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Taking the lane vs impeding traffic

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Taking the lane vs impeding traffic

Old 04-07-15, 08:18 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
They're referring to Trotwood v. Selz. Selz was given a traffic ticket for 'impeding traffic', violating a city ordinance in Trotwood, OH.


Selz was convicted and the case was appealed up to an appellate court (Ohio's second), where Selz prevailed.
Selz case, Fred Oswald

I would bet this has been pointed out to you before...yup, it was discussed in a previous thread you participated in. It was brought up in post 28, with you making posts both shortly before and shortly after that (posts 7 and 41).
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...do-i-call.html
Amusing. A five year old thread with 243 posts and only a couple of post mentioned the Trotwood v. Selz case, which I did not discuss or respond to in any way. Whatever!

"The case out of Ohio" does not set a precedent that any other jurisdiction or traffic court is required to follow. It also made clear that even in that specific case a bicyclist can beat the rap on "impeding traffic" (with the help of a bicycle lawyer and Legal Fund), and still could have been charged and convicted of violations of Ohio FRAP laws 4511.55(A) similar the VA law 46.2-905 previously cited by achoo.
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Old 04-07-15, 08:36 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
Excuse me? I'm not FORCING anyone to do anything. If it's not safe to pass, it's not safe to pass. Doesn't matter if I'm controlling my lane or hugging the edge. If it's not safe to pass, the motorist needs to SLOW THE HELL DOWN momentarily until it's safe to pass. The difference is that when I'm controlling the lane it's crystal clear from hundreds of yards out that the motorist must slow down and wait until it's safe to pass. When hugging the edge line, it's not clear until they're almost on top of you, which is when you get swerving, slamming on brakes, close passes, etc.

It makes perfect sense to me. Why is it so difficult for many people to grasp the concept?
You have a point, the semi I referenced was no doubt controlling the lane, and still got clipped by the passing car, trying to avoid a head-on. Had it been a bike, probably would simply have been run over in the middle of the lane, from behind. But I wasn't arguing against lane control, I was only suggesting a safer route to ride, in the context of cars crossing double yellow lines to pass, which they will.
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Old 04-07-15, 09:06 PM
  #103  
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That particular video is pretty convincing. So is the bright jersey. Good rear lights would have been a welcome addition. Gonna have to find a professional consultant to help me get my wardrobe and lighting setup on the roadbike so I don't look to Fredly.


Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
https://vimeo.com/17300276
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Old 04-07-15, 09:20 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
Maybe not two, but moving 3-4 feet left really DOES work. Please watch this whole video, all the way to the end. First half with lane control, ALL motorists change lanes fully and with plenty of time to spare. Second half in the right tire track, a number of motorists split lanes as they pass, or change lanes much too late, which means the following cars have much less warning when he becomes visible. I started controlling my lane when I saw this video, and was amazed at how well it works.
4 feet to the left I would be splitting the lanes, no thanks.

Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
Why is it so difficult for many people to grasp the concept?
Because the technique is garbage, Its net result is nothing more than an emotionally empowering placebo for those who lack intestinal fortitude.
A vehicle that changes lanes to pass is the same distance from a cyclist in the left tire track as a vehicle straddling the lanes is from a cyclist in the right tire track. Also, speaking from experience, being to the far left is an invitation to being passed on the right, and can be antagonistic to those looking for a reason to express their bias.
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Old 04-07-15, 09:30 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by RoadTire View Post
That particular video is pretty convincing. So is the bright jersey. Good rear lights would have been a welcome addition. Gonna have to find a professional consultant to help me get my wardrobe and lighting setup on the roadbike so I don't look to Fredly.
Keep in mind that only shows a cherry picked location and set of clips to sell a bill of goods. There isn't one magically "correct" way to ride for all conditions and locations.
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Old 04-07-15, 09:42 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
Due to the relatively common perception that cycling is not a genuine/real/equal transportation mode many motorists tend to view cyclists as disagreeable for behavior they would not notice from other modes.
Yes, and no,

I can honestly say I'm subject to as much hostility operating a commercial vehicle which most people recognize as a necessity, as I am riding a bicycle, its really not that often, but tends to stand out because its premise is typically so absurd.

