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weight training?

Old 08-20-04, 07:10 AM
  #76  
Murrays
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Originally Posted by MERTON
what if a person lifted in their upper body 2 times a week, lower once a week and rode their bike 300 miles a week. wouldn't they get quite a few benefits from both sides? i'm doing this now but with the milage only around 60 miles per week. i'm hoping someday to end up with at least 300 mpw at about 195 lbs to 225 lbs (i'll go with what feels best) at some point (like.. in a few years when i have the money for a road bike). wouldn't i still have good endurance but also be a bit faster than the guy that just rode 300 mpw with no weight training?
Let's take your current situation, lifting 3 days a week and riding 60 miles a week. I wouldn't have a hard time believing that replacing the 3 lifting days with 1 day of intervals, 1 day of hill repeats and 1 long day (> 60 miles) would make you a better rider. No one here has been able to present any evidence that lifting makes you faster. The one article I found states that weight training "does not improve cycle ENDURANCE performance". https://www.cptips.com/weights.htm

FWIW, your plan of 3 days of lifting leaves only 4 days to get your 300 mpw with no rest days. I think such a plan would be very difficult to maintain for any length of time.

-murray
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Old 08-20-04, 11:43 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by MERTON
what if a person lifted in their upper body 2 times a week, lower once a week and rode their bike 300 miles a week. wouldn't they get quite a few benefits from both sides? i'm doing this now but with the milage only around 60 miles per week. i'm hoping someday to end up with at least 300 mpw at about 195 lbs to 225 lbs (i'll go with what feels best) at some point (like.. in a few years when i have the money for a road bike). wouldn't i still have good endurance but also be a bit faster than the guy that just rode 300 mpw with no weight training?

Merton your pretty spot on. Guys like Damiano Cunego (2004 Giro Italia Winner), Davide Rebellin (2004 World Cup Winner), Lance Armstrong (2004 Tour De France Winner) ALL LIFT. I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT.


Originally Posted by Murrays
No one here has been able to present any evidence that lifting makes you faster.

Sorry, just have fella.


Guess what. A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER. That is the bottom line. Lifting weights will give you make you a better cyclist ALL ROUND, an all rounder. Guys like Virenque who don't lift, yeah great in the mountains but nothing else, will never be an accomplished all rounder.



Originally Posted by Murrays
Let's take your current situation, lifting 3 days a week and riding 60 miles a week. I wouldn't have a hard time believing that replacing the 3 lifting days with 1 day of intervals, 1 day of hill repeats and 1 long day (> 60 miles) would make you a better rider. No one here has been able to present any evidence that lifting makes you faster. The one article I found states that weight training "does not improve cycle ENDURANCE performance". https://www.cptips.com/weights.htm

FWIW, your plan of 3 days of lifting leaves only 4 days to get your 300 mpw with no rest days. I think such a plan would be very difficult to maintain for any length of time.

-murray

No this won't make him a better rider. If I was to follow this advice my legs would get weaker. ALOT WEAKER. In fact, you wouldn't believe how much weaker this type of training would make me. Your another who is behind the times. The old days are well gone. Cycling alone doesn't make your legs strong, the resitance is FAR, FAR TOO LIGHT.

Weights will make you a faster sprinter, faster long distance runner, faster soccer player etc etc etc...


Get with the times... A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER.
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Old 08-20-04, 12:35 PM
  #78  
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You're contradicting yourself right and left here:

Originally Posted by Vitamin X
Cycling alone doesn't make your legs strong, the resitance is FAR, FAR TOO LIGHT.
Get with the times... A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER.
If cycling resistance is so light, why you do you need so much strength?!?

Originally Posted by Vitamin X
No Tyler Hamilton doesn't have excessive leg strength, BELIEVE ME. We saw what happened to him in the tour, he couldn't keep up with the big boys. Mayo<<< Got blown away, doesn't lift.
Originally Posted by Vitamin X
A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER.
So, if Tyler Hamilton & Iban Mayo don't lift and stronger riders will always win, how do you explain this:

Code:
August 18: Men's Time Trial, 48km
Results

1 Tyler Hamilton (USA)                    57.31.74 (50.062 km/h)
2 Viatcheslav Ekimov (Russia)              0.18.84
3 Bobby Julich (USA)                       0.26.45
4 Michael Rogers (Australia)               0.29.93
5 Michael Rich (Germany)                   0.37.72
6 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kazakhstan)        1.26.40
7 Jan Ullrich (Germany)                    1.30.30
8 Santiago Botero Echeverri (Colombia)     1.33.02
9 Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spain)        1.55.51
10 Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland)         2.10.64
or this

