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Vegetarianism, cycling and general health

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Vegetarianism, cycling and general health

Old 11-15-14, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Interesting links and interesting reading. But we all know that scientists are notorious for contradicting themselves.
Correct, science is built this way as a self correcting mechanism. This is why it works - with enough testing of hypotheses that don't withstand rigorous non-duplication, the hypotheses which are correct eventually become well establish theories (facts). These too may someday be overturned in favor of new knowledge.
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Old 11-15-14, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Vegans can be a pretty militant about their ideology and very aggressive in preaching their dogma...Ever seen lettuce ladies protesting in the streets ??..How about those crazies who paint themselves with fake blood, dress in some fake fur and then protest on the streets ??
These people need to eat some cholesterol and meat to get their minds back on the right track.
Cyclists can be pretty militant about their ideology and very agressive in preaching their dogma. Ever seen a paceline going 28 mph, you join in with your hairy legs and get laughed at? How about Car drivers - they tell us to get on the sidewalk and go buy a car or whatever all the time. These cyclists need to go "fill up" and get their hippie minds out of the gutter -literally!

So it goes with any minority group which is often undertstood. If you tried it - you might understand, is what I end up having to say to the most militant car drivers / anti-cyclist in my life.

As a vegetarian, I am contstantly being harangued for my dietary choice - but I don't preach about it or tell people they need to stop murdering animals or whatever it is you think we are going to automatically tell you when you meet one. All the time people tell me I need to go eat a cheeseburger or "how can you go through life not enjoying the amazingness that is bacon". How do you think that feels? ...And you are the one sitting there telling me I need to go get some cholesterol to get my head "on the right track". Whatever that means.
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Old 11-18-14, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Plenty ???...I would say minority, especially in power sports.
It makes absolutely no difference where the protein comes from for recovery, this includes power sports. But the best nutrition for performance in a particular activity may or may not have anything in common with the best nutrition for your long term health.
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Old 11-19-14, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sprince View Post
But the best nutrition for performance in a particular activity may or may not have anything in common with the best nutrition for your long term health.
Very good point, I agree with you. I don't think it's worth it for any person to completely sacrifice their health in the name of performance, I believe there should be a balance between health and performance.
Every person is different, it's up to an individual to find out what works for them.
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Old 11-23-14, 06:59 AM
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Can a vegan diet work for cyclists? - BikeRadar

Seems germane
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Old 11-23-14, 09:19 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by mgwilder View Post
I'm a vegan. I'm actually on a whole food-plant based diet and have been since June last year. I was diagnosed with CAD (at 51) with 2 arteries completely blocked and the other 3 with major, multiple blockages. I was told I was looking at a quintuple bypass. The change in diet was to reverse this so I wouldn't go under the knife. BTW, In a year I've gone from major blockages in my carotid arteries to none. I have between 2-4 more years for my coronary arteries to reversal.

I can tell you that I dropped more than 30 lbs, need less sleep, stopped snoring, in a better mood, have more energy, am stronger, climb better and am faster than when I raced more than 25 years ago.

YMMV.
I've been away for awhile so I missed most of this discussion. But, I wanted to say that I have had a similar experience to that of mgwilder -- although I fortunately did not start from such a problematic state:

I started a whole food plant based diet in September of last year and have dropped from 195 pounds down to 155 (that' a BMI drop from 29.6 to 23.6) -- and NEVER felt hungry. In fact, that is one of my rules: never skip a meal and never let myself feel hungry because that's when I eat whatever I can get my hands on -- or gorge myself.

Pulde and Lederman attribute that to eating a diet with a calorie density of about 550 calories per pound of food. They say raw and leafy veges have a density of 70-200 calories/Lb, whole grains and legumes 400-600 and meat 1,200 -- while oils have a density of around 4,000 calories/Lb.

In addition to eating whole food plant based foods I do not eat processed foods, oils or added sweeteners of any kind. Essentially just whole fruits and veges, whole grains, and legumes. And, I since that time I have tracked everything that I put in my mouth and had NO deficits -- including protein (although the plant based milks I drink have been fortified with B12.). But I do supplement with vitamin D3 and a multivitamin just for insurance.

