Very confusing, questions from a noob
08-26-09, 12:23 AM
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Very confusing, questions from a noob
Knowledgeable people please correct/confirm my (mis)understandings about nutrition in regards to cycling. I have spent days reading this particular forum heavily, and although I feel like I get the jist of proper nutrition, I have the feeling that nothing I eat is alright --- and it all seems very complex
1) Your body stores energy in muscles and liver called glycogen. This is worth 2000 calories. It is important to eat plenty of carbohydrates before an intensive ride so this reserve is full. Any riding beyond two hours there should be a replenishment of these carbohydrates (on the bike snacks). After an intensive ride it should be a liquid shake comprised of a 4:1 ratio (Carbs/Protein) for recovery. And if you don't do so after an intensive ride the body MUST replenish the glycogen somehow, even at the expense of hard earned muscle tissue. Do I have this right? I'm worried about perhaps overeating on the recovery carb/protein drink and simply replacing all my hard efforts...but to do that I would have needed to eat more than 2000 calories...?
2) From what I read in this forum it appears as though cycling @ 15MPH or above burns between 20-30 calories per mile. Since I am aiming for weight loss I'm doing my calculations on the underestimate. Is this correct?
3) There are two energy sources being burned when you bike: glycogen and fat. So, if I bike 25 miles (25 miles x 20cals = 500 calories) how much of that is glycogen and how much is fat? How many carbohydrates should I be consuming after a ride such as that? I'm 171 pounds, 5 9 1/2, goal weight 160, and 23 years old.
4) My BMR according to this calculator says 1853. That is if I slept in bed 24 hours a day and did absolutely nothing. I bike intensively (18mph+ at high cadences, flats, and hill climbing) 5-6 days a week with 1-2 days a week for recovery depending on how I'm feeling. I'm putting between 2-3 hours of riding a day and anywhere between 15 to 40 miles each day. According to this calorie calculator I should be eating around 3194 calories per day if I'm exercising moderately 6-7x a week. Now to continue losing 1 pound a week I must eat no more than 2694 calories a day for a 500 calorie deficit. Am I understanding the math correctly here? I believe burning 3194 calories per day seems rather high at my cycling level (above) but I have run through several calculators and they seem to be saying the same thing +/-1-200 calories.
Anyone else get the feeling like they should just abandon reading nutrition guides/forums/etc --- eat small frequent portions throughout the day, stay hydrated, and just bike, forget trying to figure out how to maximize anything? All I want to do is lose another 10-15 pounds but I do not want to be losing any muscle tissue. Sorry for the long post & thank you for reading it.
PS: I have lost 30 pounds over the last 6 months and I feel fitter, stronger, and a lot lighter. I must be doing something right? My lower half of my body is 100% awesome, but I'm worried I'm losing muscle? I can't really tell because I never had a strong well defined upper body, ever, just lean. I think once I'm at my target weight (160) I will begin strength training, even though I know I will gain weight in muscle. I just want to lose the fat first!
1) Your body stores energy in muscles and liver called glycogen. This is worth 2000 calories. It is important to eat plenty of carbohydrates before an intensive ride so this reserve is full. Any riding beyond two hours there should be a replenishment of these carbohydrates (on the bike snacks). After an intensive ride it should be a liquid shake comprised of a 4:1 ratio (Carbs/Protein) for recovery. And if you don't do so after an intensive ride the body MUST replenish the glycogen somehow, even at the expense of hard earned muscle tissue. Do I have this right? I'm worried about perhaps overeating on the recovery carb/protein drink and simply replacing all my hard efforts...but to do that I would have needed to eat more than 2000 calories...?
2) From what I read in this forum it appears as though cycling @ 15MPH or above burns between 20-30 calories per mile. Since I am aiming for weight loss I'm doing my calculations on the underestimate. Is this correct?
3) There are two energy sources being burned when you bike: glycogen and fat. So, if I bike 25 miles (25 miles x 20cals = 500 calories) how much of that is glycogen and how much is fat? How many carbohydrates should I be consuming after a ride such as that? I'm 171 pounds, 5 9 1/2, goal weight 160, and 23 years old.
4) My BMR according to this calculator says 1853. That is if I slept in bed 24 hours a day and did absolutely nothing. I bike intensively (18mph+ at high cadences, flats, and hill climbing) 5-6 days a week with 1-2 days a week for recovery depending on how I'm feeling. I'm putting between 2-3 hours of riding a day and anywhere between 15 to 40 miles each day. According to this calorie calculator I should be eating around 3194 calories per day if I'm exercising moderately 6-7x a week. Now to continue losing 1 pound a week I must eat no more than 2694 calories a day for a 500 calorie deficit. Am I understanding the math correctly here? I believe burning 3194 calories per day seems rather high at my cycling level (above) but I have run through several calculators and they seem to be saying the same thing +/-1-200 calories.
