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Lactate Level Determination

Old 12-23-14, 06:58 AM
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Ago Velox
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Lactate Level Determination

All,

Attached are 8 pictures showing lactate curves (lactate vs HR) I found in a document that dug right into LT training, etc.

These pictures show real data from real athletes. Each curve tells a unique and interesting story about the particular level of fitness for that athlete.

For each curve, I want to know the single value of Lactate is (by referencing the vertical and horizontal axes) which represents the Lactose Inflection Point (or LT). The referring document does not state them.

interested to read your opinion to learn what you think each Lactate value is for the LIP or LT for each curve in each Figure.

Just helps me better understand how to interpret this LT stuff better in my own mind...


AGO Velox
Attached Images
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FIGURE 5.jpg (21.4 KB, 23 views)
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FIGURE 6.jpg (22.5 KB, 18 views)
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FIGURE 7.jpg (23.1 KB, 15 views)
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FIGURE 8.jpg (20.2 KB, 16 views)
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FIGURE 10.jpg (21.9 KB, 14 views)
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fIGURE 2.jpg (22.9 KB, 13 views)
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FIGURE 4.jpg (22.4 KB, 14 views)
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Figure1.jpg (19.3 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by Ago Velox; 12-23-14 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 12-23-14, 05:30 PM
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There is more than one technical definition of LT. However, it's usual to specify lactate accumulation of 4 mmol/liter.
What is Lactate and Lactate Threshold | TrainingPeaks
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Old 12-23-14, 05:46 PM
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Thanks Carbonfiberboy.

By looking at those charts, what point (on the vertical axis) do you think LT has occurred - that's all i ask?


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Old 12-23-14, 06:33 PM
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What's missing on those charts is time.

If you want one number, it's 4 mmol.

You'll get a better curve for a slowly increasing effort. Figure 4 is the textbook version. Real life does it's own thing.
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Old 12-23-14, 08:15 PM
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Thanks 'No Sweat'.

I understand 4 mmol is a text book level.

On Figure 4 would say that the corresponding blood level is around 2.6 for LT?

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Old 12-23-14, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ago Velox View Post
Thanks 'No Sweat'.

I understand 4 mmol is a text book level.

On Figure 4 would say that the corresponding blood level is around 2.6 for LT?

Ago
No, I don't think so. Again, what's missing is time. I'm kind of a rookie at this stuff, but I think it's fairly typical for lactate to increase steady state as effort increases below LT. At LT, you reach the point of lactate production that your body is just capable of clearing. Above this point, lactate accumulation is continuous, it's inherently non-steady state and inherently time limited. Lactate production going as roughly the fourth power of the power you make, it's a pretty steep curve :-).

I think 2.6 mmol is still steady state, in general. But I just know what I read.
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Old 12-23-14, 10:12 PM
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Thanks No Sweat!

This link / paper below talks about LT being the point at the work rate which blood lactate level exponentially increases
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769631/


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Old 12-26-14, 08:23 PM
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[TABLE="width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Workload[/TD]
[TD]Junior Cyclist[/TD]
[TD]Top Amateurs[/TD]
[TD]Avg. Pro-Tour[/TD]
[TD]World Class[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]w/kg[/TD]
[TD]Blood La (mmol/L)[/TD]
[TD]Blood La (mmol/L)[/TD]
[TD]Blood La (mmol/L)[/TD]
[TD]Blood La (mmol/L)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]3.5[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
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[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2.3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.96[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD]4.5[/TD]
[TD]6.6[/TD]
[TD]3.5[/TD]
[TD]3.2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
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[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]7.6[/TD]
[TD]5.8[/TD]
[TD]3.1[/TD]
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[TD]5.5[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]9.2[/TD]
[TD]8.2[/TD]
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[TD]6[/TD]
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[TD]8.9

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The lab I got tested at is run by this person. The way it was explained to me was that the junior cyclist at 5w/kg is cooked at 10mmol/l lactate. If you go across the chart and look at the pro, that guy is just cruising along at ZONE 2, and can do that all day long. The way to train the lactate response is to ride at zone two, and shift the response lower and lower, so that after training and adapting, your w/kg has gone up significantly, while your lactate does not. Look up the author and he has some videos discussing this.
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Old 12-26-14, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by no sweat View Post
If you want one number, it's 4 mmol.
The 4 mM/L value is another one of those conventions used in physiology. It's quasi-arbitrary at best. In the sports performance center I was in nearly two decades ago, the national-class runners we tested showed estimated LT values of 3.2 to 3.6 mM/L. I say "estimated" because determination of a precise LT is rather difficult. I use the term "foyer" rather than "threshold." You know when you're in it, but you can't tell exactly where you crossed into it. In recent years, I've heard tell of some of the top Kenyan marathoners reaching the LT at 2.5 to 2.8 mM/L.

If you want a better metric to go by, use the respiratory compensation point. This is much easier to nail down by use of gas exchange ratios and the criterion for determining it is more precise. You can also sense when you've exceeded it - hyperventilation ensues. It's pretty easy to feel that, but you can't feel when blood lactate exceeds some rather nebulous value.

no sweat, is there really a Galt's Gulch in NH now? I'll assume it won't have that invisibility screen any time soon! Would this Galt's Gulch use its own hard commodity money that had stand-alone value in barter? Bitcoin?
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Old 12-27-14, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Zuzus pedals View Post
no sweat, is there really a Galt's Gulch in NH now?
My little joke.
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Old 12-28-14, 07:31 PM
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My little joke.
Darn. As the only Misesian that I know of in the hippie town of Ithaca, NY, I'm interested in any and all anti-big-government enterprises in the spirit of the fictional John Galt.
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Old 03-26-15, 10:37 AM
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Didn't want to start a whole new thread on this zombie horse of a topic, so deal with it.

What/ why 4mmol? Is that the average number the average rider hits at LT?

Also, once you've raised your LT, does it become harder to get into LT in order to raise it further?
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Old 03-26-15, 10:43 AM
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Also, RPE of LT is that your legs are on fire, right? When that happens you are solidly over LT?
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Old 03-26-15, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by intransit1217 View Post
Didn't want to start a whole new thread on this zombie horse of a topic, so deal with it.

What/ why 4mmol? Is that the average number the average rider hits at LT?

Also, once you've raised your LT, does it become harder to get into LT in order to raise it further?
4 mmol/L comes from an old study. 4 mmol/L was labeled as "onset of blood lactate accumulation" (OBLA) because past that point, in that study, the lactate accumulated much more quickly.

Here's a decent, brief discussion of different terms. Understanding ?Threshold?
Also some good responses here. Lactate Threshold / FTP, Are they the same (near enough): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums
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Old 03-26-15, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tadawdy View Post
4 mmol/L comes from an old study. 4 mmol/L was labeled as "onset of blood lactate accumulation" (OBLA) because past that point, in that study, the lactate accumulated much more quickly.

Here's a decent, brief discussion of different terms. Understanding ?Threshold?
Also some good responses here. Lactate Threshold / FTP, Are they the same (near enough): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums
thank you very much tadawdy. I love the sink analogy. But what are the bad things? Another link is fine.
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