Code:
The 56th Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré - 2.HC
Final general classification
 
1 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi                            29.27.15
2 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems                      0.36
3 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems                       1.14
4 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal presented by Berry Floor         2.00
5 Juan Miguel Mercado (Spa) Quick.Step-Davitamon                   2.32
6 José Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems                      2.36
7 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank                                 2.39
8 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank                                   3.33
9 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems                       3.58
10 Inigo Landaluze (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi                         4.02
-murray
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Old 08-20-04, 12:58 PM
  #79  
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A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER over any 3 week ENDURANCE event. You just keep putting endless miles into your legs, cos you ain't getting any stronger... Keep doing hill repeats till your blue in the face and riding bike resistance only, then when you or the athletes you advise come up against the guys that do lift and train harder, tell them to forget about competing against the likes of your Damiano Cunego's, Amstrongs etc cos ones is for certain, they won't be able to compete...

Keep Rockin' In The Free World...
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Old 08-20-04, 01:58 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Vitamin X
A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER over any 3 week ENDURANCE event.
Code:
85th Giro d'Italia (GT)
Italy, May 11-June 2, 2002 
Final general classification
 
1 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Index Alexia                    89.22.42
2 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Team CSC Tiscali                      1.41
3 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Alessio                            2.12
4 Juan Manuel Garate (Spa) Lampre-Daikin                     3.14
5 Pavel Tonkov (Rus) Lampre-Daikin                           5.34
6 Aitor Gonzalez Jimenez (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca            6.54
7 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner                         7.02
8 Fernando Escartin (Spa) Team Coast                         7.07
9 Rik Verbrugghe (Bel) Lotto-Adecco                          9.36
10 Dario Frigo (Ita) Tacconi Sport-Emmegi                   11.50
Two muscle bound guys at the top of that GC

Any other qualifications you want to put on your A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER claim??

-murray
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Old 08-20-04, 02:11 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Murrays
Code:
85th Giro d'Italia (GT)
Italy, May 11-June 2, 2002 
Final general classification
 
1 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Index Alexia                    89.22.42
2 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Team CSC Tiscali                      1.41
3 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Alessio                            2.12
4 Juan Manuel Garate (Spa) Lampre-Daikin                     3.14
5 Pavel Tonkov (Rus) Lampre-Daikin                           5.34
6 Aitor Gonzalez Jimenez (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca            6.54
7 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner                         7.02
8 Fernando Escartin (Spa) Team Coast                         7.07
9 Rik Verbrugghe (Bel) Lotto-Adecco                          9.36
10 Dario Frigo (Ita) Tacconi Sport-Emmegi                   11.50
Two muscle bound guys at the top of that GC

Any other qualifications you want to put on your A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER claim??

-murray
i think vitamin X has taken too much vitamin X and his or her brain has exploded from the overdose!!

interestingly enough, the pros (and others, and not all pros) have, in a strange sort of way proved that it's a cardiovascular and metabolic issue (increasing performance) and not weight training. why do i say this? well, we know, without any doubt that taking rH-Epo immediately (pretty much) improves performance by altering haematological parameters and increasing convective O2 delivery, which is the limiting factor in endurance exercise. if we take two *equal* athletes who are drug free and get one to dope with rH-Epo, then the assisted one will win.

given that, either Vitamin X, is in no particular order, 1) unable to grasp the underlying physiology of a quite basic discussion, 2) is just trolling us, or 3) doesn't understand the terms "strength", "power", "endurance", etc.

i've asked Vitamin X on a few occasions to support his or her claim, but s/he seems unable or unwilling to do so.


ric
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Old 08-20-04, 04:34 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Murrays
Code:
85th Giro d'Italia (GT)
Italy, May 11-June 2, 2002 
Final general classification
 
1 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Index Alexia                    89.22.42
2 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Team CSC Tiscali                      1.41
3 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Alessio                            2.12
4 Juan Manuel Garate (Spa) Lampre-Daikin                     3.14
5 Pavel Tonkov (Rus) Lampre-Daikin                           5.34
6 Aitor Gonzalez Jimenez (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca            6.54
7 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner                         7.02
8 Fernando Escartin (Spa) Team Coast                         7.07
9 Rik Verbrugghe (Bel) Lotto-Adecco                          9.36
10 Dario Frigo (Ita) Tacconi Sport-Emmegi                   11.50
Two muscle bound guys at the top of that GC

Any other qualifications you want to put on your A STRONGER RIDER WILL ALWAYS BEAT A WEAKER RIDER claim??

