Vegetarian
 

Hey all,

I've fairly recently turned vegetarian (7 months in) and have decided to start training for some cross state bike tours. Does anyone have any good high protein and/or healthy/helpful biking snacks or meals? I try to keep up with my protein but is there anything else I should be keeping in mind for long hauls or muscle building?

Also: I'm a girl, fairy newer rider (I try to commute to work and do weekly road rides but like I said just started training for longer rides and eventual tours), and take a multi-vitamin and a B-complex vitamin every day.

Cheers!

Also see http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/protein/

You probably don't need to worry specifically about protein. As long as you are getting enough calories from a varied diet, you are probably getting enough protein. I am vegan, and when I did a 1500 mile tour in August, protein was the least of my concerns.

I've been on a high protein diet for the past few weeks, a few of the things I've been eating:
Kashi Go Lean cereal
Cottage Cheese
String Cheese
Eggs
Protein Powder/shakes with soy milk
rice+beans
tofu
tempeh
veggie burgers/dogs
peanut butter (or other nuts)

Yogurt, specially greek yogurt, has tons of protein. I would also add tvorog, farmers cheese, but it is hard to find.

If you eat enough calories you get enough protein, you only need 2-5% of your daily food intake to be protein

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/protein.html

Iron. It's more difficult to absorb iron from non-meat sources. And being female you're more likely to be low on iron even without being vegetarian.

I've recommended this book often, I like it a lot: "The Thrive Diet" by Brendan Brazier, it's by a vegan ironman athlete, and includes all kinds of recipes for before, during and after exercising.

Instead of B-Complex, I usually just take B-12 supplement. Highly recommend Jarrow Formulas' Methyl B-12.

While there has been some contention about the completeness of proteins, this isn't exactly a great source. Everyone seems to have an agenda. His statement that it is impossible to have a calorically sufficient, protein-deficient diet tells me he's never heard of kwashiorkor or marasmus. It is entirely possible. Big red flag.

It should be fairly obvious to anyone familiar with animals (particularly ruminants) that we do not digest certain plant materials (like cellulose) as well as they do. The author makes the very wrong assumption that we do, and can extract whatever is in a plant. The truth is that we can't because there is simply so much other material, some of them in fact anti-nutrients (e.g. oxalic acid and tannins), associated with the amino acids. There is a system called biological value that calculates the amount of the protein incorporated into the human body when we eat a food. It is typically quite low for plant foods, and quite high for animal foods. This is one area where animal foods are actually beneficial. Others have mentioned B-12 and heme-form iron. We are omnivores, and can benefit from eating a wide variety of foods.

I do agree that the meat and dairy lobbies have so much clout in this country that they have clouded our notions of nutrition. We certainly don't need as much protein as we usually get. Check out Marion Nestle's Food Politics for an in-depth look. The chapter on the food pyramid alone is eye-opening.

The problem for those training, particularly with heavy weights, is that the protein-density of most plant foods is very low, and its absorption is slow. Even if it were possible to get your generally-accepted recommendation (in this case around 2g/kg of protein per day) from eating nothing but spinach, you'd get full first, and you'd have a hard time getting timing absorption immediately before and after a workout. Whey (or soy, to slightly lesser degrees) protein is useful because it has a high biological value, is protein-dense, and is easily digested by most.

For long-term survival, vegetarianism can be great. It makes eating for athletic performance a little more difficult.

In any case, OP, I actually like Clif bars. Lots of soy protein and carbs to keep you going. The fuel to keep going will be your primary concern, though you should include some protein. Protein isn't the problem most make it out to be, though it is worth considering for endurance athletes.

Well said tadawdy ! Most people don't realize that different lifestyles, ages and gender determine ideal nutrition. The winner in his age class 16-20 I think, in The Race Across America had his father as a support team in a van and aside from what little his father had carried, the boy lived on liqorish and stopping for cheeseburgers, a diet that's not "healthfull", it just goes to show; he's young and excercising extraordinarilly. I'm not suggesting that you or anyone needs meat, things aren't so simple.
A woman needs more Colesterol while pregnant that is rec. by nutrition specialists for "average" people, more than max. actually, WAY more.

We all need essential Amino acids, some is found in most things, enough is found in very few, other than meat. Beans and other foods are considered near "perfect foods" in that regard. www.vegsoc.org/info/protein.html they've
a table at the bottom of the page. Beans are great. Buy 'em dry and cook
them MORE than the directions say. For EX.. if it says to boil for an hour OR soak them overnight.. do BOTH.. AND simmer for more than you'd think on low. Avoid draining, allow them to steam somewhat drier, adding just a tiny bit of water here and there IF required. I eat little meat, eat as these sites suggest and have lost 140lbs. Steamed dried beams rule !