Anyone else get the feeling like they should just abandon reading nutrition guides/forums/etc --- eat small frequent portions throughout the day, stay hydrated, and just bike, forget trying to figure out how to maximize anything? All I want to do is lose another 10-15 pounds but I do not want to be losing any muscle tissue. Sorry for the long post & thank you for reading it.
PS: I have lost 30 pounds over the last 6 months and I feel fitter, stronger, and a lot lighter. I must be doing something right? My lower half of my body is 100% awesome, but I'm worried I'm losing muscle? I can't really tell because I never had a strong well defined upper body, ever, just lean. I think once I'm at my target weight (160) I will begin strength training, even though I know I will gain weight in muscle. I just want to lose the fat first!
Last edited by bicycletothesun; 08-26-09 at 01:05 AM.
08-26-09, 01:10 PM
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I think your "PS" conclusion sounds about right.
One might say that there are two things going on:
1) Getting fitter/lighter
2) Getting faster
#2 is some trickier, and that's where it can pay to get fancy with training.
So rather than worrying about whether fat or protein is going away, you could see if you're getting faster. Time yourself on a long hill, say a 15-20 minute hill. Once a month see how fast you can get up it. Lance had to lose 7 kilos of protein for this year's TdF. If you're not getting faster, you need to change something, otherwise not.
But if it's looks you're after, work more in the gym and measure your waist, arms, and thighs. Prettier is seldom faster but it can be more fun. Depends what you want.
One might say that there are two things going on:
1) Getting fitter/lighter
2) Getting faster
#2 is some trickier, and that's where it can pay to get fancy with training.
So rather than worrying about whether fat or protein is going away, you could see if you're getting faster. Time yourself on a long hill, say a 15-20 minute hill. Once a month see how fast you can get up it. Lance had to lose 7 kilos of protein for this year's TdF. If you're not getting faster, you need to change something, otherwise not.
But if it's looks you're after, work more in the gym and measure your waist, arms, and thighs. Prettier is seldom faster but it can be more fun. Depends what you want.
08-26-09, 04:47 PM
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Your recovery food doesn't have to be liquid or exactly 4:1 carbs-protein. That was the number that was used in one study (the protein speeds carb conversion to glycogen). Then someone patented 4:1 and marketed the heck out of it. But just because it's patented doesn't mean it's any good- I should know, I have a number of patents for things I thought were obvious. A patent just means that someone spent some money on a patent laywer and they managed to convince an examiner (who is overworked and probably doesn't know the field very well) that the idea is patentable.
You sure don't need 2000 calories for your recovery meal! A small amount of carbs with some protein is enough to get glycogen storage started after your ride. You aren't burning 2000 calories in two hours either- if you are, you're world class and would have someone knowledgable preparing your food for you.
On-line (and HRM or GPS based) calorie counters are usually quite innacurate, almost always reading high. Obviously if you have been losing weight you're doing something right, but if you follow the calorie counter strictly and eat by it, you'll be off. If you want to be accurate, you need a power meter.
As you get fitter, you will be burning a higher precentage of fat at a given level of effort. That's good, it saves the muscle and liver glycogen for harder efforts.
I find calorie counting to be tedious. I just eat small frequent meals, try to eat healthy but don't worry about the occaisional beer or small dish of ice cream, and ride a lot. If I want to lose weight, I eat less, mostly cutting down on food in the evening so I am still well fueled for riding. It seems to work for me.
You sure don't need 2000 calories for your recovery meal! A small amount of carbs with some protein is enough to get glycogen storage started after your ride. You aren't burning 2000 calories in two hours either- if you are, you're world class and would have someone knowledgable preparing your food for you.
On-line (and HRM or GPS based) calorie counters are usually quite innacurate, almost always reading high. Obviously if you have been losing weight you're doing something right, but if you follow the calorie counter strictly and eat by it, you'll be off. If you want to be accurate, you need a power meter.
As you get fitter, you will be burning a higher precentage of fat at a given level of effort. That's good, it saves the muscle and liver glycogen for harder efforts.
I find calorie counting to be tedious. I just eat small frequent meals, try to eat healthy but don't worry about the occaisional beer or small dish of ice cream, and ride a lot. If I want to lose weight, I eat less, mostly cutting down on food in the evening so I am still well fueled for riding. It seems to work for me.
08-26-09, 08:43 PM
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Your recovery food doesn't have to be liquid or exactly 4:1 carbs-protein. That was the number that was used in one study (the protein speeds carb conversion to glycogen). Then someone patented 4:1 and marketed the heck out of it. But just because it's patented doesn't mean it's any good- I should know, I have a number of patents for things I thought were obvious. A patent just means that someone spent some money on a patent laywer and they managed to convince an examiner (who is overworked and probably doesn't know the field very well) that the idea is patentable.
You sure don't need 2000 calories for your recovery meal! A small amount of carbs with some protein is enough to get glycogen storage started after your ride. You aren't burning 2000 calories in two hours either- if you are, you're world class and would have someone knowledgable preparing your food for you.