One odd thing I've noticed, when riding my motorcycle with sidecar, I virtually never encounter any difficulties with other road users. I surmise there are so few sidecar rigs on the road, people have no preconceived expectations or prejudice against them.
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Old 04-07-15, 09:47 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
What makes you think it's a common perception? Internet comments? That's a very small slice of the population, actually. If motorists find me disagreeable, I sure as hell don't know it. I just rode 15.5 miles home from work a couple hours ago, on a mix of rural, multi-lane and residential roads. Not a single problem from the hundreds of cars that passed me. They either passed me without incident or waited until it was safe and then passed. Sometimes I would help them along by flagging them by when it was clear ahead, but mostly people just used their own eyes to judge when it was safe to pass, and did so.
IMO, VC-centric classes taught by "i am traffic" types are a recipe for 1% mode forever. I am one of the most aggressive cyclists who comments here but I still have huge empathy for the 30-40% who are interested in cycling but are not interested in pretending to be motorvehicles or dancing with the bull. These classes need to disappear. They are holding us back.
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Old 04-07-15, 09:48 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
Maybe not two, but moving 3-4 feet left really DOES work. Please watch this whole video, all the way to the end. First half with lane control, ALL motorists change lanes fully and with plenty of time to spare. Second half in the right tire track, a number of motorists split lanes as they pass, or change lanes much too late, which means the following cars have much less warning when he becomes visible. I started controlling my lane when I saw this video, and was amazed at how well it works.

https://vimeo.com/17300276


Excuse me? I'm not FORCING anyone to do anything. If it's not safe to pass, it's not safe to pass. Doesn't matter if I'm controlling my lane or hugging the edge. If it's not safe to pass, the motorist needs to SLOW THE HELL DOWN momentarily until it's safe to pass. The difference is that when I'm controlling the lane it's crystal clear from hundreds of yards out that the motorist must slow down and wait until it's safe to pass. When hugging the edge line, it's not clear until they're almost on top of you, which is when you get swerving, slamming on brakes, close passes, etc.

It makes perfect sense to me. Why is it so difficult for many people to grasp the concept?



What makes you think it's a common perception? Internet comments? That's a very small slice of the population, actually. If motorists find me disagreeable, I sure as hell don't know it. I just rode 15.5 miles home from work a couple hours ago, on a mix of rural, multi-lane and residential roads. Not a single problem from the hundreds of cars that passed me. They either passed me without incident or waited until it was safe and then passed. Sometimes I would help them along by flagging them by when it was clear ahead, but mostly people just used their own eyes to judge when it was safe to pass, and did so.
You and the video make a lot of noise that some drivers "split lanes" to pass. So What? The drivers gave the cyclist plenty of room. The video claims other drivers "waited too long" to pass. Based on what criteria and what makes anyone think that if the cyclist was several feet more to the left the drivers would have not waited the same amount of time before making their pass?

I call "shennanigans" about the whole phoney baloney intent of the video and the Vehicular Cycling dogmatists of Cycle Savvy. Probably one of the few bicycling organizations still enthralled with the John Forester ideology.
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Old 04-07-15, 11:32 PM
  #109  
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Cycling is good I also like it but all must ride cycles and also other vehicles according to the law of their nation. If you break the law and unfortunately something happens then all guilt goes on you.
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Old 04-08-15, 04:39 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
Due to the relatively common perception that cycling is not a genuine/real/equal transportation mode many motorists tend to view cyclists as disagreeable for behavior they would not notice from other modes.
Or, they choose to justify it in those other modes, as 'no problem'. An example of that being the way motorists' pass other motorists'. They don't pass so close, that you could 'reach out and touch someone'. They may honk at another motorist. But the hostility motorist to motorist, is not that of side mirrors being ripped off. They also, will wait before passing. Because of the double-yellow line, blind curve, or blind hill. But if a cyclist is in front of them, they will try anything to get ahead of a cyclist. It comes down down cyclists' not being respected and considered as genuine users of the road.

Last edited by Chris516; 04-08-15 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 04-08-15, 07:26 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
IMO, VC-centric classes taught by "i am traffic" types are a recipe for 1% mode forever. I am one of the most aggressive cyclists who comments here but I still have huge empathy for the 30-40% who are interested in cycling but are not interested in pretending to be motorvehicles or dancing with the bull. These classes need to disappear. They are holding us back.
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
You and the video make a lot of noise that some drivers "split lanes" to pass. So What? The drivers gave the cyclist plenty of room. The video claims other drivers "waited too long" to pass. Based on what criteria and what makes anyone think that if the cyclist was several feet more to the left the drivers would have not waited the same amount of time before making their pass?

I call "shennanigans" about the whole phoney baloney intent of the video and the Vehicular Cycling dogmatists of Cycle Savvy. Probably one of the few bicycling organizations still enthralled with the John Forester ideology.
Both of you have a completely wrong idea about CyclingSavvy and the American Bicycle Education Association.