-murray

85th Giro d'Italia May 11-June 2, 2002???.... May 11-June 2, 2002????...

Old news, Old times... Times have moved on, I guess you guys should too... Nuff said.

Muscle bound guys???. No, Bodybuilders are muscle bound. Weights WON'T make you muscle bound. I have told you that, please take note of older posts. I actually lost weight and so have millions of others lifting weights.



Originally Posted by ric stern
interestingly enough, the pros (and others, and not all pros) have, in a strange sort of way proved that it's a cardiovascular and metabolic issue (increasing performance) and not weight training. why do i say this? well, we know, without any doubt that taking rH-Epo immediately (pretty much) improves performance by altering haematological parameters and increasing convective O2 delivery, which is the limiting factor in endurance exercise. if we take two *equal* athletes who are drug free and get one to dope with rH-Epo, then the assisted one will win.


No lets forget about EPO. Your Armstrongs, Damiano Cunego's etc etc etc don't supplement there training with EPO. What I do know is they supplement it through weight training, plyometrics, hill sprints (running) etc etc. I know EPO increases oxygen delivery and I know of LEGAL alternative supplements that do the same thing which work just as well.

Bloody hell I could name around 30 supplements that immediately (pretty much) improves performance by altering haematological parameters and increasing convective O2 delivery, jesus. I bought some today at my health food store, and work, lol.

Originally Posted by ric stern
i've asked Vitamin X on a few occasions to support his or her claim, but s/he seems unable or unwilling to do so.
This is the last time....

Damiano Cunego (2004 Giro Italia Winner),
Davide Rebellin (2004 World Cup Winner),
Lance Armstrong (2004 Tour De France Winner)

ALL LIFT...


At the end of the day, all these guys were stronger than there weaker counter parts... A cyclist with stronger legs who puts in the hard work in the gym WILL beat a guy that just trains solely cycling. That is COMMON SENSE.

God, I remember when I started cycling and didn't know anything about training or how to make myself stronger. All I kept doing was hill repeats, I was stagnating, no in fact, I was going backwards. A year later I was hitting my posterior chain muscles with weights and I was flying up the hills twice as fast. Because my legs were alot stronger my heart & lungs weren't being called upon as much. It was just very, very easy. I don't need no study on the internet to tell me, or guys who do lifts weights that win major events (Tour De France, Giro etc) that weights will make me personally a faster rider, I have been my own lab rat for 4 years, I know for a fact, personally it works.

This is an argument you will never win. You can only win it by me getting bored and simply falling asleep. Cycling will only make the strength in your lungs, Heart and legs go so far UNTIL you have to use different means of training to improve upon them.
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Old 08-20-04, 05:02 PM
  #83  
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I moved from powerlifting to cycling in 1994 due to joint problems and sheer weight lifting burnout.

I competyed for several years on my mountain bike and climbs were where I left the others behind. My leg strength helped me to power over hills very effectively. I could not spin well until i lost some of my leg mass.

My PL stats were:

5'9" and 170 lbs.

Best qualifying squat 535 lbs, (completely drug free and no squat suit). This is not the kind of weight the real serious PL'ers do at that body weight but it was what I managed. I did a close 575 in training once but not to full depth.

The problem was not turniong big gears but turning higher cadence. Back then my cadence was in the 65-80 range where now I typically ride anywhere from 85-95.
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Old 08-20-04, 05:13 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Vitamin X




I know EPO increases oxygen delivery and I know of LEGAL alternative supplements that do the same thing which work just as well.

Bloody hell I could name around 30 supplements that immediately (pretty much) improves performance by altering haematological parameters and increasing convective O2 delivery, jesus. I bought some today at my health food store, and work, lol.


