Machka 

Nice to see that the medical professionals are in agreement with each other ... that solidifies the proof.

Dunbar

The science doesn't lie That's the great thing about science, it doesn't leave a whole lot to interpretation. Nobody here is making blanket recommendations.

Machka 

Yeah ... pity about one organisation coming up with one piece of information and the other coming up with different (opposite) information. In many people that would plant a seed of doubt in the "proof", but hey, I'm sure that's just a minor detail.

And there's that word "may" that keeps cropping up, but I'm sure that's just a minor detail too.

Dunbar

That's why it's best to read the studies yourself. Science doesn't leave a whole lot to interpretation. The scientific evidence to support the claim moderate alcohol consumption is beneficial to health is overwhelming. I'm much more interested in what the body of scientific research says than what any one hospital or organization has to say on a particular subject.

BTW, here's a link to a Mayo Clinic physician who does not appear to have as many concerns over moderate alcohol consumption as his employer. I presume that the Mayo Clinic wouldn't post this information on their site if they disagreed with it

"Alcohol can have several positive effects on the body's heart and blood vessels — the cardiovascular system. First, studies have found that drinking alcohol in moderation increases your high-density lipoprotein (HDL) or "good" cholesterol, which helps carry away and break down extra cholesterol in blood that could otherwise block your arteries. Alcohol thins your blood, too, making it less likely that your arteries will form a blood clot. Moderate alcohol intake can lower inflammation throughout your body, as well, and that can also have a positive effect on your cardiovascular system....These factors combine to result in a lower rate of cardiovascular disease in people who drink moderate amounts of alcohol than in people who do not drink alcohol at all. In addition to the heart benefits, moderate alcohol intake can slightly lower your risk of type 2 diabetes, stroke and Alzheimer's disease."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-ed...2/feb-03a.html

Machka 

Oh don't worry ... you have me absolutely convinced!!






(of what, however ... )

Myosmith

Welcome to the world of science, health, and medicine. If you need absolute, irrefutable proof carved in stone by the Almighty himself to consider a body of evidence to be reasonable, then you are going to be disappointed . . . alot. I can't think of a single nutrition plan, diet, medication, medical procedure, type of exercise or device that doesn't have some degree of risk vs. benefit and debate over the interpretation and validity of available evidence.

There is debate about whether or not the benefits of cycling outweigh the risks, and lots of mixed opinions about the available data as to just what those risks and benefits are. It is also true that there are other ways to get the same benefits as cycling so not everyone has to become a cyclist to receive those benefits. I looked at the evidence, decided that there was adequate proof of the benefits of cycling and that I could properly manage the risks to acceptable levels. I took up cycling and so far have been correct in that I am indeed seeing benefits and those benefits have outweighed the risks.

It's the same with my consumption of alcohol. I looked at the body of evidence. Decided that there was adequate proof that there are benefits and that I can mitigate the associated risks to acceptable levels (very limited consumption, no driving or operating dangerous equipment, don't start arguments in biker bars, etc.) and choose to drink no more than one or two drinks, no more than a few times a week.

Absolute proof is an extreme rarity, if it exists at all. 99+% of the time we have to accept a reasonable preponderance of the available evidence as adequate proof on which to base our decisions. If new evidence is introduced or existing evidence is successfully challenged, the balance may swing the other way and I will have to accept the new evidence as proof that my previous decision was wrong.

bmontgomery87

^Solid points, myosmith.

Fat Boy

It's somewhat interesting to me that someone could argue against beer, but for bread. They're largely the same.

Dunbar

Waiving the white flag are we Machka? I kind of figured you had nothing to add to this discussion at this point.

Machka 

You didn't see my whole post did you?

Dunbar

Someone as apparently close-minded as you are are will never admit they are wrong. I'm personally going to side with the science on this one. The rest of BF can decide for themselves who to believe, Machka or the scientists

springs

In the nutrition field, interpretation seems to be everything. Otherwise the paleos, vegans, mediterraneans, high/low/no <pick your poison> folks wouldn't exist. Science is a journey, not a destination. Personally, I think nutrition is like quantum mechanics: nobody really understands it ;-)

Myosmith

Come on guys, this is an interesting subject worthy of intelligent discussion and debate. Let's not flush it by making it personal and petty. It's OK to disagree.

Machka, yours can be sasparilla if you prefer

Dunbar

I won't disagree that the science on diet is anything but clear. The science on moderate alcohol consumption being healthy is about clear cut as you're going to find in the area of epidemiology. Do a pub med search for "moderate alcohol consumption" and all that comes up are studies that show health benefits.

Machka 

Thanks!

My own personal belief, based on what I've read, is that a small amount of alcohol may have health benefits for certain people, or maybe not ... but that eating a healthy diet and exercising may be a better choice.


