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Taking the lane vs impeding traffic

Old 04-08-15, 10:33 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
If the conditions are such that I can share the lane easily with a car, then sure I'll do it. But those conditions are few and far in between where I live.

I'm curious, do you disagree with any of the points presented here, or think any of them are incorrect? If so, why? Ten Tips for Successful Cycling | CyclingSavvy
#1 is garbage, #5 is totally acceptable, the rest is a mix of reasonable and garbage.
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Old 04-08-15, 11:06 AM
  #127  
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You seriously think sidewalk riding is faster for anything over 5-8 mph?

I've ridden on sidewalks and side paths that are basically wide sidewalks, and no. Just no. It was an awful experience. You're so much less visible to motorists it's ridiculous.
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Old 04-08-15, 11:32 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
You seriously think sidewalk riding is faster for anything over 5-8 mph?

I've ridden on sidewalks and side paths that are basically wide sidewalks, and no. Just no. It was an awful experience. You're so much less visible to motorists it's ridiculous.
I ride approximately 2 miles on a sidewalk on my pm commute, being all up hill it doesn't have any effect on my speed, I've never had the slightest difficulty or conflict doing so, and have never in all the years I have lived in the area seen a cyclist ride in the lane on this particular hill, but opting to take the sidewalk, the bus, or use other routes.

Its a choice made by circumstance, not dogma.
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Old 04-08-15, 12:38 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by howsteepisit
And millions use other techniques with "great success" although great success is undefined, I will assume its not getting run over.
+1 Gives me a smile.
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Old 04-08-15, 12:48 PM
  #130  
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Sidewalks around here are wretched. They're up and down and bumpy and have uneven surfaces and swervy and too narrow. I'd hate to have to ride on them.
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Old 04-08-15, 01:21 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by kickstart
I ride approximately 2 miles on a sidewalk on my pm commute, being all up hill it doesn't have any effect on my speed, I've never had the slightest difficulty or conflict doing so, and have never in all the years I have lived in the area seen a cyclist ride in the lane on this particular hill, but opting to take the sidewalk, the bus, or use other routes.

Its a choice made by circumstance, not dogma.
You keep using the word "dogma". I think you might be unclear on it's definition. It doesn't mean an opinion different than yours.
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Old 04-08-15, 01:31 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
Sidewalks around here are wretched. They're up and down and bumpy and have uneven surfaces and swervy and too narrow. I'd hate to have to ride on them.
The sidewalks I ride for my pm commute were much like that, but it wasn't much of a hardship while mashing up a 15% grade at 4 mph. They're almost finished replacing them and its really nice now, I sure won't miss the frantic up hill sprints past the sections under construction.
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Old 04-08-15, 01:49 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Leebo
Sometimes I have a "nice" driver behind me and will not pass me even if it safe to do so, then the cars tend to back up behind them. 4-8 deep. At that point I sometimes will pull into a driveway and stop to get a drink of water. And let them all get past me.
This is the genesis of the good majority of my rather infrequent scuffles with rude drivers. You take to waving obvious hand signals to let them know you think it is more than safe for them to pass and they don't budge. Somehow that's my fault.
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Old 04-08-15, 02:07 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by kickstart
I ride approximately 2 miles on a sidewalk on my pm commute, being all up hill it doesn't have any effect on my speed, I've never had the slightest difficulty or conflict doing so, and have never in all the years I have lived in the area seen a cyclist ride in the lane on this particular hill, but opting to take the sidewalk, the bus, or use other routes.

Its a choice made by circumstance, not dogma.
So what you're saying is... a Pinarello bike certainly did NOT make you do it.
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Old 04-08-15, 02:45 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
So what you're saying is... a Pinarello bike certainly did NOT make you do it.
Other than knowing they're expensive bikes, I don't get the joke.
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Old 04-08-15, 03:00 PM
  #136  
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Costs about 7 G's
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Old 04-08-15, 03:09 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
Costs about 7 G's
Yeah, my brother has a high end Pinarello.
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Old 04-08-15, 03:52 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by intransit1217
Has any one asked a person in their neighborhood, someone they don't know, what their perception of cyclists is?
Yes, many times. However, it's perhaps a bit unfair since in my neighborhood only 45% of the residents use a car as their primary means of transportation (which is still twice as many as use bikes). As chair of my neighborhood association during some infrastructure work, I interviewed hundreds of residents on the proposed work. Of course I inquired as to their perception of cyclists. Not surprisingly, a positive perception was pretty universal.

