prevent muscle breakdown during prolonged exercise, but the exact amount needed to obtain this effect is not clear, Dr. Keitaro Matsumoto of Otsuka Pharmaceutical Company in Saga, Japan and colleagues note.

To identify the most effective dosage, Matsumoto and his team had four men and four women complete three 20-minute cycling sessions, pedaling at half their maximum intensity, with a 15-minute break between each session.

During the first exercise session, volunteers consumed a drink containing 2 grams of BCAAs and 0.5 gram of arginine, or a placebo beverage, 10 minutes into their workout. Arginine is another type of amino acid believed to boost the release of growth hormone and insulin.

Two weeks later, study participants repeated the experiment, and those who originally consumed the BCAA-arginine drink switched to placebo and vice versa.

Blood concentration and muscle absorption of BCAAs rose when the exercisers took the supplement, the researchers found, while muscle protein breakdown was reduced.

The findings suggest that taking BCAA just before exercise can effectively slow the protein break-down triggered by endurance exercise at a modest intensity, Matsumoto and colleagues note. However, they conclude, more research is needed to determine if adding arginine to BCAA will enhance its muscle-protecting effects.

SOURCE: International Journal of Sports Medicine, June 2007.


Abstract

This study aimed at evaluating the effect of a single oral intake of branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) with Arg on skeletal muscle protein metabolism during moderate exercise in young individuals. Eight healthy volunteers (4 males and 4 females, means ± SEM, 26 ± 1 yrs, 177.8 ± 3.7 cm, 72.6 ± 3.9 kg) were studied in a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled cross-over trial. The subjects performed 3 bouts of 20-min cycling exercise (5-min break between each bout) at 126 ± 13 W corresponding to 50 % of the maximal work intensity. A single oral supplement of either a BCAA drink containing 2 g of BCAA and 0.5 g of Arg or an isocaloric placebo drink was given at 10 min of the 1st exercise bout. Both arterial and venous blood samples were simultaneously taken from the radial artery and the femoral vein, respectively. Blood flow in the femoral artery was determined using the ultrasound Doppler technique. The blood sampling and blood flow measurements were performed at rest, every 10 min during each exercise bout. Net balance of BCAA and Phe across the leg muscles were measured by the arteriovenous difference method. The BCAA ingestion resulted in increases in both the plasma BCAA concentration and BCAA uptake into the working leg. The Phe release from the leg during exercise significantly increased as compared to the basal level in the placebo trial (0.97 ± 0.28 vs. 0.23 ± 0.22 µmol/min, p < 0.05). In the BCAA trial, the cumulative Phe release from the leg during the 3rd exercise bout was significantly lower than that in the placebo trial (5.0 ± 7.4 vs. 35.9 ± 13.2 µmol/25 min, p < 0.05). These results suggest that endurance exercise at moderate intensity enhances proteolysis in working muscles, and a single oral intake of 2 g of BCAA with Arg at onset of exercise effectively suppresses exercise-induced skeletal muscle proteolysis.

Losoccer14

both good scientific studies, thanks

andre nickatina

75g a day is a good starting point. Remember - consuming too MUCH protein is just about as bad as not enough.

https://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_d...sid=1906978374 Lectures from UC Berkeley on Nutrition... good place to go. There's a lecture on protein there.

timmhaan

add up the protein that you're currently eating and see where you stand.

according to this, you probably don't need more than about 100g per day...which isn't too hard to get.

https://www.cptips.com/protein.htm

Univega

This is not my writing. From Dr. John Berardi website:

Protein Prejudice
By John M Berardi
First published at www.t-mag.com, Mar 7 2003.

I was in the lab the other day, playing researcher, when an aggressive and self-assured undergraduate student burst in through an unlocked door.

"Excuse me. Is there anyone around that I can speak to about protein?"

