Taking the lane vs impeding traffic
04-03-15, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
Indeed it does. Thanks. I did not realize that MI has a mandatory helmet law for adults.
[h=3]14. Does a bicyclist have to wear a helmet?[/h] [h=5]Although the MVC does not require bicyclists to wear helmets, we strongly recommend wearing one ..."
[/h]
04-03-15, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by prathmann
Where did you get the impression that it does? From the last link from LMB above: "
14. Does a bicyclist have to wear a helmet?
Although the MVC does not require bicyclists to wear helmets, we strongly recommend wearing one ..."
14. Does a bicyclist have to wear a helmet?
Although the MVC does not require bicyclists to wear helmets, we strongly recommend wearing one ..."
04-03-15, 05:27 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by intransit1217
So we were 2x4 last night on our way out to do on the bike drills. Unfortunately, the shoulder was narrow enough that to pass us cars had to cross a double yellow line.
To me, that is impeding traffic.
What say you?
To me, that is impeding traffic.
What say you?
Wisconsin Legislature: 346.80
Look specifically at 3(a) that says two abreast on a two-lane road.
Wisconsin has a 3ft. 'close pass' law: Wisconsin Legislature: 346.075
I included this since you mentioned 2X4. So, The four pairs of two should be evenly spaced to allow a vehicle to pass one pair at a time.
Last edited by Chris516; 04-05-15 at 03:30 PM.
04-05-15, 08:54 AM
#29
Resident smartass.
As always, it will be situation dependent. If I need to take the Lane I will. If there is traffic behind me, I will find a safe place to pull over and let them by at the earliest opportunity. You had to take the lane for obvious reasons, so for you, you did nothing wrong. As for the drivers passing you on a double solid, most State and Provincial Laws allow a motorist to cross the double solid while passing cyclists, slow moving vehicles/equipment and pedestrians when it is safe to do so.
In order to impede traffic, you would have been in a position on the road that would have prevented motorists from overtaking you.
In order to impede traffic, you would have been in a position on the road that would have prevented motorists from overtaking you.
04-05-15, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf
As always, it will be situation dependent. If I need to take the Lane I will. If there is traffic behind me, I will find a safe place to pull over and let them by at the earliest opportunity. You had to take the lane for obvious reasons, so for you, you did nothing wrong. As for the drivers passing you on a double solid, most State and Provincial Laws allow a motorist to cross the double solid while passing cyclists, slow moving vehicles/equipment and pedestrians when it is safe to do so.
In order to impede traffic, you would have been in a position on the road that would have prevented motorists from overtaking you.
In order to impede traffic, you would have been in a position on the road that would have prevented motorists from overtaking you.
It's so sad to see so many new cyclists adopt the motorhead viewpoint that absolute speed is the only factor without taking into account the vehicle type.
04-05-15, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
There's more to it than that. A standard interpretation of impeding traffic involves the alleged impediment's speed relative to a normal vehicle of its type.
04-05-15, 08:31 PM
#32
Vegan on a bicycle
Overtaking a Group of Cyclists - Stayin' Alive at 1.5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJiixtKuVq8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJiixtKuVq8
04-05-15, 08:34 PM
#33
Vegan on a bicycle
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Any standard/legitimate source for this "standard interpretation" besides BF and similar blog legal conjuring?
if that weren't the case, then people who drive farm equipment on the roads would be getting ticketed every day for impeding traffic.
04-05-15, 08:38 PM
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Bikeheads will move the goalposts as needed to support their singular point of view.
04-05-15, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by smasha
last i checked, that's consistent with case law in all 50 states and the UK... that if, under the conditions, a vehicle has a top speed of (say) 25mph, then that vehicle when travelling at or near 25mph is NOT impeding traffic.
if that weren't the case, then people who drive farm equipment on the roads would be getting ticketed every day for impeding traffic.
if that weren't the case, then people who drive farm equipment on the roads would be getting ticketed every day for impeding traffic.
So you;re right, farmers on tractors don't get ticketed, but they also don't hold people up more than necessary. Like the roads themselves, life is a 2 way street.