Please tell me (us) more.....
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Old 08-20-04, 08:42 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Ric Stern
i think vitamin X has taken too much vitamin X and his or her brain has exploded from the overdose!!
Ahhh, I'm just having fun with him

Of course, I should have figured out that NO ONE lifted in 2002, that's ancient history according to V X. I guess we need to get with the times Ric

-murray
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Old 08-20-04, 09:31 PM
  #86  
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I am one that thinks that lifting helps a little, but I wouldn't go with the stronger rider always beats a weaker one mantra. Tyler, Mayo, and the like had problems because of the first week of the tour. Tyler crashed, it basically sidelined him because of his back. Guys like Mayo are 130 lbs in race season. The rainy, windy, crappy conditions the first week took a higher toll on the smaller competitors because they couldn't take as much shock as a guy at 165 like Armstrong. The conditions were at least part to blame for guys like Mayo dropping like flies.
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Old 08-21-04, 12:41 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by countryrider
I am one that thinks that lifting helps a little, but I wouldn't go with the stronger rider always beats a weaker one mantra. Tyler, Mayo, and the like had problems because of the first week of the tour. Tyler crashed, it basically sidelined him because of his back. Guys like Mayo are 130 lbs in race season. The rainy, windy, crappy conditions the first week took a higher toll on the smaller competitors because they couldn't take as much shock as a guy at 165 like Armstrong. The conditions were at least part to blame for guys like Mayo dropping like flies.

i'm pretty sure Tour medical data had Mayo as something like a kg lighter than Armstrong...
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Old 08-21-04, 02:31 AM
  #88  
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I think this thread has been finally wrapped up. Whether someone takes part in weight training or not doesn't matter. Its all about enjoyment, the taking part & getting yourself in shape & feeling good about yourself. Whether there pro, semi, or 100lbs overweight, my respect goes out to all who cycle that want to improve themselves.


Originally Posted by country rider
I am one that thinks that lifting helps a little, but I wouldn't go with the stronger rider always beats a weaker one mantra. Tyler, Mayo, and the like had problems because of the first week of the tour. Tyler crashed, it basically sidelined him because of his back. Guys like Mayo are 130 lbs in race season. The rainy, windy, crappy conditions the first week took a higher toll on the smaller competitors because they couldn't take as much shock as a guy at 165 like Armstrong. The conditions were at least part to blame for guys like Mayo dropping like flies.
Is that correct???... I just looked on eurosports official website which stated Mayo was 71Kg (156lbs). These guys don't usually get these things wrong. This stat was recorded at the start of the Tour. Lance Armstrong was recorded as being 77Kg (170lbs) at the start of the Tour De France. I cannot see Mayo ever being 130lbs. Going from 156lbs<<< Which is very skinny anyway, to 130lbs especially for a guy who is 182cm seems is just to unbelievable.

Who's wrong???... You or Eurosport, just interested.
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Old 08-21-04, 07:03 AM
  #89  
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X, Tell us more about your over the counter, non-banned, ok to be taken without a blood test, or doctors supervision supplements that increase the oxygen carrying capability of your blood by up to 20%
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Old 08-24-04, 03:49 PM
  #90  
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This is a really good thread (time to add my 2 cents)

Well I have been lifting pretty hard for the last 4 years Yea thats me , I started road biking last year. Did my first century after 1 month of road biking (had a leisure mountain biking background)I always thought of myself as a sprinter not an endurance athelete (maybe I'm still a sprinter since I go for riding 20-25 miles at 22mph avg)anyways I was surprise how smoothly I transitioned into road cycling. I wont say that all my lifting helped out that much because cycling is so much about your cardio. My lifting background made me at first take on the really high gears because I had the leg strength, but I later learned that pro cyclist try to keep a high cadence.
I later adjusted and my cadence now is 83-87.

Overall it seems for me that its alot about training hard and smart(cycling). I agree that low weight high rep training helps build your muscle endurance and is a good form of exercise for cyclist(which is exactly the opposite of my strength training, high weight low rep). Heavy strength lifting dosen't really give you an advantage it seems but you can overcome it and be just also good as the next guy if you train right and are really dedicated.
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Old 08-25-04, 11:52 AM
  #91  
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Ok, time for this lurker to weigh in: I think both sides may be "right" in their own way. I hear Ric saying that strength, specifically strength gained from lifting weights, does not translate into greater cycling endurance. From everything I have read over the past five years (which is when I got into triathlon) I would agree with Ric on this - there are no scientific studies to support the conclusion that a stronger leg muscle can produce or be trained to produce more cycling endurance over a non-weight-trained muscle. But, could it be that leg strength can affect cycling performance in areas other than endurance? This is where I think others have been going with this discussion.

