Arcanum

Not really. You can kinda-sorta get an idea by looking at the picture galleries and the weight rankings, but that's about it. I wish they had specified the bike used by each person.

chucky

Here's a comment Henry (the owner of mydutchbike) posted under Josh's guestpost (on Henry's blog):
While I haven't ridden an Xtracycle, despite all the eloquent arguments, pictures, and pocketbook voting I'm still not convinced that there's anything I could carry with a Longtail that I couldn't carry with a non-"cargo bike"...especially if that noncargo bike is my recumbent (the fastest, most tour worthy, and best load carrier in my stable):

or one of my folding bikes:


As you might guess from my choice of bicycles, I generally don't think most people make the best choices when voting with their pocketbooks for regular bikes and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were making the wrong choices again regarding their cargo bikes. A longtail might be able to carry a lot of well packaged weight (ie 50 lb sacks of rice)...but I think the reality is that most heavy well packaged items would be better carried in multiple trips (in other words, really big loads are better split and loads which can't be split aren't very amenable to longtails). Besides, I'm really intrigued by the idea of having passenger assist and I don't see any way to implement it with a longtail.

Where the popularity of longtails does weigh in for me is when considering Long vs Short Johns. If the advantage longtails have in frame weight and stiffness is really that important/useful than Short Johns should give the best of both worlds. Sure Longtails (to be consistent with the cargo bike hierarchy they should really be called "Shorttails") are cheaper, but if you still need to buy or rent a car for certain occasions (out of town friends visiting with a baby?) then how much are you really saving? $600 won't buy you too many car rentals.

xoalaska

To clarify, the original post was authored by Josh. It was his opinion longtails don't measure up. Henry is Henry. He's a transplanted New Yorker who has designed bikes to function well in his adopted country.

"As you might guess from my choice of bicycles, I generally don't think most people make the best choices when voting with their pocketbooks for regular bikes."

Their money, their choice.

Your pictures show eccentric bikes carrying things. Most people don't want to build their own.

BTW you are carrying a fraction of what I've carried on my Xtra, not that this is a pissing match but you really don't know what one can do until you try it.

Arcanum

This is simply a case of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should or would want to" combined with not really appreciating what a well-designed longtail is capable of. Sure, maybe you are capable of carrying another person sidesaddle on a regular bike and dragging rolling luggage rattling along behind you, but that doesn't mean it's safe or enjoyable. On a longtail it can very reasonably be both.

Let me know how your recumbent (or, hell, most real cargo bikes) handles a washer and dryer.


Washer Dryer by stoutag, on Flickr


Washer Dryer 2 by stoutag, on Flickr

From this blog.

You can convert unpackaged weight into packaged weight with the addition of some plastic or wooden bins on the sides of the longtail. It's not hard. And that's sort of the point of the design: Carry more stuff more easily. They're intended to be versatile haulers of what people most frequently carry, that ride "like a bike".

Sure, single extremely large and heavy items don't work, but show me a bike they do work on. You mentioned a refrigerator earlier; I honestly wonder how many bikes (not trailers) could safely carry a full-sized refrigerator. Weight-wise, there are a number of bikes that can do it, but it looks to me like they'd all have stability (and possibly vision) problems due to the size, weight, and height.

I don't see what's so hard? It basically ends up being an extra-long tandem design with the rack and lower platforms either at the end or between the two riders.

Incorrect. The additional length of a longtail is an advantage. Simply by being longer with the cargo carrier behind the rider it can safely be used for larger, more unwieldy packages than a short john can. There are apparently even longtails that amount to long johns with the cargo carrier on the rear instead of the front: https://velo-city.org/cargo-cycles/index.html#longtail

In case it's not clear, I'm not in any way saying longtails are the best for all possible applications. Different types of bikes are better and worse at different things. I'm saying that the out-of-hand dismissal of the design is stupid and frankly ignorant.

xoalaska

@Chucky--look at this page: https://www.sfbike.org/main/

I count at least 3 Xtracycles set up to carry kids. Tell me you know better than these parents.

chucky

None of my bikes are self-built (I even saw one in a local shop). They're no more exotic than an Xtracycle, except they have advantages other than just load carrying ability.

The purpose of those pictures wasn't to show the limits of how much I've carried. It was merely to illustrate the gist of it so you can use your imagination to picture how I've carried larger loads and why I don't think an Xtracycle would do much to expand my personal load carrying ability (over and above the bicycles I already own).

