Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Energy drink or powder - which do you use?

Notices
Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Energy drink or powder - which do you use?

Old 10-08-09, 06:21 AM
  #1  
Gav888
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Energy drink or powder - which do you use?

Hi,

Do you use pre mixed energy drinks such as Gatorade and Powerade, or energy powder mix, such as High5 or SIS?

And why do you use it?

Personally, I use Powerade as I like the flavour and its pre mixed so I dont have all that hassle of mixing the right amount of powder with water etc, although being able to carry powder on long runs would be handy than having to purchase whatever the local shop has!!
Gav888 is offline  
Old 10-08-09, 12:41 PM
  #2  
ukmtk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ashbourne, Derbyshire
Posts: 138

Bikes: Raleigh MTRAX, Ribble Road

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I use sugar free diluted blackcurrant squash with added glucose (Sainsburys own in case it means something to you). Works for me up to 3 hours. Dead cheap.
ukmtk is offline  
Old 10-08-09, 02:23 PM
  #3  
ericm979
Senior Member
 
ericm979's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains
Posts: 6,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I use powders (HEED and sometimes Sustained Energy). They're not available pre-mixed. Even if they were I would not buy pre-mixed drink. You have to pay for transporting all that water, so it's more expensive. You don't have the option of adjusting the mixture strength. And they take up more room in the pantry.

It's not like pouring powder into water is difficult.
ericm979 is offline  
Old 10-08-09, 02:40 PM
  #4  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,872
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1996 Post(s)
Liked 767 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by Gav888 View Post
Hi,

Do you use pre mixed energy drinks such as Gatorade and Powerade, or energy powder mix, such as High5 or SIS?

And why do you use it?

Personally, I use Powerade as I like the flavour and its pre mixed so I dont have all that hassle of mixing the right amount of powder with water etc, although being able to carry powder on long runs would be handy than having to purchase whatever the local shop has!!
Those are not "energy" drinks;
They are just sugar water.

Real energy drinks contain complex carbs to burn on long endurance events.
Look at the ingredients:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatorade

Almost all the carbs are sugar.

Now look at something like Hammer HEED:

https://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HN...s&offer=#info3

Note that only 2g out of the 25g is sugar.
The difference is the complex carbs.
Maltodextrin is the most common complex carb used.
Powerbar Endurance is another product similar to HEED.
Shimagnolo is offline  
Old 10-08-09, 05:59 PM
  #5  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,988
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1051 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 104 Posts
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Those are not "energy" drinks;
They are just sugar water.
Of course they're energy drinks. If your stomach doesn't have a problem processing the sugar you'll get all the energy you need from sugar water. It's not like there is a massive difference between your body breaking down maltodextrin and simpler sugars. Maltodextrin has a very high glycemic index and is broken down quickly.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 10-08-09, 08:16 PM
  #6  
WSKB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 69

Bikes: '08 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ukmtk View Post
I use sugar free diluted blackcurrant squash with added glucose (Sainsburys own in case it means something to you). Works for me up to 3 hours. Dead cheap.
Out of interest, why use sugar free but put back the glucose? Is glucose that much better than sucrose, I don't get it? Does it really make that much difference?
WSKB is offline  
Old 10-08-09, 09:14 PM
  #7  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 16,379

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2391 Post(s)
Liked 463 Times in 342 Posts
Maltodextrin is the base of most sports drinks. It's not a "complex carb," but rather a polysaccaride, a short chained sugar. Its glycemic index is higher than that of sugar, the opposite of a complex carb. But that's why it's so great - it gets into the blood stream and digests faster than anything, and that's what you want on the bike or for recovery. Immediate effect.

I use powders: Cytomax or HEED for short rides, and a homebrew of maltodextrin and protein for long rides where I'll take the powder with me. I find it worth it to bring about 300k worth of powder with me. This can be extended with drop bags for really long fast rides. Touring, it's mostly not worth it, just slow down, eat food, drink water, but take electrolytes. A great advantage of powders is that you can vary the strength. 100-150 calories/bottle for drinking it straight, to 750+ calories/bottle when supplementing with plain water.