I don't think anyone is arguing that strength, per se, is more predictive of better performance in a cycling endurance event than actual cycling muscular endurance, especially as the rides/races get longer and longer. What I do hear some saying is that of two riders with the exact same physiologies and identical level of training the one with more leg strength and/or power *should* produce a better performance. Why? Because a race requires more than muscular endurance alone, it also requires strength and/or power. Now, I am not a physiologist but I wonder how strength and power are interrelated? Can a stronger muscle (Force=Mass*Acceleration) be trained to be more powerful (F=MA/time) than a weaker muscle? If a stronger muscle can be trained to produce a higher level of power output, and if power output affects performance in endurance events then this is a good thing. I am not saying that strength/power are more significant than muscular endurance but they would seem to be a factor in overall performance. It *seems* that even if the force or power required to climb a moderate hill is quite low that the more powerful muscle should have an easier time of it because it exhausts fewer muscle fibers. Example, if I am so weak that I must use almost all of my strength to push up a hill, even if I have a great VO2max and excellent muscular endurance, the person with the same V02max and endurance but greater force production should beat me up the hill.

So, the question is : can greater leg strength and/or power production increase the performance of an endurance cyclist over one with less leg strength/power, all things being equal? Even if we accept Ric's view that such strength/power does not increase endurance (which I am apt to believe) can we go so far as to say that it does not result in an increase in performance? As always, another important question is "by how much" can performance be increased? If muscular endurance is the main limiter for performance then it would make most sense to spend the majority (perhaps all?) of training time devoted to this one aspect of fitness until it has been optimized. And just to throw a little more complexity into the discussion, Ric has suggested that increased muscular strength (and/or power?) is inversely proportional to the level of muscular endurance that can be trained. Question is, quantitatively how significant is this? Just HOW MUCH endurance is sacrificed? Is the decrease in endurance offset by the performance increase of the strength/power? There must be an optimal ratio of power:endurance to produce an optimal performance, which of course would vary depending on the race course topography and length.

Finally, on the subject of specificity of training, I noticed that Joe Friel (author of The Triathletes Training Bible and the Cyclists Training Bible) has moved away from weight room strength/power/endurance training and is now advocating such work to be performed on the bike itself = specificity. In theory, I like that approach because I do believe in the efficacy of specificity but I would have to be convinced that I could train my muscles to the same levels of strength/power on the bike vs in the weight room OR that lower levels of strength/power relative to levels gained in the weight room are more than offset by the specificity of bike training resulting in greater performance on the bike.

This is why I love training and racing so much. Because as scientific as we get about it all, two riders with different strengths and weaknesses and different training volumes/intensities/methodologies but with similar levels of fitness in other areas can beat each other or lose to each other on any given day

Last edited by Knighty; 08-25-04 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 08-25-04, 01:05 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Knighty
This is why I love training and racing so much. Because as scientific as we get about it all, two riders with different strengths and weaknesses and different training volumes/intensities/methodologies but with similar levels of fitness in other areas can beat each other or lose to each other on any given day
I agree, but it's a love/hate thing. After 15 years of serious riding, there are too many factors to determine what made me better or worse this year. I think I've decided that the only way to get stronger on the bike is to be on the bike more

-murray
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Old 08-25-04, 03:29 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Knighty
I don't think anyone is arguing that strength, per se, is more predictive of better performance in a cycling endurance event than actual cycling muscular endurance, especially as the rides/races get longer and longer. What I do hear some saying is that of two riders with the exact same physiologies and identical level of training the one with more leg strength and/or power *should* produce a better performance.
you appear to be using strength and power interchangeably, this is not the case.

additionally, if they have the same "physiologies" then their power would be the same, as power is a direct measure of fitness and physiology.

strength, is the maximal force or tension that a muscle or group of muscles can generate. maximal force (i.e., strength) can only be generated at zero or very low velocity, see Hill's Force - Velocity curve (force is inversely proportional to velocity).

power is the sum of all the forces that must be overcome to move you and the bike at a given velocity under given conditions.

of course, if in a group of people if one person can generate more power for an equal size/shape/mass then they will travel at a greater velocity under given conditions.

Why? Because a race requires more than muscular endurance alone, it also requires strength and/or power.
a race does not require more strength than most people can generate. in fact, due to the in general higher average velocity caused by group dynamics and the reduction in air drag, force requirements are likely to less than when training by yourself.

