ldesfor1@ithaca

I know many of us are starting a strength training routine, so I figured I'd post some squat videos (of myself) on the youtube. Hopefully they help a bit towards helping you attain your squatting goals as I know a good squat takes years to develop.
If it concerns you: I'm nearly 6'4" and 195 lbs. I used to powerlift for about 6 years... I was way stronger then!


Thanks for watching and enjoy the metal!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5s5g4SjKXY

mccook

Looks like you're cutting your reps short. If you're not going past parallel you're not going deep enough. It's also bad for the knees.

ldesfor1@ithaca

thank you for the response. It is responses like these that I was hoping to address.

1. Why is "past parallel" important when training for better power on the bike?

2. What is bad for my knees?

I ask these two questions honestly, but with a bit of doubt of your knowledge.

If anyone cares I'm an ACE certified personal trainer (3 years experience) and in my past have squatted over #550 (below parallel). From 5 years of powerlifting, I have no knee problems or pain to speak of.

This said, I feel competent to offer some advice on this subject and competent enough to question your suggestions and why you made them.

thanks, if you chose to respond.


-Leo

mccook

1. It's important in general. If you're biking or doing any exercise you should be focused on having a balanced body. But specifically, if you squat deep you're going to use more areas of your legs (parts that you use to bike). Not only are you hitting the quads, but the hamstrings and glutes too. You use them when you bike too. It's also better for your overall lower flexibility.

2. This is basic mechanics / physics. The stopping point for the squat when you do not squat to parallel is the front of the thigh and the knee. If you're squatting to parallel or below you are incorporating more of the muscles, reducing the stress on the knee. When you squat shallow you are putting more pressure on the knee when you stop the downward motion of the bar.

Bringing up your training credentials doesn't really impress me. Most personal trainers are terrible at their jobs.

If anyone want to learn how to do proper squats they should pick up Mark
Rippetoe's Starting Strength. There's not a better book out there on the subject for beginners.

ldesfor1@ithaca

McCook, I was not aiming to impress you, or anyone else, but my credentials may be useful in this discussion, and I brought them up to give a bit of weight to my suggestions. But alas, many PTrainers are terrible at their jobs, this makes mine easier.

that said, you make a few nice points, but disagree that you need to go below parallel and that: "if you squat deep you're going to use more areas of your legs (parts that you use to bike)". A full squat, which I also do, is not a similar range of motion as on the bike, at least for me. The ROM (at the knee/hip) that I am using on my squats actually is just a bit more ROM than during my pedal stroke on the bike. My chosen ROM allows for more weight which I hope will translate into more force on the bike.

your second point seems to be a bit disorganized, but I disagree with the idea that stopping short of parallel is dangerous for the knee, at least in my case, although I have heard this brought up before. My patella is behind my toes, if this is your concern. The angle on this video may hide this.



thanks for the useful discussion, though. Seriously.

-Leo

Enthalpic

I think you have already reached Friels max strength goals for cycling (squat 6 reps@1.5 x body weight).

ldesfor1@ithaca

not quite... 295x6 is close though... I'd like 385 for 3... but cant see that happening... no worries.

-L

triplebutted

I don't know but you got me inspired. I did some today at the gym during lunch. But I used the handicapped squat machine (the bar that is on a rail). I only did 1 plate and a 25 on each side and could only do a few squats with my butt as low as I can go.
You da man!

nickthaquick1

hmm...i havnt seen people squatting in the gym using that bench as a guidance as to how low to drop down and i always wondered if i was going to low or not low enough...judging by using this as an example i was going too low? anyway in regards to squatting and benching...if im looking to gain strength should i be upping my weight by 10 pounds each week? i can see this being done in squatting but ive been lifting upper body for about 2 years and my max has only increase 40 or so pounds since day one!! ive seen improvements in how i look as far as size but i dont get it my bench is awful

Smallguy

I see nothing wrong with our Technique..... yes you could go a bit deep to achieve parallel which if memory serves me correctly for power lifting is when you can draw a straight line from where your hip bend to the top of your knee

but you not doing any of the common mistakes like "sitting" on the bench and stressing ou back that most people do when squatting on a bench.

PS props on the 550 that's a serious squat

ldesfor1@ithaca

bench heights vary, do not use a bench as your reference!

I'm 6' 3.5" so the bench is way "lower" to me then to a 5'9" person.

I'm using knee bend (and it's corelation to my kneebend on the bike) as a guide.

Yes I could go lower, as I used to.

I'm going to check out my knee bend on the bike right now to determine if I need to re evaluate my box height. Thanks for the prodding, guys!!

-L

SamDaBikinMan

While a smith (or handicap) machine has its uses it also restricts your body and does not allow for a natural range of motion. Best to work on free standing squats. If need be start with an empty bar to get the range of motion and form correct.

Also, the video is of bench squats which are fine if you have develped good control and proper form. I would worry about a newcomer in that if they misjudge and "impact" onto the bench it can cause a severe back injury by compressing the spinal column.