Apparently, since the sign outside our door reads "University of Western Ontario, Exercise Nutrition Laboratory," it's clear to everyone that there's an exercise and nutrition help desk inside that's dedicated to dropping everything at a moment's notice to answer any and all questions.

"I guess that's me," I sheepishly replied, afraid of what was about to come. "What is it about protein that you want to know?"

"My question is this: Why do all the magazines say that athletes need more protein when it's clear that they don't."

Deep breath…

Rather than debating my precocious friend, I just scratched out "T-mag.com" on a piece of scrap paper and sent him on his merry way. You see, I've long ago given up on the notion that I can somehow change the world's false dietary perceptions one person at a time. When placed in such a position, I try not to launch into a full-blown nutritional diatribe highlighting the fact that arrogance and ignorance should not be combined in the same meal. Or is that protein and carbs? I can never remember.

Instead, I usually try to remind myself that each of us, somewhere along the way, has asked the most famous protein question: "How much protein do athletes need?" And eventually, despite our original protein prejudice, we usually learn that athletes probably should eat more protein than their sedentary counterparts.

Unfortunately though, many simply assume that since Dr Lemon said so, they should just go ahead and consume between 1.6-2.0 grams of protein per kg of body mass and be done with it. After fixing their dietary protein intake in this manner, these individuals usually forget all about protein intake. Well, more correctly, they usually forget about protein intake until, that is, it's time to chastise those uninformed simpletons who eat less protein or it's time to taunt those amino acid wastrels who eat more. But can fixing our dietary protein intake be as simple as so many presume?

Personally, I think not. And that's what this article's all about — figuring out the difference between protein need and optimal protein intake. After all, in this article I'm going to convince you that athletes might actually need less protein than sedentary individuals. That's right, I said less! In addition, I'll persuade you that even if athletes do actually need less protein than sedentary individuals, they should still eat more protein — a lot more.

Need Vs. Optimization

Let's take a moment to examine the most common protein question discussed above — How much protein does an athlete need?

When someone asks this question they're usually trying to figure out how much protein the athlete in question should eat to optimize body composition and performance. But the question, "How much protein does an athlete need?" is a very different one from "How much protein should an athlete consume to improve body composition and athletic performance?" So it's important to distinguish between what someone needs and what's optimal.

In the research world, the word need is in no way associated with optimization. Instead it's defined as the minimum amount necessary in order to prevent deficiency. Therefore, in asking how much protein an athlete needs, you're asking the question "What's the minimum amount of protein an athlete can get away with to prevent wasting and eventual death?"

Since most athletes have access to and usually consume enough protein to stave off death, the common protein question about how much protein an athlete needs is a bad one. This question doesn't address the issue of real importance, the one that addresses what an athlete should consume to improve performance and body composition?

Do Athletes Need More Protein?

While it's obvious that the protein need question is an academic one, I want to address it here because the answer may shock you.

Before we talk about specific numbers, I need to give you a little background on how to measure protein needs. Measuring protein needs in different populations is usually accomplished by the nitrogen balance technique. This technique involves measuring the amount of nitrogen ingested (in protein sources), as well as measuring or estimating the amount of nitrogen excreted in the urine, sweat, and feces.

If the amount of nitrogen going into the body is greater than the amount of nitrogen leaving the body, it's said that the person is in positive nitrogen status. It's then assumed that the surplus protein retained in the body has been used to build up body tissues.

If the amount of nitrogen coming in is equivalent to the nitrogen going out, it's said that the person is in nitrogen balance. It's then assumed that the person is eating just enough protein to prevent deficiency but not enough to build additional tissue.

If the amount of nitrogen going into the body is less than the amount of nitrogen leaving the body, it's said that the person is in negative nitrogen status. It's then assumed that the person is protein deficient and in time they will begin to break down muscle tissue and, eventually, organ mass to provide for their basic amino-acid needs.

It's therefore important to recognize that most protein-need studies look for the protein intakes at which people are in nitrogen balance, or just enough to prevent them from being deficient.