As to their perception of motorists, it was largely negative, even from those who used cars as their primary means of transportation. I should note that my neighborhood has a large number of breweries and restaurants and few of them have any on-site parking. Thus the motorists tend to have a large negative impact on the residents as they park across people's driveways and make lots of noise late at night coming and going from their cars. They also ruin the ambiance for the residents' evening strolls and rides.
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Old 04-08-15, 04:05 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by cellery
This is the genesis of the good majority of my rather infrequent scuffles with rude drivers. You take to waving obvious hand signals to let them know you think it is more than safe for them to pass and they don't budge. Somehow that's my fault.
I ride on the right, and rarely have troubles getting cars to pass me, although sometimes they'll wave me though an intersection that they could have safely gotten through in front of me.

Yesterday I was making a left hand turn on a moderately busy 3 or 4 lane road. So, when clear, I moved from the bike lane over one lane. A car behind me paused, so I waved it past, then crossed the lane behind it, then into the turn lane. No big deal.

I worry about cars passing on blind corners, but try to clear the way as quickly as possible for those that wait.
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Old 04-08-15, 04:08 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Needs disc brakes.


Please don't rip me. I couldn't hep mehsef.
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Old 04-08-15, 04:13 PM
  #141  
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I don't mind impeding traffic but the buses can be a serious hazard on our steep city hills. I'd like to stick it to them but chasing an electric bus just isn't in my legs anymore. I got lots of bark but almost no bite. Haha
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Old 04-08-15, 05:03 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I ride on the right, and rarely have troubles getting cars to pass me
this reflects regional differences. Here in Happy Valley PA, people pass no matter what. Could be a herd of semis coming the other way, they'll still pass. I rode in Virginia last summer, and people just didn't want to pass. I don't wave people around, but I did on that ride. It was ridiculous.
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Old 04-08-15, 05:23 PM
  #143  
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This topic just made me make a distinction: The saying is "share the road", not "share the lane".
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Old 04-08-15, 05:45 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
The point of CS is not to shun all bicycle infrastructure, though poorly-designed and dangerous infra is definitely shunned.
My comment addressed "i am traffic", not cycling savvy. Taking the lane on a 55 mph road is something that not even 1% of the bike commuting public would do but a while ago you linked to a CS video that illustrated a cyclist doing this. I will always defend someone's "right" to ride in the lane (see Cherokee Schill thread) but taking the lane in this context is a worst case scenario and the epitome of high risk. For the vast majority of cyclists, sidewalks and "copenhagen-style crossings" will always be preferable to lane-taking on congested high-speed roads.

My town has nothing at all, zilch.
Memphis has quite a bit of infrastructure:
https://bikepedmemphis.files.wordpre...phis_24x24.pdf


But using CS techniques I can still get to pretty much anywhere in town by bike
Using my "pretend I am Lucas Brunelle" techniques I can also get to pretty much anywhere in any town. Come to think of it maybe I should post some educational videos depicting the safety advantages of slicing through a gap and splitting the center lane at 25.

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Old 04-08-15, 06:15 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
https://cyclingsavvy.org/ten-tips-for-successful-cycling/.

#1 The sidewalk also presents many more hazards such as poles, posts and branches.

OMG! I'm riding on a sidewalk and there is a post. What do I do???

#2 Obey all traffic control devices.

Pure VC politics.

#3 When approaching an intersection in a wide lane or a bike lane, merge left into the main traffic flow or lane.

The average bike commuter will never do this and there are other, often, better options: proceed cautiously, wait on the right until its clear, and/or use the crosswalk/crossbike.

#4 Riding in the center or on the left side is a better option on many lower speed roads.

#5 Good.

#6 Mostly good except for this: Passing a queue of stopped traffic on the right can expose you to many crash hazards.

Merging into traffic is also a crash hazard. Passing a queue of stopped traffic is perfectly fine as long as it's not immediately adjacent to an intersection and/or there is sufficient space.

#8 Want respect? Act respectably. Control your space by default and help motorists pass you when appropriate.

VC politics.

#9 When motorists arrive before you at a red light, stop behind them. Don't pull to the front of the queue and make them have to get around you after the intersection.

Moving to the front of a queue makes cyclists more visible and allows them to clear an intersection without being sandwiched by inattentive drivers. This is especially true when riding in a bike lane.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-08-15 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 04-08-15, 06:33 PM
  #146  
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When riding on a sidewalk, drivers will frequently turn in front of you while never thinking of checking the sidewalk for anything moving faster than a pedestrian. I had this happen once, causing the the driver to stop short while broadside to oncoming traffic, almost causing a wreck. Yes, it would have been his fault, and no, I would not have been directly affected, but that would have bothered me. I seldom ever ride on sidewalks, but in that case it was only about two blocks, and kept me out of rush hour traffic on a 5 lane city street. Another exception is while going up a rather long hill here in town, but then only when traffic is heavy. And that is a nice, new, smooth sidewalk, without much cross traffic.
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Old 04-08-15, 07:19 PM
  #147  
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this was always a VC subject, and so now that's where it is
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Old 04-08-15, 07:21 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by cale
Needs disc brakes.