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04-05-15, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by smasha
last i checked, that's consistent with case law in all 50 states and the UK... that if, under the conditions, a vehicle has a top speed of (say) 25mph, then that vehicle when travelling at or near 25mph is NOT impeding traffic.
if that weren't the case, then people who drive farm equipment on the roads would be getting ticketed every day for impeding traffic.
if that weren't the case, then people who drive farm equipment on the roads would be getting ticketed every day for impeding traffic.
04-05-15, 08:59 PM
#37
Vegan on a bicycle
generally, the guidelines for where and when to move over to let other traffic pass is along the lines of "where it is safe and practicable". based on the video i posted, i would argue that if there's no shoulder, single file is neither safer nor more practicable than two abreast.
if there's a shoulder, if a platoon of traffic can overtake safely, if that's followed by a gap in traffic where a "slow moving vehicle" can re-enter the road, and if it can all be done safely... then of course the smart thing to do is pull over and wave other traffic ahead. too many roads lack a safe place to pull over, or traffic is steady and there's no gaps to get back on the road, or... it doesn't always work that way.
if there's a shoulder, if a platoon of traffic can overtake safely, if that's followed by a gap in traffic where a "slow moving vehicle" can re-enter the road, and if it can all be done safely... then of course the smart thing to do is pull over and wave other traffic ahead. too many roads lack a safe place to pull over, or traffic is steady and there's no gaps to get back on the road, or... it doesn't always work that way.
04-05-15, 09:01 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by smasha
last i checked, that's consistent with case law in all 50 states and the UK... that if, under the conditions, a vehicle has a top speed of (say) 25mph, then that vehicle when travelling at or near 25mph is NOT impeding traffic.
if that weren't the case, then people who drive farm equipment on the roads would be getting ticketed every day for impeding traffic.
if that weren't the case, then people who drive farm equipment on the roads would be getting ticketed every day for impeding traffic.
Is any of this U.S. "case law" actually documented anywhere as setting precedent for traffic courts? If so, you wouldn't add that clarifying statement about "if that weren't the case...", which to me sounds as if you are just speculating about alleged "case law" on this issue.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 04-05-15 at 09:05 PM.
04-05-15, 09:01 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
If that is the case, why not ride four abreast rather than two?
Originally Posted by Chief
or maybe find a bike trail ??!!
Originally Posted by kickstart
Check your states laws?
This differs to Victoria for example, that simply state you give "sufficient" clearance. (They do not define what "sufficient" is.) I'm not sure what New South Wales requires. I don't think we're alone here, I'm sure the laws in the US differ wildly between states too, your best bet is to go get a copy of the act in question and have a good read, or seek professional advice from a legal representative.
04-05-15, 09:07 PM
#40
Vegan on a bicycle
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I take it that your reference to "case law" means there are no statutory laws implementing this alleged special dispensation for bicycles and other slow vehicles.
Is any of this U.S. "case law" actually documented anywhere as setting precedent for traffic courts? If so, you wouldn't add that clarifying statement about "if that weren't the case...", which to me sounds as if you are just speculating about alleged "case law" on this issue.
Is any of this U.S. "case law" actually documented anywhere as setting precedent for traffic courts? If so, you wouldn't add that clarifying statement about "if that weren't the case...", which to me sounds as if you are just speculating about alleged "case law" on this issue.
it's come across my desk a few times. if you want references, go hire a lawyer.
04-05-15, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by smasha
the issue is not specifically addressed by statutory law in any jurisdiction that i'm aware of. and it's not a "special dispensation", it seems like common sense, as it applies to farm equipment, disabled vehicles, bicycles, animal-drawn vehicles, people riding animals, etc.
it's come across my desk a few times. if you want references, go hire a lawyer.
it's come across my desk a few times. if you want references, go hire a lawyer.
04-05-15, 09:20 PM
#42
Vegan on a bicycle
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
OK, thanks for clarifying; your "case law" is nothing more than your opinion about what makes sense to you.
04-05-15, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by smasha
no, when i say "case law", i am actually referring to court cases that stand at the state level appellate courts.
This one is kind of funny since there have been many threads in A&S devoted to the case out of Ohio that has become somewhat of a touchstone for this issue and he has had the reference on his monitor but seems to have forgotten it (or not).
04-05-15, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by smasha
no, when i say "case law", i am actually referring to court cases that stand at the state level appellate courts.
04-05-15, 09:44 PM
#45
Vegan on a bicycle
Originally Posted by B. Carfree
Don't worry, I Like TB will never look anything up. If someone notes that the sun rises in the east, he'll ask for a citation. It's just the way he rolls.