From these nitrogen-balance experiments, it's been recommended that untrained individuals consume 0.8g of protein per kg of body mass to meet their need. Again, this is the amount of protein needed to keep them in balance while staving off the dreaded negative protein status (which can lead to protein malnutrition, muscle and organ wasting, and eventual death).

With respect to athletic needs, the work of Lemon, Tarnopolsky and colleagues has given some indication that athletes do require more protein (Lemon et al 1981, Tarnopolsky et al 1988, Tarmonpolsky et al 1992, Lemon et al 1997). This classic research indicates that during intensive training, strength and endurance athletes may need somewhere between 1.4 - 2.0 g of protein per kg of body mass to maintain nitrogen balance.

But what about all the athletes and weightlifters out there that consume fewer protein grams than the recommended 1.4 - 2.0 g of protein per kg of body mass? If they really needed those 1.4 - 2.0g/kg, wouldn't they be wasting away and dying? Since they're not, they must not need all that protein. What's the deal?

As Rennie and colleagues have pointed out, there are several problems when trying to apply the Lemon and Tarnoposky data to habitual exercisers. First, the studies by Lemon and Tarnopolsky were done on athletes undergoing new training programs. While they were recreationally active before the study began, the training stimulus (strength training in some studies, endurance training in others) was novel, most likely causing a short-term increase in protein need, an increase that would not persist in the long-term (Rennie et al 1999, 2000). In other words, Rennie argues that while a new exercise program (whether strength or endurance exercise) may increase protein need acutely, chronic exercise probably doesn't increase protein need at all.

Now before you start hatin' on Rennie, it's important to understand that this guy is a protein research legend. Type his name into Medline and you'll get a couple hundred protein-related research publications. Beyond his excellent reputation, his ideas do have both theoretical and research support. Specifically, the research of Butterfield and Calloway suggests that athletes may actually need less protein due to an increase in protein efficiency that may accompany chronic training (Butterfield and Calloway 1984). What this means is that athletes may actually get more efficient in their protein use (i.e. increased anabolic efficiency) and therefore may need less protein than the 0.8g/kg required for sedentary individuals!

Is this Rennie guy crazy? Probably not! Then why do his comments fly in the face of what athletes and weightlifters know; namely that a higher-protein diet helps pack on muscle mass and helps promote a favorable body composition? Well, actually, they don't! If you think so, you haven't taken a lesson from our earlier discussion. Namely, you're still confusing need with optimization.

An athlete may need less protein to stay alive but he/she should consume more protein to optimize performance and body composition. Therefore, when I'm asked how much protein an athlete needs, my best response is that it doesn't matter! Asking "How much protein does an athlete need?" is much like asking the question "How much does a student need to study for an exam?" Since a student only needs to pass their exam to remain a student, the proper answer would be "however much it takes to score a 60%." However, very few students want to earn only a 60%. Therefore the best question would be "How much does a student need to study to get an A on their exam?"

Optimization of Protein Intake

In the above section, I've indicated that athletes may actually need fewer protein grams per day than the typical sedentary dose of 0.8g/kg. Actually, the Butterfield study suggests an exact number: 0.65g/kg.

In calculating the exact amount of protein they might recommend to maintain nitrogen balance, a 200lb athlete who trains consistently would find that they only need a measly 59g of protein to prevent nitrogen losses and protein malnutrition.

So, for those of you who staunchly believe that you're only required to eat enough protein to meet your needs,go right ahead and reduce your protein intake from 2.0g/kg to 0.65g/kg. In the meantime, I'll be encouraging everyone else to actually increase his or her protein intake beyond the current 2.0g/kg recommendation.