You're missing the point. Obviously if one can nicely package something then they will do so...even with a car no one is going to fill their trunk with loose concrete mix (they'll package it). The question is what to do with items which can't be packaged.

For example, what would you have done if you only needed to transport the dryer (without the washer). I even wonder, did you even really need to transport both or did you have to take both because one would have been too unbalanced?

...with a longtail. I don't see any reason why one couldn't lay it out width-wise (top facing left, bottom facing right) on a CETMA: height not a problem, size not a problem, and (given the low COG) weight probably not a problem either.

What I don't think would be safe is a trailer (without brakes and without any way to control the load other than make it go fast).

The hard part is building the frame and, especially, testing the geometry to see that it works. Front loaders, on the other hand, are already available from various builders which have tested the geometry for both cargo carrying AND tandem riding (and kits are available to do the conversion).

There is no additional length. That's the point: Long tails aren't any longer than short johns and, as a result, they both weigh approximately the same with approximately the same load capacity. The long long tails are more like the long johns (in weight and capacity).

So in terms of rear vs front loaders we have:
long tails vs short johns
long long tails vs long johns

Is it easier to carry more unwieldy loads in the rear? Based on the history of cargo designs, I doubt it.

chucky

I don't know better, but I'm not the only one considering or using bikes to haul cargo and passengers, am I?

xoalaska

What are you talking about? Srsly, don't answer that.

xoalaska

I imagine a photo of you carrying something imaginary on an imaginary bicycle.

Arcanum

Most things can be packaged/repackaged in a sane way, which means a longtail can cover most needs.

Those aren't my pictures, FYI. Frankly, I haven't tried carrying something that unwieldy myself. Then again, you'd have trouble carrying a dryer in a car or on many long johns as well simply due to the size. If it won't fit in the car or on the platform of the particular long john you have (assuming the john doesn't have a permanently-attached bucket), you're just as stuck if not moreso than with a longtail.

Same problem, if not worse, as with the dryer: If the box is too wide for the specific long john you have, you're stuck.

Funnily enough, I saw pictures earlier of someone replacing their fridge with a large trailer. You need good brakes, but it looked perfectly reasonable otherwise.

As far as I can tell, this is simply not true. In so far as I've been able to find wheelbase information about short johns (a couple Torker bikes and the Human Powered Machines Express), their wheelbases run in the area of 1000-1100mm or around 40"-43". The wheelbases of typical longtails such as the Mundo and Big Dummy are more like 1400-1500mm or 55"-59". Even the Kona Ute, a definitely light-duty longtail, has a wheelbase that is almost 1300mm (50") long.

A short wheelbase longtail has a wheelbase some 6+" longer than a longish wheelbase short john, and a longer (but still fairly typical) longtail's wheelbase is some 16" longer. And, because of the geometry and leverage provided by the longer wheelbase, you can make the rear carrier yet longer still.

So, yes, there is in fact a significant difference in length between a short john and a longtail.

Note that I have not mentioned Xtracycles. There is a reason for this: Xtracycles are conversion kits. That necessitates a certain amount of compromise independent of the design of the carrier itself. In my opinion, that places Xtracycles in a category separate from true cargo cycles. They're still useful, it just doesn't make sense to compare them directly to purpose-built cargo cycles. Conversions of any kind are rarely as effective in their domain as purpose-built solutions.

This is incorrect. Longtails and short johns are not directly comparable, and I'm not really sure what you mean by "long long tails".

I wasn't aware that the utility of a cargo cycle was defined entirely by it's ability to carry "unwieldy loads". And really, if we just went by a history of "has this been done before", we'd all still be banging rocks together in caves.

chucky

I'm only going to say this once: Do not address me if you don't want a response. I'm here to have interactive conversations, not to be your punching bag, and if you do it again I'm putting you on ignore.

I'm sorry you have such a poor imagination. I guess you're only choice is to follow me around every day and watch me carrying all the things that I carry. Of course, then you won't have time to carrying your own stuff or do anything at all, but at least you'll "know" what I'm capable of carrying (although not necessarily what I could carry in the future...that leap requires some imagination).