Like i said in my first post, these deficiencies only manifest if you vastly under eat. There is no way to be protein deficient on a plant based diet if you eat sufficient calories. Just look at the wiki's for marasmus and kwashiorkor both only happen when your severely malnourished.

If its so obvious why don't they have scientific fact to back it up? Feel free to try to prove plant sources are some how inferior, you won't find any literature to back you up.

http://chestofbooks.com/health/natur...-Proteins.html

I personally avoid foods that contain oxalic acid and tannins, there are only a few and there easy to get by without.


Link to this value system?

B-12 isn't from meat... its made by bacteria, http://hygienehealth.mydietblogger.c...ndex.php?s=B12 . Iron is abundant in plant foods, this is a major scare tactic used by most people. Most plant based foods contain iron in sufficient amounts, eating just one watermelon which is nothing will give me 30%+ of my recommended value


Generally accepted by who? our brain washed culture? according to that formula i would need 132 grams of protein a day. Do you realize how insane that is? Babies only need 6% protein and that's the time in your life when you need the most protein! According to the government(who i think is still overestimating) i need less then half that amount of protein...

It actually makes it easier especially if the majority of your cals are from fruit, my glycogen stores are massive and i can go for very long without "bonking". Maybe if you under eat on salads all day it will be more difficult...

Almost every single fruit contains all the essential amino acids!

Nice little expert i came across

This is also a very long but very interesting read, http://www.mombu.com/medicine/heart/...n-3016632.html

Although I don't disagree that you will most likely get enough protein if you eat enough (non-junkfood) calories, 2-5% of your daily food intake seems to be quite low. Having a protein intake of around 10-15% of your daily calories would be much more reasonable. Getting this isn't hard, given that wheat flour is about 15% protein by calories and many vegetables are over 20% protein. As long as you aren't eating a ton of junk food and fruit, you are probably going to be fine as a cyclist.

Idegen breast milk contains 6% protein, babies need more protein then adults because they are growing rapidly. 2-5% is perfect amount, maybe upwards toward ten if you really wanna bulk up.

These are obviously extreme examples, but that is one way hypotheses are tested in math and science. Insert zero or infinty for a variable and see what happens. In this case, it demonstrates that it is possible to cause a medically-defined illness by protein deficiency, while eating sufficient calories.

Biased websites don't qualify as "literature." As a rule you don't cite things that are considered general knowledge, anyway. It's when you diverge from common wisdom that you need to show your reasoning. I couldn't find a modern study specific to human cellulose digestion, because it was figured out so long ago.

What do you think insoluble fiber is? it's largely cellulose we can't digest, because we don't harbor the bacteria that produce cellulase. There are some plant substances we can't digest, and that block the absorption of nutrients. Though there is some coevolution between us and the plants we eat (ignoring selective breeding for a second), they still evolved defense mechanisms without us specifically in mind. Some of the very substances we are finding to be beneficial to us are defense compounds, such as the lsrge class of bitter alkaloids. Other species can't eat them, and some of us don't like the taste. There are other substances that are potentially harmful to us in the same plants.

Those were used as examples (e.g. , not i.e.). Most leafy greens are rich in both antioxidants and minerals (like calcium). You can't get to the minerals very well without cooking them well, though, and this decreases the antioxidant concentration.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_value a reasonable explanation. BV actually does not include digestibility. Something to consider.

Though vegetarians often say they get B12 from decaying plant material, since we don't harbor those bacteria in our guts,some people in your own camp seem to disagree with that.



The range is usually given as 0.8-2.0 g/kg/day. Sedentary people get by with less. Highly active individuals need more. The top of the range about (over 1.8) is generally reserved for those trying to gain muscle mass, though you'll see claims of benefits up to 4g/kg/day (although you are way into diminishing returns there, and it would probably only apply to bodybuilders.) We are not talking health here, we're talking athletic performance. Just as there is a large gradient of activity levels in the population, there are going to be differences in hutrient needs. It isn't what's necessary for survival, it's what is optimal for your lifestyle.

And this is the real problem with a lot of nutrition arguments. Most of the government recommendations for micro- and macronutrients are based on the amounts you need to keep a certain percentage of the population from developing diseases of deficiency. They are not the amounts that support optimal health, and they are not necessarily applicable to special cases, such as high-volume athletes.

I appreciate your questioning of the system, and I agree with the healthfulness of a mostly vegetarian diet. I think you would really find a course in nutrition interesting. I'm not telling you to get indoctrinated, but you seem passionate about the subject, and you can always object to the system better with more knowledge of it. It's good for us to have dissenting voices around.

Veganism isn't perfect, though, because we aren't perfect herbivores.