As this article says ...
https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/b.../pages/Alcohol

Very moderate amounts of alcohol (around half a standard drink a day) may provide health benefits for some middle-aged or older people by reducing the risk of some types of cardiovascular disease. However, people who do not already drink alcohol are not encouraged to take up drinking just to get some health benefits.

Recent scientific evidence suggests that the potential for health benefits may have been overestimated in earlier studies. Possible benefits need to be balanced against the risk of cirrhosis, some cancers and other diseases (which becomes greater with increased alcohol consumption).

The same benefits do not extend to younger people. Drinking alcohol can affect how the brain develops in people under the age of 25. Teenagers under 15 years of age are particularly at risk.

Rowan

The aggressive behaviour demonstrated by one poster in this thread suggests that while "science" -- which is only statistics parading as such -- suggests the physical effects might be OK for low to moderate consumption of alcohol, the effects on the brain and thought processes might be somewhat more deleterious.

In my experience, people who regularly drink think (a) they don't drink much, (b) undergo personality changes that are often not very attractive and (c) will defend ad nauseum the position they have taken until they have the last word.

Dave Cutter

Alcohol is perfectly legal... as are cigarettes and over-the counter drugs. Heck... pot is even somewhat legal in some places. It's pretty much completely culturally, socially, acceptable to self-medicate. And... that is what most of these drugs are used for... self-medicating. I think most over-eating is also a form of self-medicating.

I don't drink or smoke anymore.... although in a past life I did both. I no longer pop pills or donuts ether. I have nothing against those that do drink, smoke, use drugs and or pills.... or even those that eat donuts or potato chips. To each their own.

Although I wouldn't want to be... live.. in any of those places myself. My current fit, healthy, spiritual lifestyle has brought me more actual joy than any other lifestyle I have tried.

Myosmith

If I didn't drink, I certainly wouldn't start for the health benefits. Since I do enjoy good wine or beer, its nice to know that an occasional drink is unlikely to cause me harm and may actually do some good. I'm still pursuing an otherwise healthy lifestyle with good nutrition and a sound mix of exercise including cardiovascular, strength, balance/coordination and flexibility.

In my younger days, I drank more than I should have, though I was never a "heavy" drinker. I also indulged in cookies, pies, brownies, burgers, pizza, soda and other unhealthy food habits and exercised far too little. The bit of exercise I did was strength training and power lifting with almost no aerobic work. I was big, strong, and fat. I'm glad I never smoked or did street drugs, but I did use a lot more over-the-counter medications than I do now. I completely agree that many indulgences are actually self-medication. I know I was eating and drinking like I did because of the way it made me feel (temporarily) not because of what my body needed. Three or four big chocolate chip cookies and a diet Coke (yeah, I know) would make me feel alert and energetic for an hour or so. It wasn't until later in life that I really made the link between that kind of snack and the crash 2-3 hours later. On a subconscious level, the crash just meant that I needed more snacks. I still get the rush from high sugar and/or caffeinated foods and try to avoid them.

Good science is the search for truth but it is still subject to incomplete or misinformation and the data, statistics, evidence collected is open to interpretation. I say good science because there is a lot of poorly conducted science, anecdotal evidence posing as science, or "science" with an agenda out there. Pure science seeks to find the correct answers without bias or preconceived expectation of the outcome. It must include as much relevant data as possible while seeking to eliminate or at least address as many variables as possible. The sample size must be large enough that anomalies don't skew the results. It should be conducted and the results analyzed using double-blind techniques and the results should be repeatable in multiple studies by different researchers. Results are further strengthened by supporting evidence from related studies.The results should be reviewed by reputable and knowledgeable researchers who have no vested interest in the outcome and objective peer review should be welcome.

Dunbar

What a surprise, another passive-aggressive post by Rowan. In my experience, non-drinkers feel the need to constantly defend their decision to not drink by implying that moderate drinkers are closet drunks. They seem to think that otherwise intelligent adults aren't capable of following very black-and-white recommendations as to what constitutes moderate/healthy drinking.

DataJunkie

This generalization implies that even I am a closet drunk while it takes me a month to finish a 6 pack of craft beer. I can assure you that I am far from a closet drunk.
The last time I was drunk was in my early 20s and I am now in my late 30s. I rather detest generalizations, despite making them from time to time.

Here is what is in my fridge at the moment. Everyone should buy a case.

chet31

I only drink on two occasions - when I'm alone, or when I'm with other people.

Fat Boy

As ugly as that mess may be, I prefer it to puritanical self-righteousness.

Carbonfiberboy 

Getting personal is not OK and only proves his point. Cut it out.

Fat Boy

There's the door...

Carbonfiberboy 

//end thread