Once again you're missing the point. Just because you can do something that doesn't necessarily mean you should. Take the washer and dryer example, sure they can be paired of up in a "package" with one on each side, but the better (and safer) solution is probably to take one at a time in two trips.

Wouldn't be hard to bolt on a wood palate to raise the load above wheel height on a long john. Then you'd have nearly unlimited space with a COG lower than the deck of a longtail AND you'd be able to keep an eye on how your load is responding to your steering/riding motions (whether/how it's shifting, etc...feedback can turn an unstable system into a stable one).

OR you could use a short john which is unlimited in two dimensions...that should be enough to carry anything.

OR there's also the Organic Engines Long Juan which uses a customizable beam made of "80/20 Industrial Erector Set". It's speced to take one up to 8 feet...so if you need a longer beam then just swap one in the night before.

I've seen it too and it was enough to make me decide I should shop for a real cargo bike. Fortunately nobody was hurt, but it definitely didn't appear to be a safe thing to do, due to the lack of control (that trailer could have easily jackknifed with disasterous consequences).

Those aren't "short johns". Those are just regular bikes with heavy duty built in racks. THEN if the wheelbase is stretched there are two ways to go:
Stretch the rear 6-16": this is your typical long tail
Stretch the front 6-16": this is the Bilenky, the DWI Borracho, the Kemper Filibus, that Josh praises in the article (and what I'm referring to as "short johns")

Then there are long johns which have 70"+ wheelbases and the equivalent rear loaders such as the Burrows 8-Freight (which is what I meant by "long long tail"):


So, all in all, there are 5 types:
A. regular wheelbase front + rear loader.
B. 50-60" wheelbase front loader
C. 70-80" wheelbase front loader
D. 50-60" wheelbase rear loader
E. 70-80" wheelbase rear loader

A. Is just a regular bike or, if it has a small front wheel and a frame rack, a "cycletruck" or "low gravity bike"
After that there's a choice of wheel base (short vs long) and a choice of load location (front vs rear).
B. short front- a "short john"
C. long front- a "long john"
D. short rear- a "long tail", but that's a bit of a misnomer since it's shorter than the ~75" wheelbase bikes
D. long rear- a "long long tail", but should probably just be called "long tail"

This comparison is very useful because bikes with approximately the same wheelbase seem to be approximately the same weight because the way the wheels support the load determine how strong the frame needs to be; They also seem to have similar handling (with shorter wheelbases handling better).

All in all the 50-60" wheelbase ("short john" and "long tail") bikes seem to get the most praise for service on the North American continent. What seems to be in dispute is whether it's better to hold the cargo in the front vs the rear (and whether a more complex steering arrangement is worth the extra cost).

BTW, in a large size frame my recumbent also has almost a 50" wheelbase...a bike which has been used to set RAAM records. So (just thinking out loud for myself) if my go fast bike is almost like a light duty long tail (Kona UTE), then a much slower "full duty" long tail probably wouldn't do much to round out my stable. (in fact my bike is probably much more useful than a 50" long tail because with my bike there's no load interference until I get to the front wheel).

xoalaska

Chucky,

In another thread you boasted about being stronger and smarter than another poster. That's amazing you can tell you're stronger from the internet. Smarter you've proven you aren't.

It seems your goal is to talk bikes in theory, slag on longtails and show pictures of bikes carrying, well, pretty much nothing. In an earlier post you criticize longtails for their inability to secure loads yet I see a sleeping bag tied with string to your recumbent and a plastic garbage sack hanging from a child's bike hung in such a way as to interfere with pedaling.

The pictures you posted are suppose to bolster your argument, not be laughable.

How can I seriously discuss anything with you given your inflated sense of both yourself and your bikes? Follow you around to watch you carry single garbage bags?

Page me when you have something relevant to say or show me.

chucky

As I said before, the pictures I posted were to illustrate the general methods I use to carry things on my bikes and provide a sense of the scale and clearances for larger loads (not to bolster any argument, but if you want to know the original reason I took the photos, just ask). If that's not good enough for you then you can spend your hard earned money buying these bicycles, loading them up, and taking your own pictures because I have far more important things to do than spend my days taking pictures to impress insignificant twerps on the internet. You will not be paged and there will be no red carpet.