It really doesn't matter all that much for most folks, what kind of carb stuff is in the water. People have had success with glucose, sucrose, fructose and combinations of all those. Hammer Nutrition says that maltodextrin gets into your blood faster and is less likely to give you sour stomach. I think that may be true, but TdF teams have all sorts of secret formulas.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 10-08-09, 10:10 PM
  #8  
UmneyDurak
RacingBear
 
UmneyDurak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 8,994
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 18 Posts
Maltodextrin is also not as sweet as sugar, thus more tolerable in larger quantities for most people.

UD
UmneyDurak is offline  
Old 10-08-09, 11:04 PM
  #9  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,872
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1996 Post(s)
Liked 767 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
Maltodextrin is also not as sweet as sugar, thus more tolerable in larger quantities for most people.

UD
Pure maltodextrin dissolved in water is absolutely tasteless.
I have been buying it in bulk for a couple years to make my 2:1 mix of maltodextrin and fructose with about 1/2 tsp salt per liter.
The fructose is sweet, and I generally add instant tea for flavoring, but I have tried the maltodextrin alone and couldn't even tell it wasn't plain water.
Shimagnolo is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 10:36 AM
  #10  
canam73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Haunchyville
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I use home brews usually based off of maltodextrin bought in bulk. I dissolve it in water with some sodium and some potassium ("sodium free" salt from super market) and then mix it with what ever fruit juice I can find in the fridge or just add some sugar and lemon juice for flavor. While it is cheap, I mainly like it because I can tailor its strength for my specific ride. I also rig up bars out of oatmeal, almond butter and dried fruit to take on rides for food.
canam73 is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 11:50 AM
  #11  
ukmtk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ashbourne, Derbyshire
Posts: 138

Bikes: Raleigh MTRAX, Ribble Road

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The reason for the sugar free is that is what I drink most of the time.
I add glucose as it is absorbed into the blood stream much faster than sucrose (i.e. it needs less processing in the body). Which is one reason that diabetics will carry glucose tablets.
ukmtk is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 04:57 PM
  #12  
Gav888
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Found the below on the Hammer site, is this correct, ie you can consume more complex carbs per hour than simple carbs such as Gatorade?

For endurance athletes (longer than 2 hours) the primary problem with fuels containing simple sugars is that they must be mixed in weak 6-8% solutions in order to match body fluid osmolality and thus be digested with any efficiency. Unfortunately, solutions mixed and consumed at this concentration only provide about 100 calories per hour, inadequate for maintaining energy production on an hourly basis. Using a 6-8% solution to obtain adequate calories means your fluid intake becomes so high that it causes discomfort and bloating, and you may possibly over-hydrate to the point of fluid intoxication.

You can't make a double or triple strength mixture from a simple sugar-based carbohydrate fuel in the hopes of obtaining adequate calories because the concentration of that mixture, now far beyond the 6-8% mark, will remain in your stomach until sufficiently diluted, which may cause substantial stomach distress. You can drink more fluids in the hopes of self diluting the overly concentrated mixture, but remember that you'll increase the risk of over-hydration. However, if you don't dilute with more water and electrolytes, your body will recruit these from other areas that critically need them and divert them to the digestive system to deal with the concentrated simple sugar mix. This can result in a variety of stomach-related distresses, not to mention increased cramping potential.

Bottom line is that simple sugar-based drinks or gels have to be mixed and consumed at very dilute and calorically weak concentrations in order to be digested with any efficiency. A simple sugar-based product used at a properly mixed concentration cannot provide adequate calories to sustain energy production.

Any way you look at it, fuels containing simple sugars are inefficient and therefore not recommended during prolonged exercise. Complex carbohydrates (polysaccharides) are the best choice for endurance athletes, as they allow your digestive system to rapidly and efficiently process a greater volume of calories, providing steady energy. Unlike simple sugars, which match body fluid osmolality at 6-8% solutions, complex carbohydrates match body fluid osmolality at substantially more concentrated 15-20% solutions. Even at this seemingly high concentration, complex carbohydrates (such as maltodextrins and glucose polymers) will empty the
stomach at the same efficient rate as normal body fluids and provide up to three times more energy than simple sugar mixtures, which means you can fulfill your caloric requirements without running the risk of over-hydration or other stomach related maladies.

