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Old 01-03-18, 07:08 PM   #26
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What do bike lanes have to do with venture capital?
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Old 01-03-18, 07:12 PM   #27
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What do bike lanes have to do with venture capital?
well played
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Old 01-03-18, 07:27 PM   #28
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Ripping out car lanes to save lives makes more sense.
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Old 01-03-18, 07:32 PM   #29
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Posts 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, and 13 discuss VC. VC discussions belong in the VC forum.
So if I bring up VC in the comments of the other threads, they will be moved too?

Just trying to understand the rules...
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Old 01-03-18, 09:51 PM   #30
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well played

VC didn't have bike lanes, not until after the war.
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Old 01-03-18, 09:55 PM   #31
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Always preface links to inflammatory articles with a message that this is probably wee bonnie silly.
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Old 01-03-18, 10:59 PM   #32
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So if I bring up VC in the comments of the other threads, they will be moved too?

Just trying to understand the rules...
When Vehicular Cycling becomes the predominant theme of the thread, then it is usually moved into its sub-forum. After the first 5 or so posts in this current thread it was clear that it was heading that direction and needed to be moved.

The rule is similar to the helmet thread. VC as a teaching or "doctrine", espoused by Forester in his 1970s book, is an extremely volatile subject and it starts very, very heated discussions. Therefore these discussions are moved into their own forum, to keep the peace in other forums. Just like helmet debates are relegated to their own thread.

Moderators and Admins here are very, very good at what they do, and make their decisions objectively. Nothing they do is meant personally, and all of their decisions are based on consensus.

Hope these comments help!
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Old 01-10-18, 01:12 AM   #33
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Always preface links to inflammatory articles with a message that this is probably wee bonnie silly.
To be truthful, I thought the thread title was inflammatory and a little misguided. I appreciate the OP was just trying to get attention for his thread, but, realistically, can anyone deny that bike lanes are anything less than a good thing? I accept that many are ill thought out, but there's no denying the inherent common sense behind constructing as many as possible.
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Old 01-10-18, 05:14 AM   #34
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Vehicular cycling is a useful collection of techniques I use all the time when there isn't any infra available. It's also a stressful activity that feels unsafe, even if you do it in traffic that mainly consists of properly trained and well-behaved motorists. It's for that reason that it's never going to be a solution, it's simply something most people tend to avoid if they can. It only seems to work out well in places with light and/or low-speed motor traffic.
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Old 01-10-18, 11:08 AM   #35
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To be truthful, I thought the thread title was inflammatory and a little misguided. I appreciate the OP was just trying to get attention for his thread, but, realistically, can anyone deny that bike lanes are anything less than a good thing? I accept that many are ill thought out, but there's no denying the inherent common sense behind constructing as many as possible.
I used the title of the article in the title of the thread about that article. It's a general practice I favor to help eliminate duplicate threads about the same article.

And yes, I, for one, can argue that most bike lanes in the USA are less than a good thing. While the space demarcated by them is usually good to have, the demarcation itself usually creates more problems than it solves.

Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 01-10-18 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Added second sentence (about bike lanes)
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Old 01-10-18, 11:12 AM   #36
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Vehicular cycling is a useful collection of techniques I use all the time when there isn't any infra available. It's also a stressful activity that feels unsafe, even if you do it in traffic that mainly consists of properly trained and well-behaved motorists. It's for that reason that it's never going to be a solution, it's simply something most people tend to avoid if they can. It only seems to work out well in places with light and/or low-speed motor traffic.
You're from the Netherlands, so you have ample stress-free infra available to you, albeit where fast cycling might not always be possible.

But in the US the only ones who are stress-free on urban or suburban infra are those who are unaware of the risks. While riding in traffic on roads is not stress-free, I, for one, find it less stressful than riding on most American infra, and certainly it's much faster.
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Old 01-11-18, 11:42 AM   #37
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You're from the Netherlands, so you have ample stress-free infra available to you, albeit where fast cycling might not always be possible.
The idea that Dutch cycling infra isn't suited for fast cycling, mainly exists due to the fact that the likes of Forester can't deal with a reality were the best place to ride a bicycle is a place with obscene amounts of cycling infra. There's also the fact that the Netherlands is densely populated, which can result in heavy traffic at times, but generally spoken fast cycling isn't a problem.

