colombo357

Anyone cross train on an elliptical machine? I like the idea of standing for a change.

The weekly goal would 100 miles on the road bike and 2-3 hours on the elliptical, as opposed to 150 miles on the bike.

late

Plan on spending a LOT of time learning about those machines before you buy.
Make sure you try a Octane. I am not expert on the things, but I did consider buying one.
I liked the Octane the best, but it was close to 3 grand.

I wound up getting a Concept 2 rower. It is superb. I'd suggest getting
one used (and only that brand) but try to get one with a PM3 or PM4
'computer'. Mine is an older model, doesn't have the games, and trust me, they
help a lot.

ericm979

Spending time on an eliptical instead of riding is not going to make you faster on the bike.

late

Cross training is a terrific idea. His fitness goals may not match yours.

I ride a little, hike a little, and go to the gym.

In the winter I use my rower, the trainer, and usually do a few resistance exercises at home.

telebianchi

If you live someplace where you can put in 100-150 miles on the bike each week but want to mix things up, just go run. Or find big hills to hike up.

ericm979

Maybe he has goals other than cycling, but he doesn't say that and this is a cycling forum, so the obvious assumption is that he wants to be a better cyclist.

How is cutting from 150 miles a week to 100 and spending a couple hours on an eliptical machine going to make him faster on the bike? Can you point us to a study that shows it?

bikejrff

I do not ride in the winter so I use my elliptical 5-6 times a week. My usual workout is 10K, in 40 minutes. The brand is Vision Fitness and it is 13 years old and is a basic model, I think it cost $1K from my LBS. Still works like brand new, never any problems. I used to run/jog but it was hard on my knees and that is why I love the elliptical, never any knee issues, no stress.I don't think using the elliptical makes me a better cyclist, but it is good cardio. I did ride my bike on a trainer at my LBS this past winter, twice a week in Jan/Feb for the first time. Now THAT did help me become a better cyclist this year. I was more prepared for the riding season which arrived early this year...March...even did a century on the last day of winter.2012 YTD miles= 6700.

Donsell

I do approximately 100 miles a week on a bike. 3 days a week I cross train, but mix it up using an elliptical, row or jump rope. The elliptical is great, but you have to push yourself or the machine does too much of the work for you. Try doing intervals - as fast as you can go for 30 seconds, recover for 30 seconds - for 15 or 20 minutes, or warm up for 5 minutes then move the resistance setting up a notch every minute for as long as you can while keeping the same cadence.

I can't say it makes me a better biker, but it has improved my overall fitness.

late

He didn't say he wanted to be faster

He did say he wanted to cross train.

telebianchi

How do you know it improved your overall fitness? I'm not being a sarcastic jerk in asking that. I am seriously curious as to why you think the elliptical helped your fitness more than if you had done similar intensity workouts on the bike.

My thoughts on elliptical trainers, having tried them several times at the gym or at hotels when travelling for work, is that if used with proper intensity they can definitely give one a good cardio workout. The downside is that the motion that you do on an elliptical is only going to make you a better elliptical user. It does not relate to anything I do outside of a gym. If I'm stuck inside I would much rather use a spin cycle (NOT the funky LifeCycle style equipment), stair climber or treadmill (preferably one that can go to a 15 degree or more incline).

Donsell

I don't take this as being sarcastic jerk at all. I track my recovery heart rate. I do a workout trying to keep my heart rate in my optimum zone based on my age for an extended period of time. Then I measure it again after 2 minutes of rest. The rate at your heart recovers is one way to measure cardio fitness. Since adding high intensity intervals on the elliptical I've seen improvement. But there are a lot of ways you could do the same thing, even jumping rope.

I like the elliptical because it has zero impact. I have some knee problems from playing football and wrestling when I was younger. Running and stairs bother them so I chose the elliptical.

ratdog

I also would recommend an Octane Fitness. I found them to be the most natural in terms of a running type motion. A lot of other elliptical machines I tried before getting my Octane had very choppy motions. In essence it's my opinion that the the Octane simulated running the closes without the brutal impact to the knees and joints. It also gave a workout to the upper body by using the handle bars.