From their website Origins and Principles | CyclingSavvy, emphasis added:

Originally Posted by CylingSavvy
CyclingSavvy stresses the advantages of being different. Bicycling is not merely motoring at a lower speed on a smaller vehicle. People want cycling to be enjoyable, not just safe. To that end, we show cyclists how to develop routes using pleasant, low-speed streets, trails, and connector paths where feasible, and major roadways where necessary. Often travel on a short stretch of major road is required to connect the local streets. By understanding how traffic flow works, cyclists can take advantage of the major roads without excessive interaction with high volumes of auto traffic.
The point of CS is not to shun all bicycle infrastructure, though poorly-designed and dangerous infra is definitely shunned. No, the point is to give cyclists the tools necessary to easily ride a bike anywhere, regardless of the presence of any bike-specific infrastructure. Most places in this country do not have bike infrastructure, and what does exist is very much incomplete. My town has nothing at all, zilch. But using CS techniques I can still get to pretty much anywhere in town by bike.

Also from that same page, the course curriculum is completely original, and not based on any previous courses like Forester's Effective Cycling, from which the LAB's TS101 course is derived (also a good course, which I have taken, provided you have a good instructor).
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Old 04-08-15, 07:32 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
4 feet to the left I would be splitting the lanes, no thanks.
No, I said 3-4 feet left of the right tire track. That puts you somewhere between center and the left tire track, or more importantly, the same position laterally in the lane as motorists' eyes in their head.

Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Because the technique is garbage, Its net result is nothing more than an emotionally empowering placebo for those who lack intestinal fortitude.
A vehicle that changes lanes to pass is the same distance from a cyclist in the left tire track as a vehicle straddling the lanes is from a cyclist in the right tire track. Also, speaking from experience, being to the far left is an invitation to being passed on the right, and can be antagonistic to those looking for a reason to express their bias.
How can you say it's garbage when hundreds, if not thousands of people practice these techniques with great success? Have you even tried it for any length of time, and I mean really, truly tried real lane control for more than a few minutes? Myself and many others report close passes when edge riding, and zero close passes when controlling the lane. How the hell is that garbage??

Unless of course you like being buzz passed, maybe you get some kind of sick pleasure out of it? Gives you a reason to berate motorists perhaps? You keep doing that then, I guess. But don't call something garbage when it works for many people, and truthfully it has probably prevented a number of bike/car crashes.
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Old 04-08-15, 07:36 AM
  #113  
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And millions use other techniques with "great success" although great success is undefined, I will assume its not getting run over.
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Old 04-08-15, 07:48 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
And millions use other techniques with "great success" although great success is undefined, I will assume its not getting run over.
Exactly,
Some people just need something to assuage their insecurities, and will perceive its "success" as they need to.
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Old 04-08-15, 07:52 AM
  #115  
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Sorry but I want more than just "not being run over". I want a pleasant ride. The truth is that many cyclists riding in bike lanes, at the road edge, and on shoulders or sidewalks DO get run over. So what is the problem then? Should motorists wake the hell up and be more attentive and less distracted? Absolutely. But if I can do something to better my chances of that motorist waking up and noticing me, I'm going to do it. And controlling my lane is the best thing to do. Why? Because I still got close passed even when wearing high-viz and bright flashing lights when I was still edge riding. The ONLY thing that stopped the close passing was controlling my lane.
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Old 04-08-15, 07:56 AM
  #116  
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If "not getting run over" is the main objective while riding a bike, then that right there is what keeps so many people off the bike. Why not teach people crash avoidance techniques to give them a much better chance of NOT getting run over? That's part of what the CS curriculum does.
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Old 04-08-15, 07:57 AM
  #117  
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fwiw. the lawyer got back to me. The short answer is, depends on circumstances. After following this thread since I incepted it, I would say we weren't in the wrong that evening.

The only things that could be improved on in my original instance would be time of day, we were starting out at 5:30, prime travel time. And possible a different route. Don't know if there was one.