I also came from a power lifting background and squatted over 500 at a 170 lb body weight. It took about 4 years to get to that level wth proper training. While powerful squats were impressive I found that once I took up cycling I was much better off working with weights that would allow me to do 12 reps or more. I will rarely go over 315 lbs in a squat program now and usually work in the 265-295 range. As my squat plateus I will obviousy increase the weight but never by more than about 10-15%.

Always break into a lifting program with 4 weeks of core building work and light range of motion/form work.
I've just started back and although I can probably hit a 300lb squat right out of the hole for a few reps I will not go over 135 lbs for at least 2 weeks, then 165 for another 2 weeks. This will properly wake up the muscles I've not really used on the bike.

After my break in period I will advance to slightly more weight but typically never increase more than 15% over any two week period. As you begin squatting heavier weight these increments will drop to 10% and even less. Never make large jumps as your body needs time to adapt to increased loads. If you hold good form at 185 lbs then you slap on 250 lbs you may not be able to keep your form and end up with a lower back injury or worse.

Always warm up before doing any weight program, I will do 5 minutes on a trainer or a rower before beginning my lifts. You need to go hard enough to break a good sweat during the warmup period.

Do at least a basic stretching program after the lifting while the muscles are still warm.

SamDaBikinMan

Even te best of the best get injured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8CIF...eature=related

ldesfor1@ithaca

+1

this is exactly what I did too... limped back into it.

Took me 8 weeks to get into some "real" efforts with the squat.

I agree with your statement fully.

thanks.

-L

Smallguy

I've been off serious lifting for over a year I just made it back to the gym the other night

I'm also easing my way back into it

I used to train with very low reps but because of that I'm lacking in muscular endurance

I was thinking working in the 10-15 rep range for cycling this is what is effective for cycling strength rather than power lifting SamDaBikinMan and ldesfor1@ithaca since it seems we have similar training back grounds

SamDaBikinMan

Yep, and to go even further I do 20 or more rep work on leg presses.

Tomorrow will be my third session back on the program. I am sore from sundays workout, did 45 miles sunday morning, did the weights sunday evening. Monday I did a 20 mile gut busting ride (took 56 minutes), today I do a relaxing spin on the trainer for an hour and some upper body work.

Smallguy

any tips on number of sets ?

ldesfor1@ithaca

I'm taking a different approach to lifting for cycling. It may be a waste of time, so take it with a huge grain of salt.

Basically, I'm trying to develop as much force as possible in the weight room (early in the training year) by doing low rep sets (2-3 working sets of 5 reps... hopefully I'll work up to 5x5 @ 1.6xBodyweight). My theory being that the kind of force that I can generate in the weight room cant be replicated on the bike... and that's why I'm using heavy squats to do it. My muscular endurance work will take the form of steep hill work at lower cadences (seated and standing), really grinding out the gears (as opposed to 20-30 reps of squats). This low cadence hill work will take the place of my squat workouts starting in my BASE2 period.
Additionally, I'm doing speed work on fridays in the weight room where I'm doing 5x5 of the hang clean. Again, this is not cycling specific, but I'm hoping to get the fast twitch muscles (and the associated neurological patterns) firing again, as they get very neglected during the season. These speed workouts are nice in that they dont seem to put any soreness in the legs at all, and as such dont take away from Saturday's WO. I'll likely do the cleans until BASE3 when I'll phase them out for more fast twitch bike work (sprints, jumps, form sprints, reaction drills and the like).

The other motions I use in the weight room are rows, SLDL's and tricep work. Core work is always present and hopefully will remain throughout the season.

Basically, I'm adhering to the Friel mantra: General to Specific as the season progresses. I'd like to make the weight room about maximum force production (heaviest weights) and maximum speed production (cleans) even if they're not on the bike. As the season progresses, these WO's will be on the bike.

that said, I cant really recommend heavy sets of 5 OR power cleans for most cyclists, if only from a safety standpoint. My background in powerlifting will hopefully keep me safe, but the risk to benefit ratio is very poor for most.

I'd love to hear bikiniman's perspective on this...

-L

Smallguy

theory seems fairly sound.. guess it depends on if your body responds according to the theory

did you Train Westside barbell when you were powerlifting ?

with me being off lifting for a year I'm gonna make a gradual come back keep my reps high for now....maybe once I'm comfy under the bar again I'll experiment with power phases and endurance phases a bit

I've never really been able to move big numbers despite being a large guy....I took the wrong approach for many years ad ate everything in sight and got fat

now my goal is to get to 200lbs and then hopefully eventually 190 and lean at 5'10

SamDaBikinMan

The power cleans are excellent for explosive power, connective tissue, and shoulder work for posturing on the bike. I do floor to shoulder to get more leg involvement.

As far as the other movements I am in total agreement with Stiff leg deadlifts, barbell rows (far superior to cable rows), and I do dips for triceps.

I will also incorporate upper body work which are unrelated to cycling but I liketo maintain someupper body muscle. I do not particularly care for the Noodle look from the waist up. I'll keep some mass up top so I am balanced even if it means I won't be climbing like the squirrels and walking noodles on the local club rides.