In that time I have come off of Crestor 10mg (a moderate/strong dose) and my cholesterol/LDL is down to where it was while taking the statin. I also stopped taking the blood pressure medicines Valsarton and HCTZ and my systolic is still consistently in the teens -- where it was while taking the meds. And, despite eating a 70% carb diet, my A1C remains at 5.4 and fasting glucose in the 80's. So, my 'numbers' are pretty much perfect despite not taking any of the meds I have been on for the past 20 years. Essentially the diet (and exercise) took the place of the medications I had been on for 20 years.

And, last week I had a carotid artery scan to follow up on one that showed moderate plaque buildup three years ago. On this one the frustrated technician stopped half way through the test and demanded to know why I was getting this test -- "Because I'm not seeing ANYTHING!" (The cardiologist later told me that he saw a few small bumps -- but thought they were old ones and unlikely to get worse and could even resolve if I maintained what I have been doing).

As for physical condition: I have never felt better and, according to a body scan last week have actually ADDED a significant amount of muscle mass despite the 40 pound weight loss.

And, I feel mentally sharper and physically more healthy with better energy and FAR less recovery time than I have felt for many, many years...

Unlike mgwilder, I mostly follow the diet proposed by John McDougal which is a starch based diet. He suggests making a starch (rice, whole grain, potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc...) the center of each meal because he believes that you need the starch to provide fullness -- because just eating vegetables simply does not provide enough calories for the bulk. Further, McDougal uses as a basis for his diet the native diet of the easterners who worked on the Hawaiian plantation where he served as a physician. As he points out: the fist generation ate a diet of rice and vegetables and stayed fit, trim, healthy and functional well into their 80's and 90's. But, each following generation ate more Americanized and became ever fatter and ever sicker. But, for me, it is not only the satiety that the starches provide -- but following the more traditional diets makes for simpler, easier to prepare and cheaper meals....
.... But, all that is a minor point: all of the whole food plant based diets are very similar.

And, I strongly agree with mgwilder: a whole food plant based diet is not a diet but a lifestyle...

The ONLY hard parts for me are that it fights against living in a culture dominated by the standard American processed and fast foods drenched in fat, sugar and salt. And it requires a lot more planning and preparation than that same Std American Diet. But, the advantages of better health out weigh all the disadvantages from loss of convenience.

In other words: I do not feel ANY lack eating this diet -- once the pallet adjusts, the taste is actually better and I never feel hungry and cravings are pretty much gone. But, it does take more work. You can't just run into a McD's for a quick fix of alt, sugar and fat.
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Old 11-23-14, 05:30 PM
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I wonder how many vegans live and ride their bikes in very cold climate ??... During some winters when the polar vortex hits us I ride in temps as low as minus -27 Celsius...My body craves animal products which are high in saturated fat , fat is the only food which seems to give me energy to function in cold climate and keep my core/body temperature warm.
Sorry vegans but vegetable oil just doesn't have the same effect as butter, cream, dairy, fatty fish and meat. I bet most vegans have sedentary jobs and ride their bikes on rollers inside their warm living rooms during winter.
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Old 11-23-14, 06:09 PM
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If it works for you, great. I wouldn't propose changing something that's works.
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Old 11-23-14, 07:00 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I wonder how many vegans live and ride their bikes in very cold climate ??... During some winters when the polar vortex hits us I ride in temps as low as minus -27 Celsius...My body craves animal products which are high in saturated fat , fat is the only food which seems to give me energy to function in cold climate and keep my core/body temperature warm.
Sorry vegans but vegetable oil just doesn't have the same effect as butter, cream, dairy, fatty fish and meat. I bet most vegans have sedentary jobs and ride their bikes on rollers inside their warm living rooms during winter.
You should do what nature says, build fat reserves in the warmer months, use them hibernating in the cold. That's why we have a low-energy fat-burning system called ketosis. For those in the warmer latitudes enjoy your activity and your carbs
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Old 11-23-14, 07:16 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I wonder how many vegans live and ride their bikes in very cold climate ??... During some winters when the polar vortex hits us I ride in temps as low as minus -27 Celsius...My body craves animal products which are high in saturated fat , fat is the only food which seems to give me energy to function in cold climate and keep my core/body temperature warm.
Sorry vegans but vegetable oil just doesn't have the same effect as butter, cream, dairy, fatty fish and meat. I bet most vegans have sedentary jobs and ride their bikes on rollers inside their warm living rooms during winter.
You have an active imagination.