You're knowledgeable for sure but I bet you can't name the single most perfect food.
It's been eaten by man in Eurasia for thousands of years. Neanderthal ate it, perhaps even earlier he. It contains every single essential an nonessential amino acid and valueable trace minerals as well. I've given too many hints.

I don't know about the science of it all, but I can tell you what I've experienced.

I'm female, and have been a vegetarian for about 9 years. When I first starting to ride and really clean up / focus on my diet, I didn't worry too much about my protein intake, and did just fine. Normal amounts of tofu, tempeh, yogurt etc.

However, now in my third year of cycling and really starting to "train" instead of just riding lots, I noticed that my leg muscles were not able to keep pace with my aerobic system, that I felt run-down for days after hard efforts, and that it was just generally hard to get to the next level.

Enter a whey protein supplement and most of those symptoms have disappeared. I recover much faster and more fully from hard efforts, feel less run down, and I can slowly feel my legs getting stronger - largely, I believe, as they are now getting enough fuel to properly repair and build muscle.

So yes, for an average person, even one who is above average in terms of activity, there is likely no need to supplement as long as you eat well, but for one who is actively training, I think supplementation to a vegan or vegetarian diet is helpful.

TO THE OP - if this is your first year of cycling seriously, I wouldn't worry about it. Track what you eat, keep an eye on eating well and adjust things if you feel you need to. Likely you'll be just fine until you start to really "train" (hard, painful, puke inducing training). Otherwise just eat clean and well. On the bike snacks that I enjoy include Lara Bars, Clif Bars, Homemade Oatmeal cookies, figs, dates etc.

+++
It's a training volume thing. Endurance athletes burn protein, right along with carbohydrates. The more you ride, the more total protein you need. Endurance athletes actually need more protein than bodybuilders. Specialized long distance riding fuels contain 15%-25% protein, with the lower figure more common and proven adequate. Figuring 250 cal/hr total fuel intake, a 12 hour double century entails a protein intake of about 425 cal/4 = 107g. You're not going to get that from carrots! But soy or whey both work fine.

Like trigger says, if your legs go dead or start to hurt while on the bike, you need more protein. Some kind of daily supplement smoothie(s) will fix you right up.

Hemprider:
We all believe in science, right? So the scientific method goes: hypothesis, experiment, theory. Right? So you have a hypothesis that cyclists should be fruitarians and need only 2-3% protein in their diet. Is that right? So I challenge you to prove your hypothesis through experiment. Work up to a monthly mileage of at least 800 miles for a couple of months. Then take it easier for a week and ride a double century in under 12 hours. All the while eating only fruit. Let us know how it goes.

What I propose is not even hard. It's nothing unusual for a sport cyclist. Pretty much anyone can do it, and tons of people do. Except for the fruit part, of course. Oh - no pretzels or chips, either. You won't want to get too much salt.

^^^ Carbonfiberboy ... thanks for the hard, painful, puke inducing workouts BTW, they're working as intended.

A little :cry: a little:wtf:a little :eek:, but mostly :thumb:

The experiment is already in full effect, i eat 95% fruits 5% tender leafy greens and bike on average 20-30 miles a day. Only just started rode biking about a month ago but have been eating this way for a couple months. I'll let you know how it goes when i attempt a double century, I'm fairly positive i could already ride a double century in under 12 hours tho..

If you wanna see some one who has acutally put this method to practice for over 2 years and competes in mega endurance marathons(and often wins them) then look no farther then Durianrider( http://www.youtube.com/user/durianriders ).

By the way i said 2-5% not 2-3%, why would we need more? You think you need more protein then a growing baby??

Growing babies don't ride much. Me, I don't grow at all. It's the time spent with a high HR that burns protein. You should peruse this material:
http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HN...ance%20Library
And read everything in their Free Knowledge category in the left navbar. You can ignore the material about their products, but their information about the requirements of endurance cycling are right on. I've been riding 4000-5000 miles/year for about 15 years and I've never found anything on the Hammer website that didn't work in practice or was just plain wrong. Of course consuming their products on a hard ride in the heat might make you barf. But that's normal. Anything can do that - that's not a negative reflection on their products or information. Chris Ragsdale drank 16 cans of Ensure Plus in 29 hours on the way to his win in this year's Furnace Creek 508. And some Hammer products and other miscellaneous food. Though he had planned to use more Hammer products, the Ensure just felt better this year.

Talking just a bit about riding and routes: a moderately hilly route will have about 50' of climbing/mile. A very hilly ride will have twice that. When you can average 18 over a 60 mile, moderately hilly route, once or twice per week, you have developed some speed and endurance. A century with 10,000' of climbing might cut your average to 15-16, but should be doable with that 200 miles/week training load.

So there are some goals for you. Have fun and keep us posted.