Now, I am not a physiologist but I wonder how strength and power are interrelated? Can a stronger muscle (Force=Mass*Acceleration) be trained to be more powerful (F=MA/time) than a weaker muscle? If a stronger muscle can be trained to produce a higher level of power output, and if power output affects performance in endurance events then this is a good thing.
in general (with few exceptions) most people can generate the same force and power as elite riders. in fact, elite cyclists are, on average, no stronger than age, gender, and mass matched, healthy, sedentary controls.


I am not saying that strength/power are more significant than muscular endurance but they would seem to be a factor in overall performance. It *seems* that even if the force or power required to climb a moderate hill is quite low that the more powerful muscle should have an easier time of it because it exhausts fewer muscle fibers. Example, if I am so weak that I must use almost all of my strength to push up a hill, even if I have a great VO2max and excellent muscular endurance, the person with the same V02max and endurance but greater force production should beat me up the hill.
if the force is quite low to get up a hill (which it is) why would being able to produce more force be a good thing when already can? this is a rhetorical question.

if you have a great VO2max, then by definition you would be producing a great power output. Each watt will require a specific volume of O2 to move the muscles, thus a great power output = a great VO2max.

As defined by Hill's Force - Velocity curve you can't possibly generate maximal forces (i.e., strength) at normal (and even abnormal - i.e., very low cadences). Additionally, we know that maximal forces can only be generated for very brief periods of time. Even at very high power outputs the forces have dropped off considerably, from that (the forces) which can be produced maximally.

the only real time force may be a limiting factor, would be trying to start from stationary on a very steep incline (or e.g., during a standing start 1-km or 500-m TT)


So, the question is : can greater leg strength and/or power production increase the performance of an endurance cyclist over one with less leg strength/power, all things being equal?
yes, increased power is the most important part of performance. you are however, interchanging power and strength, which you can't do (as was previously mentioned).

Finally, on the subject of specificity of training, I noticed that Joe Friel (author of The Triathletes Training Bible and the Cyclists Training Bible) has moved away from weight room strength/power/endurance training and is now advocating such work to be performed on the bike itself = specificity.
:-)


In theory, I like that approach because I do believe in the efficacy of specificity but I would have to be convinced that I could train my muscles to the same levels of strength/power on the bike vs in the weight room OR that lower levels of strength/power relative to levels gained in the weight room are more than offset by the specificity of bike training resulting in greater performance on the bike.
in general you *can't* increase strength on the bike and certainly nowhere the weight room level for the non "general" people.

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Old 08-25-04, 04:00 PM
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Just a quick clarification before I ponder a more thoughful and direct response, I did not intend to suggest that strength and power were the same thing. That is why I tried to use "and/or" when referencing them in the same sentence. What I don't know is if one affects the other - that is, if I increase power alone, will that affect strength at all and vice versa.

Am I clear, are you suggesting that you cannot increase "strength" on the bike? You used the term "in general"...
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Old 08-25-04, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Knighty
Just a quick clarification before I ponder a more thoughful and direct response, I did not intend to suggest that strength and power were the same thing. That is why I tried to use "and/or" when referencing them in the same sentence. What I don't know is if one affects the other - that is, if I increase power alone, will that affect strength at all and vice versa.

Am I clear, are you suggesting that you cannot increase "strength" on the bike? You used the term "in general"...
apologies, it read to me that you were using strength and power interchangeably.

if you increase strength (with an increase in muscle cross sectional area) you can increase power output, but only peak power output (i.e., that which can be sustained for e.g., ~ 5-secs).

on the other hand you can increase power without increasing strength.

you can increase strength on the bike -- but realistically it's limited to a small group population (e.g., frail old ladies). on the other hand it *may* be possible to increase strength if you did lots of 'all-out' standing start 20-m sprints, but again, that's only going to happen for a small population (e.g., 500-m and 1-km Track Time trial sprinters)

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Old 08-25-04, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ric Stern
apologies, it read to me that you were using strength and power interchangeably.

if you increase strength (with an increase in muscle cross sectional area) you can increase power output, but only peak power output (i.e., that which can be sustained for e.g., ~ 5-secs).

on the other hand you can increase power without increasing strength.

you can increase strength on the bike -- but realistically it's limited to a small group population (e.g., frail old ladies). on the other hand it *may* be possible to increase strength if you did lots of 'all-out' standing start 20-m sprints, but again, that's only going to happen for a small population (e.g., 500-m and 1-km Track Time trial sprinters)

ric
Would you say, then, that it would be easier to increase power on the bike?
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Old 08-25-04, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Knighty
Would you say, then, that it would be easier to increase power on the bike?
that's the whole point of training (for the most part)
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Old 08-25-04, 05:24 PM
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Work = Weight x Distance

To work faster, requires more power.