I did a stint as a bike courier in winter.in Calgary - that count? I also know vegan tradespeople who work outside all winter.

Where do.you come up with this stuff?
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Old 11-23-14, 07:34 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
You have an active imagination.

Where do.you come up with this stuff?
It's not imagination. I just practice what works best for me.
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Old 11-23-14, 08:47 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by bikeguyinvenice View Post
The future Mrs. Bikeguyinvenice is a vegetarian and challenged me to go a week without meat, that was 7 days ago. I'm not dead yet so I am thinking about continuing with the challenge. Last nights dinner was veggie stir fry with tofu. Tasted just fine to me and it had protein which is the one thing I was a little concerned about. I don't want to start losing muscle mass from lack of protein. But on the other hand I guess I could do the protein shake thing and hit the gym more often if I feel I am losing muscle. I know that vegetarians are over all healthier than their omnivore counterparts. So who is a vegetarian, how long have you been a vegetarian, why did you make the switch and hows is your health?
I was eating like a vegan, my body had a hard time getting enough B12, I had some nerve damage cause of it. B12 supplements were not enough, or my body had a hard time absorbing b12 in supplement form.

Anyway so I now eat a low fat diet, with some fish, some white meat turkey and fat free cheese. I have lost 27 pounds and am off diabeties medicine.

If you are talking just in terms of health, I think eating low fat with lots of fruits and veges is more important than just eating vegetarian. Eating vegetarian but with cheese, milk and eggs can mean too much fat in your diet. If you are eating vegan cause you dont believe in using animals, I can see it but you must make sure you get enough B12 and you still should watch the fat.
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Old 11-23-14, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I wonder how many vegans live and ride their bikes in very cold climate ??... During some winters when the polar vortex hits us I ride in temps as low as minus -27 Celsius...My body craves animal products which are high in saturated fat , fat is the only food which seems to give me energy to function in cold climate and keep my core/body temperature warm.
Sorry vegans but vegetable oil just doesn't have the same effect as butter, cream, dairy, fatty fish and meat. I bet most vegans have sedentary jobs and ride their bikes on rollers inside their warm living rooms during winter.
I'm skeptical that this was due to anything but calorie balance. Meat calories are delicious and calorie-dense, but they're not magical.
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Old 11-24-14, 03:12 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by bikeguyinvenice View Post
The future Mrs. Bikeguyinvenice is a vegetarian and challenged me to go a week without meat, that was 7 days ago. I'm not dead yet so I am thinking about continuing with the challenge. Last nights dinner was veggie stir fry with tofu. Tasted just fine to me and it had protein which is the one thing I was a little concerned about. I don't want to start losing muscle mass from lack of protein. But on the other hand I guess I could do the protein shake thing and hit the gym more often if I feel I am losing muscle. I know that vegetarians are over all healthier than their omnivore counterparts. So who is a vegetarian, how long have you been a vegetarian, why did you make the switch and hows is your health?
Don't worry about getting too little protein.
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Old 11-24-14, 04:41 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
I'm skeptical that this was due to anything but calorie balance. Meat calories are delicious and calorie-dense, but they're not magical.
I'm highly skeptical of folks who claim their bodies crave saturated fats. It's psychological.
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Old 11-24-14, 06:30 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
It's not imagination. I just practice what works best for me.
If you make extraordinary claims, you need extraordinary evidence to back it up. You now seem to be backing away from the extravagant claims you were making 4 posts higher on the page:

Sorry vegans but vegetable oil just doesn't have the same effect as butter, cream, dairy, fatty fish and meat. I bet most vegans have sedentary jobs and ride their bikes on rollers inside their warm living rooms during winter.
If we cut through the unsupported assumptions and bro-science, there is not much there in the above two sentences. I don't really care what you eat, that is your business, but you are making lots of strong, outlandish claims with "because I said so" as the supporting logic and evidence.
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Old 11-24-14, 06:33 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
I'm highly skeptical of folks who claim their bodies crave saturated fats. It's psychological.
This is a fascinating topic, to me, cravings. Lots of interesting research in the area. In particular,

Do Gut Bacteria Rule Our Minds? | ucsf.edu

“Bacteria within the gut are manipulative,” said Carlo Maley, PhD, director of the UCSF Center for Evolution and Cancer and corresponding author on the paper. “There is a diversity of interests represented in the microbiome, some aligned with our own dietary goals, and others not.”
“Microbes have the capacity to manipulate behavior and mood through altering the neural signals in the vagus nerve, changing taste receptors, producing toxins to make us feel bad, and releasing chemical rewards to make us feel good,” said Aktipis, who is currently in the Arizona State University Department of Psychology.