Please don't rip me. I couldn't hep mehsef.
Needs pedals too.
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Old 04-08-15, 09:48 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
If the conditions are such that I can share the lane easily with a car, then sure I'll do it. But those conditions are few and far in between where I live.

I'm curious, do you disagree with any of the points presented here, or think any of them are incorrect? If so, why? Ten Tips for Successful Cycling | CyclingSavvy
Originally Posted by kickstart
#1 is garbage, #5 is totally acceptable, the rest is a mix of reasonable and garbage.
I don't call #1 garbage. I do agree that there are situations that warrant riding on the sidewalk, but in principle, I believe that bicycles do not belong on the sidewalk.
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Old 04-09-15, 11:47 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by thebird55
This topic just made me make a distinction: The saying is "share the road", not "share the lane".
Yeah that's what I've been saying for awhile now.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel
My comment addressed "i am traffic", not cycling savvy. Taking the lane on a 55 mph road is something that not even 1% of the bike commuting public would do but a while ago you linked to a CS video that illustrated a cyclist doing this. I will always defend someone's "right" to ride in the lane (see Cherokee Schill thread) but taking the lane in this context is a worst case scenario and the epitome of high risk. For the vast majority of cyclists, sidewalks and "copenhagen-style crossings" will always be preferable to lane-taking on congested high-speed roads.



Memphis has quite a bit of infrastructure:
https://bikepedmemphis.files.wordpre...phis_24x24.pdf
Yes I know what infrastructure Memphis has, and a good bit of it sucks. But I don't live in Memphis proper. I live in a suburban town outside Memphis and work in the next neighboring town farther out. Worked here 11 years, lived here 9, can't change anytime soon.

I Am Traffic and Cycling Savvy are basically the same thing. As I quoted above, CS teaches people how to find routes using quiet streets. But sometimes larger, higher-speed streets are required for short distances to connect the quieter streets. Or other times, the destination may be on a high-speed street. For these times when it's necessary to be on the higher-speed streets, it's prudent to use effective crash avoidance techniques, which is also what CS teaches.

The video you mentioned that I posted awhile back I believe showed crossing an interstate overpass. Of course one of the drawbacks of interstate infrastructure, especially within city limits, is very few places to cross. And those places are often larger, higher speed roads. So if you want to cross, you have to deal with that larger road. Bike lanes on highway interchanges have their own problems, as there's no truly safe way for the bike lane to cross the on/off ramps. They end up being more like crosswalks, and you often have to wait for a break in traffic to get through them. Or if you merge right and use the right through lane, you can just keep on riding without having to wait.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel
#1 The sidewalk also presents many more hazards such as poles, posts and branches.

OMG! I'm riding on a sidewalk and there is a post. What do I do???

#2 Obey all traffic control devices.

Pure VC politics.

#3 When approaching an intersection in a wide lane or a bike lane, merge left into the main traffic flow or lane.

The average bike commuter will never do this and there are other, often, better options: proceed cautiously, wait on the right until its clear, and/or use the crosswalk/crossbike.

#4 Riding in the center or on the left side is a better option on many lower speed roads.

#5 Good.

#6 Mostly good except for this: Passing a queue of stopped traffic on the right can expose you to many crash hazards.

Merging into traffic is also a crash hazard. Passing a queue of stopped traffic is perfectly fine as long as it's not immediately adjacent to an intersection and/or there is sufficient space.

#8 Want respect? Act respectably. Control your space by default and help motorists pass you when appropriate.

VC politics.

#9 When motorists arrive before you at a red light, stop behind them. Don't pull to the front of the queue and make them have to get around you after the intersection.

Moving to the front of a queue makes cyclists more visible and allows them to clear an intersection without being sandwiched by inattentive drivers. This is especially true when riding in a bike lane.
I don't understand why you think some of those are "VC politics". Most experienced cyclists and commuters I know and have seen make left turns from the left turn lane. And merging into the right lane at a queue of traffic is far safer than going up the right side. Rear-end bike crashes are not very common. Far more common are crashes where the car turns across the path of the cyclist. Oh and, getting up to the front of the queue and those so-called bike boxes? Rubbish and disrespectful when there's not a bike lane on the other side of the intersection, because now those motorists who passed you previously have to pass you again. Some people call it "shoaling" when a cyclist passes a group of other cyclists waiting at a light, then takes off slowly making the others pass him again. It's generally accepted as ******bag behavior among cyclists, so why would you do it to motorists?

Last edited by PatrickGSR94; 04-09-15 at 11:51 AM.
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