Hence, more power = more speed. It is the definition of power.

Endurance training requires more muscle. Endurance training eats muscle.

Basball players used to abhor weight training. Nolan Ryan was a power pitcher. He walked as many people as he struck out. He was a thrower, not a pitcher. Threw the ball hard and fast.

Weight training did not make him more accurate. It did allow him to maintain more of his power at an advanced age.

He pitched into his forty's by lifting weights. He could still throw with power.

Comparing Rider A , who is weight training, to Ride, to Rider B, who is not, only proves that you do not understand what we are comparing.

It would require Rider A vs Rider A, with and with out weight training.

Ric said lifting would only help little old ladies. It will also help little old men.

Will lifting weights make Tyler faster ? Good question. What weights, what program, what, what what ? Hard to prove statisticly.

Will it extend his career ? Yes. He would lose his speed at a much slower rate. People who say they are in the best shape of their life in middle age were never in shape in their youth.

Would he still need endurance training, of course.
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Old 08-25-04, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jukt
Work = Weight x Distance

To work faster, requires more power.

Hence, more power = more speed. It is the definition of power.
work (done) = force x distance

Power is the rate of doing work (along with several other definitions).

Higher power under given conditions = greater velocity.

not sure what your point is: we can (in general) already generate more force than is required for cycling.



Endurance training requires more muscle. Endurance training eats muscle.
and your evidence for this is?

Weight training did not make him more accurate. It did allow him to maintain more of his power at an advanced age.

He pitched into his forty's by lifting weights. He could still throw with power.
we're talking about cycling not baseball. nonetheless, strength is maintained into the 5th or 6th decade of life.


Comparing Rider A , who is weight training, to Ride, to Rider B, who is not, only proves that you do not understand what we are comparing.

It would require Rider A vs Rider A, with and with out weight training.
not sure who this is aimed at?


Ric said lifting would only help little old ladies. It will also help little old men.
i said 1) "e.g." and 2) cycling increases strength in that/those groups


Will lifting weights make Tyler faster ? Good question. What weights, what program, what, what what ? Hard to prove statisticly.
no it won't -- if you mean related to endurance cycling performance. if you mean if he takes up 200-m track sprinting then it will!

research on trained/elite cyclists shows that it doesn't.


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Old 08-26-04, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ric Stern
that's the whole point of training (for the most part)
I've been following Joe Friel's training advice for a few years with good success. In his book The Trathlete's Training Bible he advocates a periodized plan of weight training in the following order:

- maximum strength
- power-endurance
- muscular endurance
- strength maintenance

(I might have missed one, but you get the point).

It places an early emphasis on building strength and power, as if the two were interrelated (that is, you build on your gained strength to build power...I notice he doesn't have you build power first then strength). Then he places more emphasis on muscular endurance as you get into the middle of your training period because that would be the more significant factor in performance. As the training progresses and more and more endurance work is performed on the bike, he moves away from endurance work in the gym (perhaps because as the weather improves you can do more specific training "on bike") and shifts the emphasis back to strength maintenance in the gym, though he does say that athletes under 40 might be able to get away with no strength maintenance.

I understand your contention that of the three abilities - strength, power and endurance - strength does not aid in the development of greater endurance - and I am with you on that. But you also seem to be saying that it does not increase performance, either. Or that it can actually DECREASE the muscles' ability to train for endurance.

I just can't help but think that additional strength as a "supplement" to endurance training may lead to increased performance. Unfortunately, there are too many variables to control for us to ever really know the answer to that question. I wonder if there has ever been a study to see if a stronger leg muscle climbs a hill faster than a weaker one? This is probably a function of power rather than strength. How about climbs "longer" than a weker one? Hmmm, endurance would be the factor there. I got it! Does leg strength affect the degree of power that can be trained? If the answer is yes then we might be onto something. If the answer is no...then I may stop doing heavy squats for those 6 weeks a year
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