In mice, certain strains of bacteria increase anxious behavior. In humans, one clinical trial found that drinking a probiotic containing Lactobacillus casei improved mood in those who were feeling the lowest.
And to bring it back to vegetarianism:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture12820.html

Here we show that the short-term consumption of diets composed entirely of animal or plant products alters microbial community structure and overwhelms inter-individual differences in microbial gene expression. The animal-based diet increased the abundance of bile-tolerant microorganisms (Alistipes, Bilophila and Bacteroides) and decreased the levels of Firmicutes that metabolize dietary plant polysaccharides (Roseburia, Eubacterium rectale and Ruminococcus bromii). Microbial activity mirrored differences between herbivorous and carnivorous mammals[SUP]2[/SUP], reflecting trade-offs between carbohydrate and protein fermentation. Foodborne microbes from both diets transiently colonized the gut, including bacteria, fungi and even viruses. Finally, increases in the abundance and activity of Bilophila wadsworthia on the animal-based diet support a link between dietary fat, bile acids and the outgrowth of microorganisms capable of triggering inflammatory bowel disease[SUP]6[/SUP]
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Old 11-24-14, 06:53 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
People in western countries adopting eastern cultural and dietary practises and then marketing and selling it as a "green healthy way to live", to me that's a "fad".



Yes many are vegans or vegetarians because of religious traditions. Others are vegans not for health reasons but simply because they are too poor to afford animal products.



No I don't think it would benefit the world...How has vegetarianism benefited India and it's people ??. They have lower life expectancy then people in meat eating western countries.
I have relatives in California who are Adventists. They have benefited greatly from their vegetarian diet.

Adventist Mortality Study

The first major study of Adventists begun in 1960, has become known as the Adventist Mortality Study. Consisting of 22,940 California Adventists, it entailed an intensive 5-year follow-up and a more informal 25-year follow-up.
"...[The] Adventist Mortality Study (1960–1965) did indicate that Adventist men lived 6.2 years longer than non-Adventist men in the concurrentAmerican Cancer Society Study and Adventist women had a 3.7-year advantage over their counterparts. These statistics were based on life table analyses."[SUP][3][/SUP]
Specifically, comparing death rates of Adventist compared to other Californians:[SUP][4][/SUP]
  • Death rates from all cancers was 60% lower for Adventist men and 76% lower for Adventist women
  • Lung cancer 21% lower
  • Colorectal cancer 62% lower
  • Breast cancer 85% lower
  • Coronary heart disease 66% lower for Adventist men, 98% lower for Adventist women
Adventist Health Study 1 (AHS-1)

An additional study (1974–1988) involved approximately 34,000 Californian Adventists over 25 years of age. Unlike the mortality study, the purpose was to find out which components of the Adventist lifestyle give protection against disease.
The data from the study have been studied for more than a decade and the findings are numerous – linking diet to cancer[SUP][5][/SUP] and coronary heart disease.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP]
Specifically[SUP][4][/SUP]
  • On average Adventist men live 7.3 years longer and Adventist women live 4.4 years longer than other Californians.
  • Five simple health behaviors promoted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church for more than 100 years (not smoking, eating a plant based diet, eating nuts several times per week, regular exercise and maintaining normal body weight) increase life span up to 10 years.
Adventist Health Studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-24-14, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by howeeee View Post
I was eating like a vegan, my body had a hard time getting enough B12, I had some nerve damage cause of it. B12 supplements were not enough, or my body had a hard time absorbing b12 in supplement form.

Anyway so I now eat a low fat diet, with some fish, some white meat turkey and fat free cheese. I have lost 27 pounds and am off diabeties medicine.