If this recommendation seems excessive, it's because you have a narrow view of how protein fits into one's dietary strategy. You're looking at protein in the same narrow way that people used to look at vitamin C; essential at a specific dose but conferring no additional benefits with a higher intake.
With vitamin C, we all know it's important to consume enough of it (at least 10mg/day) to prevent scurvy. However, it's also commonly known there are a host of health benefits associated with much higher doses (200mg/day or more) including a reduced risk of cancer, increased HDL cholesterol, reduced risk of coronary artery disease, and a reduced duration of cold episodes and severity of symptoms.

Like vitamin C, instead of thinking of protein as a macronutrient that provides no benefit beyond preventing protein deficiency, we need to recognize the benefits of eating protein (at any dose).

Increased Thermic Effect of Feeding — While all macronutrients require metabolic processing for digestion, absorption, and storage or oxidation, the thermic effect of protein is roughly double that of carbohydrates and fat. Therefore, eating protein is actually thermogenic and can lead to a higher metabolic rate. This means greater fat loss when dieting and less fat gain during overfeeding.

Increased Glucagon — Protein consumption increases plasma concentrations of the hormone glucagon. Glucagon is responsible for antagonizing the effects of insulin in adipose tissue, leading to greater fat mobilization. In addition, glucagon also decreases the amounts and activities of the enzymes responsible for making and storing fat in adipose and liver cells. Again, this leads to greater fat loss during dieting and less fat gain during overfeeding.

Increased IGF-1 — Protein and amino-acid supplementation has been shown to increase the IGF-1 response to both exercise and feeding. Since IGF-1 is an anabolic hormone that's related to muscle growth, another advantage associated with consuming more protein is more muscle growth when overfeeding and/or muscle sparing when dieting.

Reduction in Cardiovascular Risk — Several studies have shown that increasing the percentage of protein in the diet (from 11% to 23%) while decreasing the percentage of carbohydrate (from 63% to 48%) lowers LDL cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations with concomitant increases in HDL cholesterol concentrations.

Improved Weight-Loss Profile — Brand spankin' new research by Layman and colleagues has demonstrated that reducing the carbohydrate ratio from 3.5 - 1 to 1.4 - 1 increases body fat loss, spares muscle mass, reduces triglyceride concentrations, improves satiety, and improves blood glucose management (Layman et al 2003 — If you're at all interested in protein intake, you've gotta go read the January and February issues of the Journal of Nutrition. Layman has three interesting articles in the two journals).

Increased Protein Turnover — As I've discussed before in my article Precision Nutrition, all tissues of the body, including muscle, go through a regular program of turnover. Since the balance between protein breakdown and protein synthesis governs muscle protein turnover, you need to increase your protein turnover rates in order to best improve your muscle quality. A high protein diet does just this. By increasing both protein synthesis and protein breakdown, a high protein diet helps you get rid of the old muscle more quickly and build up new, more functional muscle to take its place.

Increased Nitrogen Status — Earlier I indicated that a positive nitrogen status means that more protein is entering the body than is leaving the body. High protein diets cause a strong positive protein status and when this increased protein availability is coupled with an exercise program that increases the body's anabolic efficiency, the growth process may be accelerated.

Increased Provision of Auxiliary Nutrients — Although the benefits mentioned above have related specifically to protein and amino acids, it's important to recognize that we don't just eat protein and amino acids — we eat food. Therefore, high protein diets often provide auxiliary nutrients that could enhance performance and/or muscle growth. These nutrients include creatine, branched chain amino acids, conjugated linoleic acids, and/or additional nutrients that are important but remain to be discovered. This illustrates the need to get most of your protein from food, rather than supplements alone.

Looking over this list of benefits, isn't it clear that getting lots of protein would be advantageous to anyone's training goals? Since a high protein diet can lead to a better health profile, an increased metabolism, improved body composition, and an improved training response, why would anyone ever try to limit their protein intake to the bare minimum necessary to stave off malnutrition?

It seems to me that whether someone's on a hypoenergetic diet or a hyperenergetic diet, the one macronutrient they would want to be sure to overeat would be protein. Instead, their protein prejudice often leads most trainees to look for what they consider the bare minimum of protein, and then overeat carbohydrates and fats instead. That's a big performance and body composition mistake.

