Yen

I am trying to find the correct balance of nutrients for long rides. My weekly long ride is 40 miles with the group on Saturday with a breakfast stop in the middle (I work full time and have other commitments). I am working on building my endurance for longer group rides (60+ miles).

I'm a 54-year-old woman in pretty good shape for my age. I lost some weight several years ago by changing my lifestyle and have successfully kept it off with regular exercise and avoiding sweets (except during/after rides), heavy fatty foods, and overeating in general. This becomes tricky when I try to build and maintain muscle mass after strenuous workouts at the gym and during/after strenuous endurance rides.

I take food bars (Cliff or Nature Valley) or homemade oatmeal cookies on long rides, taking 1-2 bites every 15-30 minutes (depending on how I feel) to sustain my energy. I try to not wait until I get hungry before I eat. However, I am wondering if I should be "training my body to use fat as a fuel" rather than depending on carbs during a ride.

I am assuming this means to avoid eating during a ride just because I think I need to, and instead wait until my body tells me it needs some fuel, then take some bites, and wait again. This principle would not apply to hydration ---- e.g. I wouldn't wait until I am thirsty on a hot day before I drink.

I'd appreciate the how's and why's of this principle so I can apply it for endurance training and proper weight management.

Lamp-Shade

Food does not equal energy. Just riding, you're already burning more body stores of glycogen and body fat than the energy you take in.
It sounds like you're eating when you dont have to. You're making it complicated. That's too stressful. Just ride longer and eat when you need to.
Riding on an empty stomach helps, along with having a lower carb diet in general, for teaching your body how to stop relying on little sissy bites and actually start using what it has.

Machka 

You've got about 2000 calories of fuel in your liver and muscles (and this does not mean your muscles are damaged in any way when you use this fuel ... your muscles have storage cells). Burning 500 calories per hour means that you could conceivably ride 4 hours and not have to eat. However, if you want to be able to ride longer, it's a good idea to eat while riding.

The general concensus is to consume about 250 calories per hour. You're still burning more than you're eating, but by doing that you could conceivably ride 8 hours rather than just 4 hours ... and feel good the whole way through. Don't wait till you feel hungry. If you feel hungry on the bicycle, you're already in the early stages of bonking.

As for the nibbling technique ... that's a very good idea. It is difficult to eat a whole energy bar, cookie, or whatever in one go. Nibbling makes food easier to digest and encourages you to eat more and eat more regularly.

For your 40 mile rides, I would eat the 250 calories per hour for practice, because it is a good habit to get into for longer rides and it's good to find out what sits well with you when you ride. But as your ride more, and as the 40 miles becomes more and more second nature, you'll be able to get away with fewer calories consumed during the ride.

chasm54

OK, I'm no physiologist but I've read a lot about this because I'm interested. You don't really have to "train" your body to use body fat as a fuel, that is what it does naturally while you're just cruising along. I believe there have been some studies that have shown it to be a good idea not to eat before you start your ride, so you have low blood sugar and will immediately start to metabolise fat for fuel. But don't overdo this, obviously. When you feel you need to eat, eat.

I have to tell you that I think a 40-mile ride is short enough for you not to have to eat at all. Certainly a 40-mile ride with a breakfast stop means that you absolutely do not need to eat on the bike. Forty miles is roughly my usual training ride on a Saturday. I go fairly hard, never take food (though plenty of water) and have never felt close to bonking for lack of energy. Sixty miles is a different matter, I'd start to nibble within a half-our or so of the start in order to ensure that I was still strong at the end. But if your long ride is 40 miles, and you want to burn fat, I'd say don't eat until it's over.

gitarzan

I'm diabetic and on prednisone as well. I'd love to know the answer to that.

umd

It needs to be pointed out that this is not really correct. You store glycogen in your muscles and liver but you don't burn glycogen exclusively when you ride. The higher the intensity, the higher the ratio of carbohydrate to fat oxidation. One could ride all day at a low intensity without burning through their glycogen stores. Personally I've ridden a lot longer than 4 hours without eating anything.

spooner

Your body burns fuel based on availability and need. Generally speaking it burns sugars first, then complex carbs, then proteins, then fat, and finally muscle.

If you eat a pre-ride meal your body will burn those calories as your ride in the above order. So if you eat a peanut butter sandwich your body will burn the sugars from the bread, then the carbs, then the protein in the PB, and finally the fat from the peanut oil.

If you use up all those calories during your ride your body will start to go to the reserves.

It's at this point your body will start using fat for energy. Only after all the other sources have been used.

So if you want to burn fat you're best to do a ride before breakfast without eating. Your performance won't be the best but you don't have to do sprint training. Just do a long sustained ride. Maybe 90 minutes at a steady pace where you can carry on a conversation without breathing heavy.

Now this isn't going to 'train' your body to burn fat. If you eat a banana on your ride your body will stop burning the fat and go back down the list. First the sugars in the banana....

https://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...sCGngD9G408M80

colombo357

Don't waste your time and effort worrying about burning fat vs. glycogen. It's self defeating.

Concentrate on enjoying the bike ride and improving your fitness. The weight loss will come from the caloric deficit.

gregf83 

+1

If you want to burn a higher percentage of fat you need to ride easier. The harder you ride the faster you'll burn through your limited (around 2000 Cals) Glycogen stores. As you gain fitness you will naturally use less glycogen and more fat at a given power output.