If you are talking just in terms of health, I think eating low fat with lots of fruits and veges is more important than just eating vegetarian. Eating vegetarian but with cheese, milk and eggs can mean too much fat in your diet. If you are eating vegan cause you dont believe in using animals, I can see it but you must make sure you get enough B12 and you still should watch the fat.
Interesting post. How do you know a lack of B12 is what caused your nerve damage? I'm not asking because I don't believe what you wrote, I'm curious about how that type of problem is figured out and diagnosed, etc. Also, what does your carbohydrate intake look like (in terms of amount and source, etc.)? I'm trying to find a balance in regard to mine.
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Old 11-24-14, 09:57 AM
  #95  
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Well I am not devoiding myself of animal products, the Mrs eats eggs and dairy, so that's what I have been eating for 4 weeks now, I've lost about 8 lbs now.I feel pretty good. I've been increasing the length of my rides. I have not noticed any difference in how strong I feel. I'm not going to change the way I've been eating it seems to be working for me so far.
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Old 11-24-14, 10:11 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by 1748357 View Post
Interesting post. How do you know a lack of B12 is what caused your nerve damage? I'm not asking because I don't believe what you wrote, I'm curious about how that type of problem is figured out and diagnosed, etc. Also, what does your carbohydrate intake look like (in terms of amount and source, etc.)? I'm trying to find a balance in regard to mine.
So I was eating vegan for a year when I started getting pain around my abdomen. Took a while but was diagnosed as nerve damage from a nuerologist. I am blaming on it a lack of B12 from the research I did myself. The pain was very great and was spreading when I stopped the vegan diet. Then the pain wained and stopped spreading. So now I eat a mostly vegetarian diet but throw in Fat Free cheese, eggs once in awhile, tuna and salmon. I now eat a low fat diet and my carb intake is probably high. Since i lost 27 pounds and am eating low fat I was able to stop the diabeties medicine even though I eat a lot of carbs.
The reason I am probably controlling the diabeties so well now is probably cause I only weigh 145 instead of the 172 I was at. I am very skeptical of a high fat low carb diet. A Pritikin type diet is probably much better.

I eat whole wheat low calorie bread, potato and rice in small portions.
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Old 11-24-14, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I wonder how many vegans live and ride their bikes in very cold climate ??... During some winters when the polar vortex hits us I ride in temps as low as minus -27 Celsius...My body craves animal products which are high in saturated fat , fat is the only food which seems to give me energy to function in cold climate and keep my core/body temperature warm.
Sorry vegans but vegetable oil just doesn't have the same effect as butter, cream, dairy, fatty fish and meat. I bet most vegans have sedentary jobs and ride their bikes on rollers inside their warm living rooms during winter.
Duuude! where do you get this stuff?

First of all, you are in Toronto, which at the same latitude as friggin Monaco. Toronto isn't particularly cold and it wasn't particularly cold even with the whole polar vortex thing. hence you don't really have bragging rights or even experience about surviving in the cold. I bet you've never even spent a night in -27C.

Secondly, I live in the arctic circle. This town I live in has a pretty healthy hipster/alternative/pride/anything youthful you can think of scene and as a result we have a lot of vegetarians. They do just fine. In temps of -40C. With wind chill.

And as this is a student town nearly no one has a car so people walk or cycle to places. They do just fine without massive amounts of saturated fats or meat products.

Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
You should do what nature says, build fat reserves in the warmer months, use them hibernating in the cold. That's why we have a low-energy fat-burning system called ketosis. For those in the warmer latitudes enjoy your activity and your carbs
But you live in a warm latitude? Are you enjoying carbs or what? I don't get it.
I know I am. Carbs for the win!
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Old 11-24-14, 12:31 PM
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IMO, Brendan Brazier has a couple of interesting and informative books as far as ultra endurance and vegan diet....

Brendan Brazier, vegan triathlete | Great Vegan Athletes
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Old 11-24-14, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
I'm highly skeptical of folks who claim their bodies crave saturated fats. It's psychological.
If it is psychological then so be it. I definetly feel better and more satisfied when I eat a red meat burger then tofu burger.
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Old 11-24-14, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
I bet you've never even spent a night in -27C.
I hope you realize that you just lost the bet.

Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Secondly, I live in the arctic circle. This town I live in has a pretty healthy hipster/alternative/pride/anything youthful you can think of scene and as a result we have a lot of vegetarians. They do just fine. In temps of -40C. With wind chill.
You live in an arctic circle of northern europe and you're getting your nutrition advice from some alternative lifestyle hipsters and college students ??...Maybe it's time you visit some reindeer herders and have a chat with them about proper nutrition for cold arctic climate.
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