I have yet to meet a healthy man or woman that couldn't use more protein in his or her diet. It's high time we drop our prejudiced attitude toward protein and start giving it the respect it deserves.

Now get outta my lab — I've got work to do and you've gotta go eat some protein.

Losoccer14

I am beginning to realize that what I had expected is true. There is no "correct" answer, it is dependent on what study you read or who you talk to. Having a science background I enjoyed the studies. I think I will end up cutting my protein intake and increasing carbs from this point on. I finally decided to track everything I eat. Today was the first day, keep in mind it was a day off for riding. I had a lot of dairy and chicken today total of 1600 calories, 29% Carb, 37% Fat, and 34% protein. Looking to get to a 60/20/20 on off days and 80/5/15 on long ride days. Also increasing the total calorie intake on ride days

Univega

Here is a good article for you:

https://www.sportsnutritionsociety.or...-1-7-27-06.pdf

It is a bit long, but well worth your time to read.

I have to ask: Are you looking to lose weight? You said:

“150-200 miles a week, and anticipate this number going up. I am still lifting 3 days a week but have changed it to a circuit weight routine with lots of reps at low weight to tone rather than build. Ok, enough background info, here is the question....

how much protein should I be taking in? I do very well on my carbs, and eat very healthy overall on a balanced diet. But Protein is something I have always been told to get as much as possible, is this be counterproductive to any biking?”
You are obviously very active. At 1600 calories a day, you will continue to lose. My cycling made me lose weight and people started to tell me I looked skinny. I had to up my calories with increased food and now I am able to maintain my weight.

I strived for a bit more protein than you. I try to eat carbs only after I exercise. Then it is mostly a protein source and vegetables. But your goals are probably not the same as mine.

Losoccer14

yeah I was at 170 in college during soccer season, but that was still a bit thicker with the upperbody than what I would like now. I got up to 180 during the winter, have dropped back to 170 but would prefer to get down to 160-165, I have a spare 10 lbs at least to get rid of without compromising muscle.

mazpr

I found this link on the forums.


https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...light=Arginine


Asking about nutrition is sometimes a debateable subject.

Here is what I follow from reading different books, magazines, online etc.

I take L-Arginine, Ornithine, Carnitine, Omega 3, Lysine. Once again this is how I follow it; 1 gram of protein per KILOGRAM (at least) so in your case 85 grams a day. I dont suggest to follow anything I say, instead I am just telling you what I do, pick up what you like and leave the rest.

How will you know when you are taking too much protein? One way is by constipation. It all depends, taking more water, mixing it up with more greens like lettuce etc.

When do I take them?

Usually is split up during the day as the body needs a certain amount of fuel for a time period so taking more will just go to waste at any time period. I do try to take more at least within an hour of finishing working out when the body will absorb them the most.

Where do I get protein from?

Egg whites, tuna, especially Albacore that has the highest levels of protein intake.

Me personally I dont read too much into what is said on the web, I prefer to go to a library and find an old book by Arnold, Lee Haney, Franco Columbu, Mike Mentzer, Frank Zane, etc. I would just read bits and pieces from the nutrition section, I will never forget a picture of Arnold all sweaty on a bench eating tuna straight from the can. Also I have heard many negative things about it, I still consume it and everytime I go to the doctor for all my yearly checkups I score high on good cholesterol, my blood pressure is normal, hemoglobin and hematocrites count all by the book. I have to sometimes donate blood at least yearly because I eat so much greens that the Hb levels are high and from what I have read donating blood is a good thing to as you force the body to regenerate red blood cells bla bla bla... I still do it as it is a good thing to do anyway.

Why do I say about reading the classic books instead of what is found on online?

Today their are so many companies selling junk that its difficult to tell what is right or not. Reading into old books at least sports were not that corrupt, marketing was still on baby steps, all this crazy media about creatine, Andro poppers, tribulus etc was non existent.