Recommendation: To get the proper amount of easily digested calories, rely on fuels that use complex carbohydrates (maltodextrins or glucose polymers) only, with no added simple sugar as their carbohydrate source.
Gav888 is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 05:43 PM
  #13  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,872
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1996 Post(s)
Liked 767 Times in 460 Posts
Something else to consider is the fructose some mixtures use (e.g. Powerbar Endurance).
It is handled very differently from maltodextrin.
Explanation here:

https://outside.away.com/outside/body...hydration.html
Shimagnolo is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 05:53 PM
  #14  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,872
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1996 Post(s)
Liked 767 Times in 460 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Maltodextrin is the base of most sports drinks. It's not a "complex carb," but rather a polysaccaride, a short chained sugar.
"Dietitians and other certified food scientists commonly classify carbohydrates as simple (monosaccharides and disaccharides) or complex (oligosaccharides and polysaccharides)."

https://www.blogcatalog.com/blogs/carbohydrate.html
Shimagnolo is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 09:20 PM
  #15  
Richard Cranium
Senior Member
 
Richard Cranium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the Shawnee Forest
Posts: 2,924

Bikes: LeMond - Gunnar

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
This is another case that begs the question - "What are you trying to do with your sports product?"

For once - I agree with Eric's comments - that in any case, a powdered supplement lends itself to cheaper distribution and easier dosing strength. I buy over 100 pounds of supplements per year, if I paid shipping on a liquid alternative - I'd be screwed. My last order was 45lbs - shipping was $15......

Now the other "deal" is that at least some of you have wised up enough to understand the nature of sugars and carbohydrates. Typically, many mineral drinks use simple sugars because they don't need steady-state energy necessitated by endurance sports. This is how Gatorade started.

But even now, there are variations of Gatorade, - and truly innovative products like Cytomax and Infinit mix products that can be utilized for a variety of situations.

Bottom line -all products have their place, but typically - powdered products allow for the additional convenience of transport. Thats pretty important on a hilly double century....
Richard Cranium is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 09:54 PM
  #16  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 16,379

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2391 Post(s)
Liked 463 Times in 342 Posts
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
"Dietitians and other certified food scientists commonly classify carbohydrates as simple (monosaccharides and disaccharides) or complex (oligosaccharides and polysaccharides)."

https://www.blogcatalog.com/blogs/carbohydrate.html
If you read your link, you'd see that maltodextrin is not mentioned in this catalog of types of carbohydrate. The article also states, "Definitions of how large a carbohydrate must be to fall into each category vary according to personal opinion." And if you google "complex carbohydrates," you'll find articles like the following from an MPH & RD:
https://www.thedietchannel.com/Good-C...-Your-Diet.htm

Most folks think that "complex carbs" = whole grain bread, fruit, and other low glycemic index foods. Now maybe language has become corrupted, but that's what we read. So I find the labeling of maltodextrin and products containing it as "complex carbs" to be misleading, whether or not it may be correct in scientific literature (and I'm not sure that it is correct). As I mention above, the effect of this particular complex carb is the opposite of what the public has been led to expect from this class of food substances.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 10:03 PM
  #17  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 16,379

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2391 Post(s)
Liked 463 Times in 342 Posts
Originally Posted by Gav888 View Post
Found the below on the Hammer site, is this correct, ie you can consume more complex carbs per hour than simple carbs such as Gatorade? <snip>
My experience is that this is correct.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 10-09-09, 10:15 PM
  #18  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 16,379

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2391 Post(s)
Liked 463 Times in 342 Posts
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Something else to consider is the fructose some mixtures use (e.g. Powerbar Endurance).
It is handled very differently from maltodextrin.
Explanation here:

https://outside.away.com/outside/body...hydration.html
That is interesting. I've known about it, haven't tried it, but I see you use it. Perhaps you could comment on Hammer's response and your experience.
My experience is that, using a 7:1 malto/protein ratio, I can average the 1g/minute ingestion rate for many hours on multiple mountain pass rides, as long as it's not too hot. Or about 750 cal. every 3 hours. Can you do better than that on similar rides by adding fructose?

Hammer's blurb:

"Findings from research conducted by the Dutch sport scientist Asker Jeukendrup has caused quite a stir. In fact, a few companies now produce sports drinks that contain the carbohydrate formulations used in the studies. In general, Jeukendrup found that a blend of carbohydrates increased oxidation rates, indicating higher energy production. In one study, cyclists who ingested a 2:1 mixture of maltodextrin to fructose oxidized carbohydrate up to 1.5 grams/minute. Another study used a mixture of glucose, fructose, and sucrose and had rates that peaked at 1.7 g/min. Both those results are pretty eye opening, considering that complex carbohydrates typically oxidize at a rate of about 1.0 g/min.