My goal is to catalog and understand the experiences that others have shared so I can better round out my stable of bicycles and help others do the same. Let me be the first to tell you that if you don't like that then you're welcome to read and post elsewhere because your demands and personal diatribes have no relevance for this conversation.

xoalaska

"Insignificant twerp." There you go being all Lord of the Internet again. Got under someone's strong, intelligent skin, did I?

Scale and clearances? There are no clearances! The scale is that of a child's bike!

Round out your stable? You are talking about $4-8k cargo bikes, slagging on longtails, and producing no evidence your bikes are *better*.

Read and post elsewhere? Last I checked this is an open forum on the internet. This isn't your thread and your "ideas" don't exist in a vacuum. If you say something patently wrong I'm entitled to take you to task for it.

chucky

How would you know if I'm wrong? Because I have more important things to do than present you a 20 page thesis proving that my bicycles can carry almost as much cargo as a long tail? What would be in that for me? I already know what I can carry with my bicycles and what I'd like to be able to better carry.

If you want the evidence then you can go get it because I couldn't care less what you think. In fact, given how you're treating me I think I'd prefer if you remained ignorant and miserable forever. But since I like to throw a dog a bone I'll tell you you're wrong about clearances, wrong about me owning child's bikes, and wrong about the price of cargo bikes.

And, no, you're not getting under my skin. Although it's nice you're admitting that's what you're trying to do, troll.

xoalaska

You keep saying you have better things to do but here you are. I see you have over 1000 posts. I guess you have to get over to the other threads.

You don't need a thesis, just one picture showing legitimate carrying capacity. I can carry 14 of those sleeping bag things you have dangling from your recumbent and my legs can pedal.

It's fine if your bikes do what you like. But in no way, shape or form are your bikes and cargo bikes in the same league.

Not miserable and ignorant. In fact you've shown you're the ignorant one.

"But since I like to throw a dog a bone I'll tell you you're wrong about clearances, wrong about me owning child's bikes, and wrong about the price of cargo bikes. "

Prove it.

chucky

That's not a sleeping bag. Like I said, you better come here to see for yourself because you don't have a clue.

Make me.

xoalaska

Either you're resorting to childish taunts or actually trying to challenge me to a fist fight.

Wait, those are the same things.

Tell you what, lay out all the crap that you need to carry, and I'll show you how you can carry it efficiently and easily on an Xtracycle. Of course, you actually have to be interested in purchasing a cargo bike rather than criticizing one.

lotek 

lets keep the name calling to a minimum.
Any further name calling, taunts etc. will result in infractions.

lotek

invisiblehand

Bicycle Quarterly just reviewed the (stock) Big Dummy. They thought it compared poorly with alternatives.

xoalaska

Oh no, not Jan Heine again.

What was the gist--what were the alternatives?

xoalaska

Jan's bias is for carrying things in the front, period. He has made a reputation for low trail randonneuses and I'll bet anything this bias has coloured his view of the Big Dummy and longtails in general.

It's sad because he's smart and makes well thought-out arguments. Unfortunately he tends to find a result before the test.

If one person doesn't buy a Big Dummy or any cargo bike at all based solely on Jan's opinion, then he will have done a disservice.

invisiblehand

I have to run so please forgive my brevity without any context ... which is likely important for a lot of people. From memory ...

Essentially he compared it to the Frances Smallhaul and unspecified trailers.

... for its capacity, the Big Dummy is heavy and slow with poor slow speed handling characteristics relative to the much more expensive Smallhaul.

... loading a trailer was easier for many loads relative to a Big Dummy.

... concluded that a trailer was probably a better choice for most people than a Big Dummy.

There was a thread on the iBOB list on the topic that includes Jan.

https://yojimg.net/bike/ibob/reader/

xoalaska

Thanks for the response. Tried to get on the iBob list but it's crashing, just like the old days.

As predicted he likes the front loader. I forgot he uses trailers--of course he would rate them higher.

I have a copy of BQ sitting next to me collecting dust. Opening it now I see it's the issue reviewing the Frances. So basically he's ridden exactly two cargo bikes of completely different designs and strengths.

Thanks for once again confirming your own biases, Jan.

Arcanum

Your definition of "short john" is wrong. A simple Google search for "short john bike" demonstrates this. "Short john" is another term for traditionally-styled baker's bikes, such as the Human Powered Machines Express.

Since you fail at even basic terminology, talking to you is a waste of time. I suspect you're just a troll anyway, in which case you should be banned.