So according to my doctor I am not doing anything wrong and just keep doing the same as it is working so far. My dad had a heart stroke, my grandfather died of a heart attack so you can tell that I keep an eye very well as heart diseases is part of my family.


Also, check out this link as well; https://www.roadcycling.com/news/article1411.shtml

nickthaquick1

ive been told 1-1.5g of protein per pound of your weight. right now i weigh 184 and am 6'1", so ill try and get somewhere between 180 and 210g of protein. this may sound like a lot but with a protein shake, egg white omlet in the morning, and a about a pound of chicken breast (@ 27g protein per 3 oz.) its a pretty easy goal. keep in mind you must have essential vitamins, carbs, and fruits and veggies in there as well...


fyi i am more of a weigh lifter who cycles once in a while

John R

Watch out for Tuna, Tuna has a high mercury content. Check out this web sight https://www.gotmercury.org/article.php?list=type&type=75

pedalada

If you can casually toss off 40-50 miles at a 25+ mph average there is probably nothing wrong with your current diet.

EatMyA**

high reps, short rest, and more frequent workouts, are the things that require the most protein.

1.This is where people go wrong a cyclist traveling 200+ miles weekly NEEDS more protein than a say a bodybuilder doing some German Volume training of 10 sets of 10. And definitely more than a powerlifter or olympic lifter needs. but there is a LIMIT on the protein you can absorb PER DAY.

2. Here is the secret. are you ready? Protein ABSORPTION means ****. The trick is protein CONSUMPTION. Consume protein throughout the day OK? like 8 times daily. even if its just 3grams but keep a constant consumption.w

3. start with 100-125 grams of protein per day. thats actually very easy to do. Just make sure you consume it throughout the whole day.

GOOD LUCK!

Jarery

Just stay away from canned Albacore. Light Tuna (skipjack) is less than 1/3 the mercury content of Albacore. And albacore is what i was raised to believe was the best

But i usually buy canned salmon. Much better

MattyNJ

....I concur. Banging out 50+ miles at a 25mph avg? Your doing just fine!

I struggle to avg. 18 on 50 mile rides...Do you have a tail wind both ways?

cleansheet

24? Crap, I wanted to add you to my roster. I manage/play (torn ACL-surgery next week) on an Over-30 team. I do 100+ miles a week at 17 MPH and my teammates think I am some sort of physical freak.

MattyNJ

I think he may be logging those stats on a mountain
descent
.....either that or "rounding up".

fietser_ivana

There's a book out that answers every conceivable question re protein. Very aptly called "The Protein Book" written by Lyle McDonald (same author wrote The Keto Book).

The absolute minimum you need does NOT equal OPTIMUM intake. So, I'm agreeing with Berardi.
However: i'd add this personal experience: I do just fine on 2gP /kg BW on an average but really like the following approach: hike up intake really high on training days and lower intake on off days to the tune of 1.5g/kg BW vs. 2.5g/kg BW. This prevents getting ultimately bored with eating so much protein.
If you tolerate dairy , it's an excellent idea to add protein powder to your sports drink bottle in a proportion of like 1:4 for P:C.

The_Spaniard

i will say 1 gram of protein per pound is more than enough, since you take in allot of protein please use a high quality. Also taking a big amount of protein can damage the liver so i suggest also taking milk thistle or making sure your protein powder has a good amount of digestive enzymes. Remember protein from food is better than protein from powder. But im assuming you know that most people do. I f you really want to get in depth you can try taking a sports nutrition class and care and prevention of injury class at your local community college. I think that would help you more than most research articles, because you can analyze how your own body works etc. I might have repeated some information form above, sorry i just didnt really feel like takin 30 minutes ot read all those articles, i stopped at the second one heh.

umd

It's per pound of LEAN weight, not absolute weight. You don't need to feed your fat.