As far as whether an elliptical improves your overall fitness everyone has a different opinion. Mine is that you are working more muscles than just riding a bike and there also is no coasting while on an elliptical so my energy expended is more constant and my heart is working more consistently.

FYI for the OP, you can buy an Octane used, just keep in mind that the original logic boards on some of them were having issues. I had mine changed just before the warranty expired & that is what the repairman told me in 2009. FYI, my only regret was not getting the hand grip HR monitor.

https://www.octanefitness.com/

BarracksSi

That's why I can't stand ellipticals, either. I tried them to get some cardio without the pounding of running, and I swear they don't fit me and they make my limbs move funny (or maybe I'm just too uncoordinated).

If it's so bad outside that I can't bike or run, and I still want to go outdoors, I'd invest in cross-country skiing.

There's so much more than can be done for cross training, and for a lot less money, that I would not spend a dime on an indoor cardio machine if I can help it.

Cross training should help you work on what you do the least. The bike is already helping you with cardio endurance and, depending on your rides, leg strength. What you're NOT getting from the bike is upper body strength, agility, and overall core stability. Even though an elliptical moves your whole body, it really doesn't do that much for you that the bike doesn't already do now. I'd say to spend your money elsewhere (that is, if you were planning on buying an elliptical to keep at home).

Carbonfiberboy 

Doesn't sound to me like he's contemplating buying. I'm not a big fan of ellipticals. I do like the Stairmaster Stepmill, however:
https://stairmaster.com/products/stepmill-5/
better known as the Stairway to Hell.

The Stepmill is something different to do in the winter and it helps keep the quads balanced and the kneecap tracking straight - at least I think it does. Seems to help my knees, anyway. I use it for base. 1 to 1.5 hrs. of Z3 will have your legs quivering real good. 45 minutes of Z2 makes a decent recovery workout. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to make the slightest difference in my performance standing on the bike. One would think it would, but it doesn't. Specificity. But then neither does an hour of spin class, since those machines are all fixies. Not really any help with pedaling mechanics on a freewheel bike, but you do get a lot better on a spin bike.

late

Hopefully the OP will come back and give us an update.

It's a bit annoying when they don't.

colombo357

Hi. Thanks to all who responded.

The deal is that the 150 miles are being cut to 100 miles no matter what, due to work scheduling.

I'd rather make up those 50 miles on something other than a fluid trainer. I can't stand putting on my chamois, jersey, helmet, gloves, sunglasses, and sunscreen just to ride in my living room.

dnuzzomueller

You know you really only need the helmet, gloves, sunglasses and sunscreen in order to ride in your living room.

BarracksSi

Yeah, no kidding. Just the helmet, glov.... uh... what?

BarracksSi

If the lone factor is time, then just ride faster. You'll still get those 150 miles.

I still say to save 90% of your money and get a book instead. Googling for "bodyweight exercise book" got me this, which I wouldn't bother posting if it weren't for the glowing reviews:
https://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Your-O.../dp/0971407614

BarracksSi

Of course, if all you want to do is get better on the bike, then stay on the bike. Ride harder, climb more, do intervals, etc.

rumrunn6

cross training is good. I found that my routine of running; cycling; swimming & weight training provided shared benefits that I enjoyed in all sports. sometimes you add something to a routine because it's easy to add it. if it floats your boat, go for it. I can't do elipticals myself because I feel imabalanced like I'm going to fall over or something. now, give me a treadmil and I'll run no problem.

chinarider

Not trying to high jack the thread, but I hope you're not using 220-age to determine your optimum zone.

bikerbert

I've always wanted to write about this because I think it is an extremely interesting topic. A machine that has allowed broken runners to continue to move. It actually activates more glute maximus than walking. There is virtually no impact on the lower body as you move. Sounds pretty good doesn't it?


On the surface, it would appear that it does. Looking a little bit deeper reveals a lot more.


I'm not going to tell you to never use one again. What I am going to do present you with information on how these machines alter how we are meant to move, what the muscles affected are supposed to do when we walk and what some of the potential negative long term use implications are. After that, it is up to you to form your own opinion. I will tell you however, that the two elliptical machines I inherited when I bought my facility, are no longer there.