"However, there's more to the results than what first meets the eye. Most of Jeukendrup's subjects cycled at low intensity, only 50-55% maximum power output, which I think we'd all agree is very much a recovery pace, if that.

"To be blunt, at a leisurely 50% VO2 Max pace, athletes can digest cheeseburgers and pizza with no gastric issues. However, if the heart rate and core temperature are raised to only 70% VO2 Max, the body must divert core accumulated heat from central to peripheral. This reduces the blood volume available to absorb ingested carbohydrates or whatever the athlete has consumed. After two decades of experience, we have found that in the overwhelming majority of the athletes we've worked with - athletes engaged in typical 75-85% efforts and/or in multi-hour endurance events - the combination of simple sugars and long chain carbohydrates, and in amounts higher than approximately 1.0 - 1.1 grams per minute (roughly 4.0 - 4.6 calories per minute), have not yielded positive results. They did, however, increase performance-inhibiting, stomach-related maladies.

"Lowell Greib, MSc ND, explains that gastric emptying is a key limiting step in carbohydrate metabolism: If your stomach can't empty the product (no matter what it is) you are going to get nothing from it except a huge gut ache and possibly lots of vomiting! Unless there is new research that I am unaware of, gastric emptying is directly proportional to the osmolality of the solution in the stomach. Long chain carbohydrate (maltodextrin) contributes less to increasing the osmolality than do disaccharides (sucrose, lactose, maltose, etc.).

"Augmenting Greib's statements, Dr. Bill Misner writes, Absorption rate and how fast the liver can 'kick it out' are limiting factors. No matter what you eat, how much or how little, the body provides glucose to the bloodstream at a rate of about 1 gram/minute. Putting more calories in than can generate energy taxes gastric venues, electrolyte stores, and fluid levels.

"Bottom line is not whether or not Jeukendrup's published studies are disputable, but rather if these studies apply to faster paced, longer duration bouts of exercise. We do not believe this to be the case, which is why we do not recommend the use of multiple carbohydrate sources during exercise. Stick with complex carbohydrate fuels, and we guarantee you'll see better results."

And I take it back about the complex carbs issue. I don't like that labeling, but Hammer says it's reasonable.

Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 10-09-09 at 10:21 PM.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 10-10-09, 11:03 AM
  #19  
ericgu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I wrote this a while back:

https://riderx.info/blogs/riderx/arch...ion-drink.aspx

The weird thing about this area is the vast differences between individuals. Some people have great luck with specific products, others have bad problems with the same product.

For me, I've used accelerade for a long time. It's worked good for rides in the century range but not as well with those that are longer, when it just gets too sweet for me. This year I've been cutting it 3:1 with maltodextrin, and I like the result better. That does push the protein ratio down from accelerade's 4:1 to something like 5:1, but I think that's still in the right range and since I supplement with real food I'm not too specific about that.
__________________
Eric

2005 Trek 5.2 Madone, Red with Yellow Flames (Beauty)
199x Lemond Tourmalet, Yellow with fenders (Beast)

Read my cycling blog at https://riderx.info/blogs/riderx
Like climbing? Goto https://www.bicycleclimbs.com
ericgu is offline  
Old 10-11-09, 10:43 AM
  #20  
Richard Cranium
Senior Member
 
Richard Cranium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the Shawnee Forest
Posts: 2,924

Bikes: LeMond - Gunnar

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
These guys already have done their homework - what's open to speculation is how to determine an athlete's hydration needs at any given point in time and space. It's never been about sugar - it's always been about osmosis and hydration levels. That's why testing theoretical formulations remains an art. Needless to say, your mileage, like your core temperature may vary.......

https://www.infinitnutrition.us/getstarted/
Richard Cranium is offline  
Old 10-11-09, 11:30 AM
  #21  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 16,379

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2391 Post(s)
Liked 463 Times in 342 Posts
^ You got that right! You can think, yeah, I've been peeing every 3 hours, but that doesn't tell you what to do at the present moment, when you don't feel so good. Water? Electrolytes? Ease the pace? All of the above? How much of each? Hungry is pretty easy by contrast. So you blow chow, DNF, and always wonder. Or you have the killer tandem stoker beast and she rides it to the finish solo.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.