We had no line of cars at any time, we were "behaved" and only used that part of the road as long as necessary. Of course that doesn't qualify the motorists perception that encountered us.
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Old 04-08-15, 07:57 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
Sorry but I want more than just "not being run over". I want a pleasant ride. The truth is that many cyclists riding in bike lanes, at the road edge, and on shoulders or sidewalks DO get run over. So what is the problem then? Should motorists wake the hell up and be more attentive and less distracted? Absolutely. But if I can do something to better my chances of that motorist waking up and noticing me, I'm going to do it. And controlling my lane is the best thing to do. Why? Because I still got close passed even when wearing high-viz and bright flashing lights when I was still edge riding. The ONLY thing that stopped the close passing was controlling my lane.
Perhaps the video that you posted with it's disapproval and complaint of "lane splitting" cars even though the passes shown were with plenty of room is related to your reports of "close passing" preventing a pleasant ride.
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Old 04-08-15, 08:01 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
If "not getting run over" is the main objective while riding a bike, then that right there is what keeps so many people off the bike. Why not teach people crash avoidance techniques to give them a much better chance of NOT getting run over? That's part of what the CS curriculum does.
Any credible data or evidence other than anecdotes to support your, LAB's or Cycling Savvy's claim of risk reduction for people trained by Cycling Savvy or LAB's TS101 course?
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Old 04-08-15, 08:01 AM
  #120  
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Has any one asked a person in their neighborhood, someone they don't know, what their perception of cyclists is?
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Old 04-08-15, 08:36 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
Keep in mind that only shows a cherry picked location and set of clips to sell a bill of goods. There isn't one magically "correct" way to ride for all conditions and locations.
You keep claiming this over and over when no one is saying that. There's a difference between saying you have the right to take the lane wherever it's legal and you should take the lane always. It seems almost willful that this point that you try to blur that distinction. I'm not a VCer myself, and I usually ride on the right tire track. But I don't try to belittle people who do take the lane because we have a different riding philosophy. This isn't about making someone feel bad, it's about reinforcing negative pressure for people to choose what they think is safest for them within the bounds of the law. Your endless ranting of, "it's legal but it's still wrong" is essentially telling people that they don't have the right to decide for themselves, regardless if it annoys drivers. If it's legal, you choose for yourself. I support people who encourage others to see VC as a legitimate alternative to more typical riding patterns. I've employed it myself on occasion where it felt like the safest thing.
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Old 04-08-15, 08:48 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Any credible data or evidence other than anecdotes to support your, LAB's or Cycling Savvy's claim of risk reduction for people trained by Cycling Savvy or LAB's TS101 course?
I don't believe such data exists, unfortunately. I do know that I've only heard of 2 or 3 people hit while controlling their lane, and zero killed. I have heard/seen far more reports of crashes and deaths of cyclists riding at the edge of the road or on the shoulder.

I Am Traffic is attempting to catalog some data on lane control vs. other techniques with this survey. The more people who complete the survey, the better the data will be:

"I Am Traffic" Bicyclist Lane Control Survey - i am traffic
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Old 04-08-15, 08:53 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Cyclosaurus View Post
You keep claiming this over and over when no one is saying that. There's a difference between saying you have the right to take the lane wherever it's legal and you should take the lane always. It seems almost willful that this point that you try to blur that distinction. I'm not a VCer myself, and I usually ride on the right tire track. But I don't try to belittle people who do take the lane because we have a different riding philosophy. This isn't about making someone feel bad, it's about reinforcing negative pressure for people to choose what they think is safest for them within the bounds of the law. Your endless ranting of, "it's legal but it's still wrong" is essentially telling people that they don't have the right to decide for themselves, regardless if it annoys drivers. If it's legal, you choose for yourself. I support people who encourage others to see VC as a legitimate alternative to more typical riding patterns. I've employed it myself on occasion where it felt like the safest thing.
I ride in the lane more often than not, including the left tire track if warranted by actual conditions. VC is a valid and useful technique when done intelligently, and that includes not doing it dogmatically. Presenting any one technique as a magical cure all for every situation is dangerous and irresponsible, especially when it calls for eschewing shoulders or bike lanes when perfectly safe and usable.
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Old 04-08-15, 09:08 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
I don't believe such data exists, unfortunately. I do know that I've only heard of 2 or 3 people hit while controlling their lane, and zero killed. I have heard/seen far more reports of crashes and deaths of cyclists riding at the edge of the road or on the shoulder.
Thanks for responding. As expected, anecdotes are the basis for the risk reduction claims made for the Cycling Savvy and LAB training programs.

Note: Given that most cyclists shun "lane control", especially amongst fast or heavy traffic and instead ride at the edge of the road, or on the shoulder, it is not surprising that you have seen/heard more "reports of crashes" occurring there.
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Old 04-08-15, 10:16 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
I ride in the lane more often than not, including the left tire track if warranted by actual conditions. VC is a valid and useful technique when done intelligently, and that includes not doing it dogmatically. Presenting any one technique as a magical cure all for every situation is dangerous and irresponsible, especially when it calls for eschewing shoulders or bike lanes when perfectly safe and usable.
If the conditions are such that I can share the lane easily with a car, then sure I'll do it. But those conditions are few and far in between where I live.

I'm curious, do you disagree with any of the points presented here, or think any of them are incorrect? If so, why? Ten Tips for Successful Cycling | CyclingSavvy
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