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Zone 2 LSD: Friel or Coggan?

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Zone 2 LSD: Friel or Coggan?

Old 12-10-14, 02:02 PM
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biciklanto
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Zone 2 LSD: Friel or Coggan?

I'm utterly befuddled when it comes to heart rate training.

First, lactate threshold as a question: on a recent benchmark hill-climb ride, I averaged 193 BPM for a ten-minute segment, 189 BPM for a 20-minute segment, and 186 BPM for a 34-minute segment that included some downhill. I wasn't intentionally going all out, but I was obviously pretty close.

Were I to select 186 BPM as my lactate threshold, here are my heart rate zones, from Joe Friel and Andrew Coggan:
Code:
Zone         Friel         Coggan
1            122-155          -126
2            156-167       127-154
3            168-174       155-175
4            175-186       177-195
5a           187-190       196-
5b           191-197
5c           198-
Both Friel and Coggan speak about benefits to Zone 2, and I have a good amount of time this winter to put in a good amount of base, but here's the problem: the Friel heart rate zones are almost perfectly a step higher than the Coggan zones for 1, 2, and 3. So which Zone 2 do I train in if I'm wanting Long Steady Distance? Or am I missing something entirely?

This will be mixed in with other types of rides with other purposes (various intervals &e.), but I'm certainly curious to know what I should do if I'm going out for three or five hours. Thoughts?

Last edited by biciklanto; 12-10-14 at 02:05 PM. Reason: I can English!
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Old 12-10-14, 05:34 PM
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Coggan, IMO. When I first started training seriously, I went with Friel, but I overtrained fairly quickly while following his workout plan. I now use .82*LT for top of z2. That seems about right IME. Coggan's z1 top OTOH seems too low to me. I wouldn't get out of my driveway. I use .68*LT. For top of z3, I use .93*LT, about the same as Coggan.

Of course all this is somewhat arbitrary, as it depends on what you do with those zones vis a vis your workouts and their scheduling and periodization, and also your personal physiology and ability to recover.
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Old 12-11-14, 11:55 AM
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I would argue that it depends on the training you will do. Neither Coggan nor Friel advocates solely riding Z2. Their programs are different. If you follow a Friel-based program, follow Friel zones, and if you use a Coggan-based training plan, use Coggan zones. You will probably notice if you actually compare the training plans and the amount of time you should spend a certain HR's you might not notice that many differences.

Personally I find Friel to have to many zones to be practical. But Coggan OTOH differentiates his zones in his training workouts (e.g. Sweetspot, or sub-treshold zone) etc. I would advice to also use RPE to see if you experience the zones the way you "should" and adjust the zones accordingly. If, like CFB in the post above, you find that the HR in Z1 and 2 do nothing for you you should adjust them.

There is no one-size-fits-all and it is all personal in my opinion, and you use these "frameworks" to structure your personal trianing, but it should be adapted to your specific situation.
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Old 12-13-14, 01:37 PM
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Friel's HR zones are kinda whacked.

At 75% of FTP (Friel's top of Z2) I'm closer to the bottom of (Friel's) Z2 on HR.

Friel makes a lot more sense on a power basis than a HR basis.
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Old 12-13-14, 07:30 PM
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Be sure to also read this thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/training-n...hile-back.html

You really only need 3 zones . . .
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Old 12-13-14, 08:59 PM
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I'd bet that 186 is a fair bit higher than your true LTHR based on the information you gave.
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Old 12-17-14, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlyAlfaRomeo View Post
I'd bet that 186 is a fair bit higher than your true LTHR based on the information you gave.
@CharlyAlfaRomeo, could you clarify? Friel says that the last 20 minutes of a 30-minute TT is an approximation of LTHR, which corresponds to my 20-minute segment pretty closely.

I'm always eager for me information, however, so let me know what I may be missing!


Joe Friel - Determining your LTHR
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Old 12-18-14, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by biciklanto View Post
@CharlyAlfaRomeo, could you clarify? Friel says that the last 20 minutes of a 30-minute TT is an approximation of LTHR, which corresponds to my 20-minute segment pretty closely.

I'm always eager for me information, however, so let me know what I may be missing!


Joe Friel - Determining your LTHR
Because you have to follow the protocol properly to get good data. No where do you state that you did a 30 minute all out effort and took the average HR for the last 20 minutes of said effort.

For all we know your LTHR could actually be a bit higher but you have to do the test as prescribed to get the most accurate information.

Take a few days off, short recovery rides at most then pick a day to do the test. Do a proper warmup, then the test and then cool down.

Random hill climbs in the middle of rides are not accurate indicators of fitness.
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Old 12-18-14, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlyAlfaRomeo View Post
Because you have to follow the protocol properly to get good data. No where do you state that you did a 30 minute all out effort and took the average HR for the last 20 minutes of said effort.

For all we know your LTHR could actually be a bit higher but you have to do the test as prescribed to get the most accurate information.

Take a few days off, short recovery rides at most then pick a day to do the test. Do a proper warmup, then the test and then cool down.

Random hill climbs in the middle of rides are not accurate indicators of fitness.
I agree with all of that — but all of that directly contradicts your first message, doesn't it? Your first message was that 186 is higher than my LTHR, but me NOT having gone all-out but otherwise having done 30 minutes seems to indicate that, if anything, my true LTHR would be higher than 186. So which do you mean?
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Old 12-18-14, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by biciklanto View Post
I agree with all of that — but all of that directly contradicts your first message, doesn't it? Your first message was that 186 is higher than my LTHR, but me NOT having gone all-out but otherwise having done 30 minutes seems to indicate that, if anything, my true LTHR would be higher than 186. So which do you mean?
It could be either but I would suspect it's lower.

Google cardiac drift, the longer you have been exerting yourself the higher your HR will be for a given effort.
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