Always the go to option for doctors to runners who want to remain active, the studies I read indicate an elliptical machine might not be the best option due to the fact it keeps the hips in a fixed range of motion. For people with tight hip flexors like 80+% of the 600+ endurance athletes I've talked to, worked with, corresponded with and train directly this isn't something that would make sense to add in to their training program.


Especially since all of them had one thing in common: lack of glute function due to over active and shortened hip flexors due to the repetitive stress nature of endurance sports. This in addition to sitting with the hips in a flexed position for hours on end five days a week.


Adding in an activity that keeps the hips in a fixed flexed position as well as one that promotes anterior pelvic tilt (which will shorten hip flexors) makes it easy to see how prescribing the use of one these things would be counter intuitive from a strength and conditioning perspective.


Before we break down how you an elliptical machine may be detrimental long term, let's talk about the above mentioned because it will give you an idea of the progression of regression once muscle imbalances take place.




Here are the typical postural distortion patterns seen at INTEGRATE Performance Fitness:

• Forward rounded shoulders
• Increased lumbar spine curvature or anterior pelvic tilt
• Decreased neural control of the lower body
• Tight Muscles: psoas/quads, hamstrings/calves¸glutes/ IT Band, pecs (chest), delts (shoulders), traps, neck flexors/extensors/rotators
• Weak Muscles: Glutes/ hip stabilizers, lower abdomen, lats, spinal erectors
• Overactive: hip flexors, traps, quads, adductors, neck flexors, deltoids, biceps
• Dysfunctional movements: poor balance, poor rotation, decrease hip extension, improper breathing, poor joint mobility, over active traps, over active hamstrings
• Joint Pain: low back, knee, neck, shoulders, elbows

All of these things occur because of the dysfunctional movement patterns caused by sitting all day at a desk and repetitive stress muscle imbalances. So, what does this have to do with using an elliptical machine on a regular basis?





Elliptical machines have shown that medial hamstring, gastrocnemius, soleus, and tibialis anterior muscle activation were decreased during use (Similarity of Joint Kinematics and Muscle Demands Between Elliptical Training and Walking: Implications for Practice, Judith M. Burnfield, Yu Shu, Thad Buster and Adam Taylor). So let's talk about this in terms of what those muscles do in our gate cycle as we walk, and we begin to see how one of these machines can affect your body.



The National Academy of Sports Medicine's "Essentials of Corrective Exercise," outlines the function of the above mentioned under active muscles as follows:
Medial Hamstrings
Decelerate knee, hip extension (push off phase of walking), stabilizes lumbo-pelvic hip complex and knee.


Gastrocnemius (upper calf)
Stabilizes foot and ankle complex, decelerates dorsiflexion (toes to the shin)


Soleus (lower calf): Decelerates dorsi flexion, stabilizes foot and ankle


Tibialis Anterior: stabilizes arch of the foot, ankle plantar flexion


"During walking, the tibialis anterior muscle is primarily responsible for foot elevation during swing, which is followed by controlled lowering during weight acceptance. Tibialis anterior muscle activity was reduced on the elliptical trainer because the elliptical pedal provided continuous external support for the foot (this has implications given that this muscle stabilizes the arch of our feet).


However, because of its dual role as a knee flexor muscle and an ankle plantar flexor muscle, the gastrocnemius muscle would have contributed an undesirable knee flexor muscle force at a time when the vastus lateralis muscle was rapidly increasing amplitude to support the flexed knee.


During the remainder of the elliptical cycle, gastrocnemius and soleus (two muscles that stabilize our ankles and feet) muscle activities were reduced and peaked earlier (mid stance instead of the terminal stance for gait). The lack of a single-limb support period during elliptical training eliminated the need to support the full body weight on one leg (Similarity of Joint Kinematics and Muscle Demands Between Elliptical Training and Walking: Implications for Practice, Judith M. Burnfield, Yu Shu, Thad Buster and Adam Taylor)."


We've got three things coming into play here that have potential negative implications long term. The first of which is that muscles responsible for the stabilization of our ankles, feet and arches are showing decreased function with one of these machines.


The second one is that when these muscles are working, they are not firing in the same pattern as our natural gait. The third is due to the two legged support of the pedals on an elliptical machine, this is in direct opposition of how we are supposed to move when we walk, supported by one leg as the other one goes through the gait pattern. This can lead to a whole host of single leg stabilization issues that may need to be corrected at some point.


