C_Heath

Ive ran this through my head a few times but never acted on it. Heres a good one for you to ponder......

2 men, same age, lets say, both are 185 pound mountain bikers and one is just as fast as the other and both have the same ability. They agree to try to different trianing methods for 6 months each. Rider #1 does no addition riding but goes on a big diet, cutting carbs fat and calories and looses 35 pounds down to 150 pounds.

Rider #2 Does not change any eating habits whatsoever but does start working hard on the bike, intervals, 2x20 threshold tests and all. His RHR drops way low and his MHR picks up 10 beats. His overall fitness is increased by leaps and bounds but still weighs 185 pounds.

At the end of the 6 months, the riders take to the course to see which one paid off the most, the huge weight loss or the dramatic increase in performance.

Power to weight is affected in the same way here but by two completely ends of the spectrum.

So which rider will win and why?

Carbonfiberboy 

Been there, done that. Rider #1 won't make weight without trashing his fitness. Rider #2 slaughters rider #1. Training is the hammer. It'll be close on the climbs, but #2 will win on the flats and descents. Rider #2 might do 300w @ LT, which would be equaled by #1 at 242w at LT. Unlikely, but even if true, #2 still wins on everything but climbs. Tried it both ways. Best thing for me is to get stronger now, worry about the weight later.

hshearer

I give CFB an A+. No diets for me! But lots of training.

C_Heath

very nice, anyone else? Ive done it backwards since its winter and all. Ive shed about 25 and wondered if I could keep up with the boys now. I dont feel strong yet for sure.

Carbonfiberboy 

Still plenty of time to get after it! Part of my rationale for getting stronger first is to up my wattage. Then in spring it takes less time to scrub off excess weight. OTOH, I never need to lose more than about 10 lbs. Lost 17 one spring, between January and May.

Smallguy

I really think we need more info spcifically what wattage they were each putting out before ?

do you mena rider 1 did no riding or just was doing a JRA routine?

guess it also depends on the course too

C_Heath

yes, #1 just did a crash diet, no extra training, just ridin.

gregf83 

Rider #1. I don't think there are many competitive 185lb mtn bikers. Of course, it's not possible to determine without knowing their body composition ahead of time. The correct answer is to lose as much upper body mass as possible, get as lean as possible and train hard.

C_Heath

This is my approach. Ive been 190 pounds for years, in 2006 I rode tons and lost down to 175. I yo yo'd to 185 and back till sept 1st when I did my first full round of p90x in 3 attempts. I actually finished and lost 22 pounds. Now, Im 169-172 depending. I still want to see the 150's but its hard to keep it in the 160's. Real hard. You have to eat clean clean clean. If I can get the "last ten" off, Ill be straight. That will put me in the high 150's and then I can start in for 2011. Im just a rec rider with a few short track races per year but I have buddies that have to wait on me and I dont like it.

Merry Christmas everyone.

fishermba2004

So there I was in the group ride going up a false flat at 18MPH...and I worked my way up to two other riders with PowerTaps.

The woman in front is probably 130#. She's putting out ~150 watts.
Her husband, in second position is probably 190-200# and putting out ~220 watts
I'm in third position at 215-220# putting out ~300 watts.

My guess is I'd be faster after dropping 20 pounds than number 2 above would be if he gained 10-15 pounds of muscle.

caloso

A few nits to pick:

You cannot raise your maximum heart rate through training. It's genetically determined. But you can raise your lactate threshold heart rate. Perhaps that's what you meant.

jyjyjy81

Caloso...true that about max hr (makes me laugh when the boys in the club strut their max HR #)

I am 6' and bounce between 185 - 190 lbs..(was 199 lbs once post vacation and that was "enough is enough") Although I would love to be 175 - 180 lbs I just am not strong enough to get there. That is damn hard work to lose weight and I have a profound respect for those who lose the weight AND keep it off.

Just my two cents.

C_Heath

your absolutely right. Thats what I meant.

Malloric

Too many variables. Let's say they are highly trained and leaps and bonds means a 3% increase. Now let's assume the course is 30 minute climb up a 10% average gradient. Contestant weight loss is going to slaughter contestant training. Even on a pancake flat course Mr. Diet might well come out ahead due to lower coefficient of friction, especially if the course was longer and in a high humidity high temperature area.
Let's say they are not highly trained, just your average Fred weekend club rider. The guy who trains might see a 10-20% increase. The dieter probably still comes out a better mountain goat, but not by much and only on the steep inclines.
Finally, let's say they are coach potatoes. The guy who trains might come out with a 60+% improvement.

Garfield Cat

From all this, if you want to race or just be a very fit rider, you gotta pay attention to both the body fat and the conditioning.

Nikephoros

I'm wondering why you can train a bunch and eat better at the same time. This is a classic false dilemma.

stlutz

Training a lot and losing weight at the same time usually doesn't work because endurance athletics makes you hungry. Yeah, maintain fitness while losing weight, but if you do a 5 hour ride you'll just eat all the calories you just burned. So, I say do #1 first, then do #2.

Hammonjj

A couple of things:

1) You can do both at the same time (lose weight and gain fitness although losing weight will, and should, be SLOW).

2) How much you weigh is largely irrelevant if your body eats all it's own muscle during the weight loss process. You want to be lean, not necessarily light.

3) The heavier rider may or may not win. If they are doing a time trial then the heavy guy has advantage on the flats and descents. If they are raising head-to-head, then the little guy should suck wheel until the climb at the end and blow the doors off the other guy (if there is one).

James

Richard Cranium

Which ever rider you assume will.

Setups like the one you posted are meaningless. There's no use attempting to speculate when and if weight loss will trump additional conditioning. They are both facets of a single continuum. They can not exist independent of each other. Even if they do in this thread.

C_Heath

Merry Christmas!

fishermba2004

You will get closer to that maximum though. I have 6000 miles of Garmin data with a 172 max and no more than 5-10 seconds at 170. The following year I was able to hit 176 and sustain 170 for 1:30-2 minutes

C_Heath

He can nit pick all he wants but I max out at 185 in feb but in sept, I max out at 192. Next feb, same thing. After I ride all season, I have more. It is what it is.

DannoXYZ 

Your real max is 192 in Sept. Just that you may not have the training or strength to push it that hard in Feb. or you were at an overtrained part of a cycle.

There's two combinations you want to consider. Power-to-weight does matter in the hills, but is worthless on the flats. On the flats, max and average-speed rules and that's a matter of power-to-aero-drag. Body-size only increases as a square function while weight is a cube function. That means heavier riders don't block as larger a portion of wind as their weight. So the 185-lb rider won't block 20% more wind than the 150-lb rider, maybe only 10%. But his 20% higher power-output will have him completely slaugther the 150-lb rider on the flats.

Also as previously mentioned, you can do a combination of both. A lot of times, if you're not at 4-5% body-fat, you can lose mostly blubber weight and keep all the muscle-mass with training. This gives you the best of both worlds, less mass AND higher power-output. So the question that needs to be answered is what is your body-fat %?

C_Heath

Danno!

C_Heath

no idea but my bmi is 23 is that bad lol. Im 170 @ 5'9"