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Traffic court cases that stand at the state level appellate courts? Yeah, OK, sure, whatever you say.
04-05-15, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
Don't worry, I Like TB will never look anything up. If someone notes that the sun rises in the east, he'll ask for a citation. It's just the way he rolls.
This one is kind of funny since there have been many threads in A&S devoted to the case out of Ohio that has become somewhat of a touchstone for this issue and he has had the reference on his monitor but seems to have forgotten it (or not).
This one is kind of funny since there have been many threads in A&S devoted to the case out of Ohio that has become somewhat of a touchstone for this issue and he has had the reference on his monitor but seems to have forgotten it (or not).
Ya know like maybe you can describe how "the case out of Ohio" sets a precedent that any other jurisdiction or traffic court is required to follow. Or provide any reference to the alleged "standard interpretation" of impeding traffic as it refers to bicycles that you mentioned previously. Is it the same vaporous source as smasha's case law on the subject?
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 04-05-15 at 10:13 PM.
04-05-15, 10:31 PM
#47
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I suspect that for most drivers any bike in the lane they are in is impeding traffic... It's just the way people see things, whether you actually are or not impeding traffic is a different matter...
04-05-15, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Bikeheads will move the goalposts as needed to support their singular point of view.
Please read the entirety of the Code of Viriginia WRT bicycling, relevant portions bolded:
https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...0+cod+46.2-905
§ 46.2-905. Riding bicycles, electric personal assistive mobility devices, electric power-assisted bicycles, and mopeds on roadways and bicycle paths.
Any person operating a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, or moped on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place under conditions then existing shall ride as close as safely practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following circumstances:
1. When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway;
3. When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right curb or edge;
4. When avoiding riding in a lane that must turn or diverge to the right; and
5. When riding upon a one-way road or highway, a person may also ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of such roadway as safely practicable.
For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane too narrow for a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, motorized skateboard or foot-scooter, or moped and another vehicle to pass safely side by side within the lane.
Persons riding bicycles, electric personal assistive mobility devices, or electric power-assisted bicycles on a highway shall not ride more than two abreast. Persons riding two abreast shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, shall move into a single file formation as quickly as is practicable when being overtaken from the rear by a faster moving vehicle, and, on a laned roadway, shall ride in a single lane.
Notwithstanding any other provision of law to the contrary, the Department of Conservation and Recreation shall permit the operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices on any bicycle path or trail designated by the Department for such use.
Any person operating a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, or moped on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place under conditions then existing shall ride as close as safely practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following circumstances:
1. When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway;
3. When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right curb or edge;
4. When avoiding riding in a lane that must turn or diverge to the right; and
5. When riding upon a one-way road or highway, a person may also ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of such roadway as safely practicable.
For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane too narrow for a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, motorized skateboard or foot-scooter, or moped and another vehicle to pass safely side by side within the lane.
Persons riding bicycles, electric personal assistive mobility devices, or electric power-assisted bicycles on a highway shall not ride more than two abreast. Persons riding two abreast shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, shall move into a single file formation as quickly as is practicable when being overtaken from the rear by a faster moving vehicle, and, on a laned roadway, shall ride in a single lane.
Notwithstanding any other provision of law to the contrary, the Department of Conservation and Recreation shall permit the operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices on any bicycle path or trail designated by the Department for such use.
Note also that bikes moving at the speed of traffic have no responsibility at all to keep as far right as practicable. At all.
04-05-15, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by smasha
i should know better than to bother commenting on any thread that he fouls with his presence...
yes. traffic cases are appealed at the state level. it happens routinely. when it happens, the decisions often becomes part of "case law". if this surprises you, then you are way, way, out of your element trying to debate it.
yes. traffic cases are appealed at the state level. it happens routinely. when it happens, the decisions often becomes part of "case law". if this surprises you, then you are way, way, out of your element trying to debate it.
It's spelled in in VA, at least, and VA is probably not very different from other states.
04-05-15, 10:39 PM
#50
Just a person on bike
Originally Posted by 350htrr
I suspect that for most drivers any bike in the lane they are in is impeding traffic... It's just the way people see things, whether you actually are or not impeding traffic is a different matter...
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