Your body doesn't know muscles, only movements and it is phenomenally efficient at rewiring the way it functions with enough repetitive stress. Alter enough muscle firing patterns, and you begin to alter the way those muscles move the bones. Do this, and you can end up injuring soft tissue.


So taking the above mentioned muscles (medial hamstring, gastrocnemius, soleus, and tibialis anterior ) into consideration, here are the potential negative side effects of decreased activation as you move:

• Plantar fasciitis
• Posterior Tibialis tendinitis
• Anterior knee pain
• low back pain

NASM has also found this could very well "lead to over pronation of the foot during weight bearing activity (which can induce anterior pelvic tilt, keep in mind, an elliptical machine puts the user in an over pronounced anterior tilt as it is) causing altered alignment of the tibia, femur and pelvic girdle leading to rotational stresses at the lower extremity and pelvis which could lead to increased stress on soft tissues (achilles tendon, plantar fascia) as well as compressive forces on the joints (patellofemoral joint, tibiofemoral joint and sacroiliac joint)."


Take the ramp up higher, and you get into even trickier waters.


"The angle of the ramp can also increase anterior trunk tilt as ramp gets higher (Influence of Ramp Position on Joint Biomechanics During Elliptical Trainer Exercise, Kathleen M. Knutzen1,2,* Wren L. McLaughlin1, Andrew J. Lawson1, Brandi S. Row and LeaAnn Tyson Martin)."


An excessive anterior pelvic tilt shortens hip flexors, shuts down glute and lat function, lengthens the hamstrings (and unfortunately, hamstring stretching is very often prescribed as one of the ways to address excessive anterior pelvic tilt), tightens the quads and thoracic spine mobility in turn affecting shoulder mobility just to name a few things. There are several more including altered breathing patterns which can lead to a whole host of things. Click here to see what those are.


This study also showed that a high ramp setting stresses the ACL (anterior cruciate ligament) and may not be the optimal choice for a knee rehab setting. This is because "shifting your center of mass forward may increase the magnitude of the anterior joint reaction forces acting at the lower extremity joints. Keep in mind anteriorly directed joint reaction forces are opposed by the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL)."


As we walk, the knee is supposed to straighten out twice as our hips extend as we walk, using an elliptical machine keeps the knee in a flexed position throughout the pedal stroke which is unnatural to our gait pattern.




"Data showed when using an elliptical machine the knee stays relatively flexed (bent); whereas when walking the knee straightens at two points in the gait cycle (Elliptical Exercise Machine – What do we know?)."




The concern here is how that affects the rest of the body. One of them is reduced neural drive to a muscle pulled out of alignment from a repetitive stress activity leading to altered joint mechanics.


"During level walking, the COP (center of pressure) started at the heel, while it started at the midfoot during EE (eliptical exercise). This indicates that initial contact was made by the heel during walking, whereas the average of all the forces was on the midfoot at the beginning of the EE cycle. These differences may affect the performance of joint moments (Influence of Ramp Position on Joint Biomechanics Using the Elliptical Trainer, 1875-399X/10 2010, Kathleen M. Knutzen1,2,* Wren L. McLaughlin1, Andrew J. Lawson1, Brandi S. Row1 and LeaAnn Tyson Martin1)."




So, with all of the information presented, are elliptical machines the devil? Should you stop using one?


I think a better question is what are you doing off the machine that combats what it may potentially do to your body on it? Using one periodically, and you can most likely get by relatively unscathed.


Like cycling, if you stay on top of insuring proper function of what I like to call "the big three" (glutes, lower abdominal wall and lats), you can most likely use one and not have it affect you all that much.


If you do use one for your cardiovascular activity, I'd recommend limiting your exposure each week, and be sure to add in running if you are able to, hiking when you can, swimming if you've got access to a pool and riding a bike if you've got one.

BarracksSi

tl;ria (too long; read it anyway)

Cliff's notes: Ellipticals do weird things to your motion that aren't natural (that's why I hate them) and should only be used sparingly.

My interpretation: If it's only good for once, maybe twice, a week, and I can't ride it to work, it's not worth me shelling out the cash.

ducati hyp

Ok whats your take on a step mill **********?