My typical squat regimen will follow this pattern, the weigt listed is for reference only as i will increase or decrease with progression. I will vary the complimentary exercises from the list below the squat chart. I always superset leg curls wit my squats, ie 1 set of leg curls for every set of squats in alternating fashion. Note that as I progress I will begin a power program which ultimately builds the strength base for high reps.

Warm up with 5 minutes of stationary cycling or rowing, then stretch.

2 sessions done per week....

135 x 10-15/ 3 sets wk 1-2
165 x 10-15/ 3 sets wk 3-4
185 x 10-15 x2, 205 x 8-10 x2/ wk 5-6
The next progression levels will alternate a light heavy day, heavy being what is shown on the chart, light being the same weight as weeks 5-6 with the 205 set going until failure for 3 sets.

Heavy day progression, note that I drop the reps here to stimulate power and the light days work high reps as noted above. On heavy days a warm up set of 185 x 10 reps, then 205 x 5 reps will be prerformed. At this point I convert to a watered down version of a powerlifting program but in the end I will be setting my eyes on both a good single rep max and good light weight high reps effort. I drop the alternating leg curls on heavy day but keep them on light day.


225 x 5 x 4 sets/ wk 7
225 x 5 x 5 sets/ wk 8-9
225 x 5 x 1, 245 x 5 x 3/ wk 9-10
245 x 5 x 1, 265 x 5 x 3/ wk 11-12
255 x 5 x 1, 275 x 5 x 3/ wk 13-14
265 x 5 x 1, 285 x 5 x 3/ wk 15-16

Complimentary exercises will change from workout to workout dependng on how I feel but can consist of:

Leg press
Leg extension
Sissy squats
Front squats
Lunges
Leg curls


These are general progression goals which will be subject to change based on performance. The last set of the heavy three set group must go a minimum 3 reps in order for me to progress to the next teir.

By the time this is all said and done I want to be doing 205 for 20 reps for a set on light days. I will attempt a single rep max effort on week 17 after a 2 day rest period following a very light day.

If I meet the above progression my 1 rep max attempt would be as follows

325 attempt 1
345 attempt 2
355 attempt 3

After this I will revert to a light program after a full week of rest for a couple of weeks. If I were to do another cycle my next goal would be 245x20 reps with a single rep max effort of 385-405 lbs.

Just for reference when I squatted my heaviest wieght I did a single rep max of 505 lbs, attempted 525 but fell short on depth, and my high rep effort was a painful 320lbs for 21 reps. My head about exploded on the 320 set on light day. But this was almost 20 years ago at age 24.

This is a program I developed for myself and each individual will learn what works for them after spending some time in the gym.

Happy liftng!

SamDaBikinMan

Oh and my cycling during the weight program will be mainly spinning work for 1-1.5 hour rides a couple of days, one day per week I wll do a hard effort for 1 hour or a longer ride of 2-3 hours.

Once I phase out of weight lifting I'll focus on intervals, hill work, and lactate threshold training. I don't really race anymore but I like to try to get to where I can time trial for 10-15 miles at a 23+ pace and climb in the saddle at a respectable pace.

Wiggle

I had my squat up a 5rm of 275. I had to take a month off though due to developing jumpers knee. Soon I'll be back into it, I hope I didn't lose much strength and also hope to pass 3 plates soon I played it safe and ate enough to gain 5 lbs this month, hopefully that will discourage my muscles from breaking down. Also, winter is coming so I need to be fat to stay warm

Smallguy

ldesfor1@ithaca and SamDaBikinMan do you cycle your gym training with strength and endurance phases??

once I get back in the gym and my body is ready I plan to go into a strength phase for a few months but as I get closer to my first racing season I'll switch to more of and endurance phase

does this make sense to you guys ?

ldesfor1@ithaca

smallguy:

general -> specific as the season progresses.

for me, this means only 12 weeks of heavy squats, then hill repeats at low cadence takes over for my "force" workouts.

MTB riding becomes a great way to train explosive power, too (bunnyhops, steep short climbs and other bike handling necessities).

By the middle of December, all of my work in the weight room will be focused around core strength, pulling movements and hamstring strength... basically doing as much as I can in the weight room without taking away from the bike workouts.

This said, racing is my highest priority AND maximal force production is NOT one of my limiters, so weights are not as important for me as they are for many (many over 35yrs. really benefit from the weights, I hear. I'm only 25, sooooo...).

I'm really glad that I'm lifting now, though and hope to finish up the next 6 weeks with some big squats.

does this help?

-L

SamDaBikinMan

Yes. I will do the 16 week schedule above, then take at least a two week break of easy cardio and biking. Then if I feel like doing another cycle it will also begin with low weights which effectively is an easy program for at least 4 weeks. My second cycle may be shortened to end prior to cycling specific workout season in March.

In all honesty I'm thinking this year I may focus back onto weight training. At least continue a basic progra for legs during cycling season. I always dislike starting over from scratch after 5-6 months of almost exclusively cycling. Simply keeping a program of 5 sets of squats with some support exercises twice per wee could accomplish this.

I no longer race so I'm not worrying about just cycling. If I were stil racing I'd drop the lifting and just focus on th bike come march. Maybe do a weight program once per week but only moderatly.