On-line (and HRM or GPS based) calorie counters are usually quite innacurate, almost always reading high. Obviously if you have been losing weight you're doing something right, but if you follow the calorie counter strictly and eat by it, you'll be off. If you want to be accurate, you need a power meter.
As you get fitter, you will be burning a higher precentage of fat at a given level of effort. That's good, it saves the muscle and liver glycogen for harder efforts.
I find calorie counting to be tedious. I just eat small frequent meals, try to eat healthy but don't worry about the occaisional beer or small dish of ice cream, and ride a lot. If I want to lose weight, I eat less, mostly cutting down on food in the evening so I am still well fueled for riding. It seems to work for me.
You sure don't need 2000 calories for your recovery meal! A small amount of carbs with some protein is enough to get glycogen storage started after your ride. You aren't burning 2000 calories in two hours either- if you are, you're world class and would have someone knowledgable preparing your food for you.
On-line (and HRM or GPS based) calorie counters are usually quite innacurate, almost always reading high. Obviously if you have been losing weight you're doing something right, but if you follow the calorie counter strictly and eat by it, you'll be off. If you want to be accurate, you need a power meter.
As you get fitter, you will be burning a higher precentage of fat at a given level of effort. That's good, it saves the muscle and liver glycogen for harder efforts.
I find calorie counting to be tedious. I just eat small frequent meals, try to eat healthy but don't worry about the occaisional beer or small dish of ice cream, and ride a lot. If I want to lose weight, I eat less, mostly cutting down on food in the evening so I am still well fueled for riding. It seems to work for me.
08-27-09, 06:49 AM
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I spent a long time reading and learning the same things you set out, and then realized that most of it was really irrelelvant unless you are traiing for racing and your are in a position where you need to fine tune your training. To lose weight, all the books, studies, and hype boils down to these rules:
1. Eat less junk.
2. Eat more good stuff.
3. Eat less.
Add exercise, and the weight will fall off. You will not lose weight if you just exercise and do not change your diet, because exercise makes you hungry. All the books and studies and weith-loss industry billions are focused on those rules: What, exactly, is "junk" per rule #1? Most of that is eay, high fat, high calorie food. Low nutrient food. Most highly processed food. The rest (high carb/low carb; good fat/bad fat, etc) is argument at the margins. What is the "good stuff" in rule #2? Again, most of it is obvious; more fruits and vegetables. And then rule #3, whihc is the key, is to simply eat less overall.
Do not overthink the process. Identify the high calorie junk and cut it out. Eat more fruits and vegetables, and cut out the second helping and dessert and snack.
The trouble with trying to idenitfy carb/protein ratios and calorie counts is that it usually turns out to be way more work than it's worth, unless you are a high performance athlete who needs peak performance.
1. Eat less junk.
2. Eat more good stuff.
3. Eat less.
Add exercise, and the weight will fall off. You will not lose weight if you just exercise and do not change your diet, because exercise makes you hungry. All the books and studies and weith-loss industry billions are focused on those rules: What, exactly, is "junk" per rule #1? Most of that is eay, high fat, high calorie food. Low nutrient food. Most highly processed food. The rest (high carb/low carb; good fat/bad fat, etc) is argument at the margins. What is the "good stuff" in rule #2? Again, most of it is obvious; more fruits and vegetables. And then rule #3, whihc is the key, is to simply eat less overall.
Do not overthink the process. Identify the high calorie junk and cut it out. Eat more fruits and vegetables, and cut out the second helping and dessert and snack.
The trouble with trying to idenitfy carb/protein ratios and calorie counts is that it usually turns out to be way more work than it's worth, unless you are a high performance athlete who needs peak performance.
08-27-09, 06:51 AM
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Last study I read regarding recovery indicated 75 calories within 15-20 minutes of exercise speeded recovery. So, I drink a glass of gatorade (from powder), then clean up and shower, then fix a normal (for me) meal.
08-28-09, 07:09 PM
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Michael Pollan said it well in "In Defense of Food": "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants".
Unless you are training for racing or long distance riding, I would not worry too much about making sure everything balances out just right, just keep riding, and keep eating healthy in general.
Once you start to get more serious about riding the diet becomes much, much more important, but you cannot take it too seriously or you can burn out, you have to treat yourself sometimes.
There are times when the best recovery meal might be a burger, fries and a coke, other times it may be chicken and brocolli, and other times it might just be a recovery drink. Much depends on what kind of ride it was...really long distance your body is sapped and both your body and mind need a treat.
Unless you are training for racing or long distance riding, I would not worry too much about making sure everything balances out just right, just keep riding, and keep eating healthy in general.
Once you start to get more serious about riding the diet becomes much, much more important, but you cannot take it too seriously or you can burn out, you have to treat yourself sometimes.
There are times when the best recovery meal might be a burger, fries and a coke, other times it may be chicken and brocolli, and other times it might just be a recovery drink. Much depends on what kind of ride it was...really long distance your body is sapped and both your body and mind need a treat.