How hard are you riding on your long rides? Are you working close to your threshold? Experiment a little and try leaving the clif bar in your pocket and seeing how far you get before you need to eat. Drink coffee only at the breakfast stop. If you are riding at a moderate pace you should be able to get through 40 miles without any food. I wouldn't normally eat unless I'm riding hard for 3+ hrs.

colombo357

Percentage, yes. But you may still burn more fat calories if you ride harder.

umd

But if you ride harder, it makes you hungrier, requiring more replenishment to restore your glycogen. Riding longer at a lower pace is easier to burn off more fat and keep it off. Riding harder burns more calories but harder to keep the defecit.

Richard Cranium

You appear all confused. The topic title is about one subject and your first question is about another.

I guess what you really mean is
The short answer is that exercising at a steady state for longer periods develops muscle fibers that use mostly oxygen and metabolize fat while they do it. Shorter, repeated bouts of intense exercise develop powerful muscle fibers that metabolize mostly sugar and increase your ability to use all energy systems.

Unless you have a very very specific set goal for your exercise sessions, then the best advice is to alternate your exercise so that some of time you go long and steady, and other time you go faster for shorter but repeated sessions.

There is no such thing as exercising for a particular metabolite like sugar or fat. My advice is sound. You exercise both ways to promote exercise volume. Exercise volume is the only variable the predicts weight control and ability to maintain weight control into the future.

Pat

It sounds as if you are doing fine.

Now, I can ride about 60 miles without eating. The thing is there is an old adage "drink before you are thirsty, eat before you are hungry". By the time you have to eat to go farther, it is really too late. You need to take something in before you run out of fuel.

Also, glycogen is a storage carbohydrate. It is easily used by the body as fuel to produce power. Fat is much harder to burn. So why do we have so much fat? Well, the energy content of fat is twice that of glycogen. So if we stored all of our reserves as glycogen instead of fat, we would have to double our fat weight and that would not be pretty.

There is another problem with fat. Fat takes twice the oxygen to yield the same amount of chemical energy (ATP) as burning carbohydrate. So if you are buring fat only, you can only generate half power. That is what happens when you *BONK*. You are burning fat and not going anywhere fast.

If you ride at near your maximum effort, you will burn almost 100% glycogen. If you back off to say 75% effort, you will probably burn about 50% fat and 50% glycogen. Say we are figuring 50 calories per mile, that would mean that at 75% effort, you would get about 2000/50 = 80 miles. I think that is a bit far for me, so I either do not cruise at 75% or I burn more calories or something.

The other thing is on multiday rides, tours and the like, you will need to replace the glycogen you used up on today's ride in order to "reload" in the evening. If you are riding long distances day after day like 80 miles plus, you will need to eat a pile of carbohydrates each day.

As to train for fat burning, I think unfit people are so unfit that virtually any activity is near 100% so they burn just about only carbohydrate. As one gets fit, as you obviously are, your body will burn significant amounts of fat when you are not pushing hard.

Another thing, your body can not make carbohydrates. The body "makes" new carbohydrates by taking proteins (usually muscle) and turning it into carbohydrate. So it is good to replace the carbohydrates you burn in your diet. It is a bit tricky because you really do not know how many calories you burn of fat and of carbohydrate. Also do not get too scared. I do not think that the body will necessarily tear up muscle to replace glycogen stores.

But your nervous system needs something like 500 calories per day (I forget the exact figure). The nervous system does not burn fat ever. So the body will burn muscle to feed the brain. That is why people die on starvation diets. They might have plenty of fat calories but their body is ripping up its muscles to feed the brain and eventually it rips up the heart.

Losing weight is tricky and a matter of balance.

Pitbull Equip

You may enjoy reading the Adkins book for his theory on the subject.

Machka 

Do you mean Atkins? I thought that fad was long gone.

Did they ever determine his cause of death?

umd

Injuries from a fall.

late

It's called Bonk Training.

I don't do it, and I don't really suggest anyone else do it.

But some racers do it, and they say it works.

It's easy. Get up in the morning, ride your bike. Slowly increase
intensity/distance. Black coffee would be OK, but no calories, not even artificial sweetener.

I did try it, wasn't fun. I'm in it for the fun.

Lamp-Shade

Caused by severe dizziness related to glycogen deficiency

Yen

Thank you all for your thoughtful and very helpful replies! You've given me a lot to chew on.

Carbonfiberboy 

This document answers your question:
https://www.heartzones.com/_pdf/FatBu...posted8305.pdf

Old document. I get a processing error with the latest Adobe reader, but it still works well enough.

Basically, I don't think it works that way, training-wise. Your body's not that smart. It does what it has to do to accomplish the task you give it. I believe the record for riding without eating or drinking is well over 200 miles, done by an extremely talented and trained individual.

gregf83 

I rode my first century today (165km in ~5:30) and only drank water during the ride. During the last hour I had trouble thinking of anything else other than food but I didn't bonk. I probably cheated though and ate a fairly big breakfast.

Pitbull Equip

I think most people have an incorrect view of the Atkins diet. (thanks for the correction) If you read the book, it isn't about eating bacon and cheese for weight loss and it is not no carb, or even that low of carb intake, as long as you are loosing weight. You may also want to read the zone diet book, or the anabolic diet. All three speak of what the OP asked about.

Malk4vi4n

Ride before breakfast =)

coasting 

with this thread in mind, yesterday went out without eating breakfast and rode at 90+cadence and keeping heart rate in the fat burning zone which was in the 120s. What a tedious ride it was. It was like riding on a trainer, going nowhere fast. 50 miles that took forever.

umd

But just think how great it would be if you could do such an easy ride and still go a decent speed?