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But in the US the only ones who are stress-free on urban or suburban infra are those who are unaware of the risks. While riding in traffic on roads is not stress-free, I, for one, find it less stressful than riding on most American infra, and certainly it's much faster.
People who are unaware of cycling theory, or whatever you want to call it, form an overwhelming majority of the cyclists. Perceived safety is very important to keep these people on their bicycles.
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Old 01-11-18, 12:28 PM   #38
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The idea that Dutch cycling infra isn't suited for fast cycling, mainly exists due to the fact that the likes of Forester can't deal with a reality were the best place to ride a bicycle is a place with obscene amounts of cycling infra. There's also the fact that the Netherlands is densely populated, which can result in heavy traffic at times, but generally spoken fast cycling isn't a problem.


People who are unaware of cycling theory, or whatever you want to call it, form an overwhelming majority of the cyclists. Perceived safety is very important to keep these people on their bicycles.
Amsterdam has slowest cyclists

"With an average speed of 14.9 km/h Amsterdam has the slowest cyclists. "

That's 9.25 mph. That's frickin slow.

"The longest trip registered was 180.6 km - that’s 32.5 times the daily average!"

That indicates the daily average is a mere 180.6 / 32.5 = 5.5 km, or a laughable 3.4 miles. That's jogging distance.

No wonder they don't mind riding so slow and it's stress-free - they're not going anywhere!
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Old 01-11-18, 12:53 PM   #39
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If a cycling culture is so successful that an overwhelming majority from ages 5-100 rides a bicycle regularly, both average speed and average distance tend to drop dramatically. For obvious reasons i may add, but apparently you don't really understand the obvious.

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Old 01-11-18, 02:08 PM   #40
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If a cycling culture is so successful that an overwhelming majority from ages 5-100 rides a bicycle regularly, both average speed and average distance tend to drop dramatically. For obvious reasons i may add, but apparently you don't really understand the obvious.
Fair enough. But there is a lot more going on in the Netherlands that explains the popularity of cycling as transportation there besides infrastructure, and I don't see that happening in the US for a wide variety of reasons.
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Old 01-11-18, 04:28 PM   #41
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If a cycling culture is so successful that an overwhelming majority from ages 5-100 rides a bicycle regularly, both average speed and average distance tend to drop dramatically. For obvious reasons i may add, but apparently you don't really understand the obvious.
Fiets Telweek

Download an app. Count yourself during the week. You could win a prize.

For the fiesters, rain jackets.
For the fiesters and wielrenners, Garmin Edge Touring.
And grand prize is an ebike.

The Fiets Tel-app does not autopause. This makes sense for obvious reasons.

That and average speed of a population makes no sense. (Median speeds and/or specific percentile speeds do.)

Anyhow, yesterday I ran an errand into Harvard Square.
Same ride, three “computers":

Wahoo: 20 KPH (aggressive sensor-based autopause)
Runkeeper: 19 km/h (less agressive gps-based autopause)
Fiets Tel-app: 15 KM/H (no autopause, gps-based)

I like riding a bike in Amsterdam. I could even ride "fast" on my Gazelle.

But of course the Dutch allegedly have a magic sauce that can’t be shared.

Well, maybe we can learn from the Danes, but they are allegedly like Dutch, can't learn from them either.

The Germans are much more like the Americans in their love of all things auto, so maybe we could learn something from them? (Like if you discover some infra is bad, revise, revise, revise, not nuke, nuke, nuke.)

Nah, we can’t learn, we just have one mantra fits all. But at least we can go fast, because we have to.

De Singelbrug bij de Paleisstraat in Amsterdam in 2017 (Niet Echt Breitnerweer)


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Old 01-12-18, 04:08 AM   #42
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Fair enough. But there is a lot more going on in the Netherlands that explains the popularity of cycling as transportation there besides infrastructure, and I don't see that happening in the US for a wide variety of reasons.
Well then, humor me, what are all those other reasons? Personally I think the infra is the First Cause™ of cycling popularity in NL and all the other things are just fluff. But what do I know, I've only been cycling in the Netherlands for the last 35 years, and you no doubt read something about NL on the interwebz.

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Old 01-12-18, 11:25 AM   #43
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Well then, humor me, what are all those other reasons? Personally I think the infra is the First Cause™ of cycling popularity in NL and all the other things are just fluff. But what do I know, I've only been cycling in the Netherlands for the last 35 years, and you no doubt read something about NL on the interwebz.
Well, off the top of my head:
  1. Bicycling cultural foundation - bike modal usage was very high in 40s/50s (w/o special infra)
  2. Generally flat
  3. Small/tight roads/streets due to much earlier development of cities than in the US
  4. Relatively dense population centers
  5. Relatively short/easy/flat trips conducive to cycling.
  6. Strong anti-motoring culture - expensive/limited parking, high gas/car taxes, whole areas closed to cars (or limited to commercial deliveries), etc
  7. Liability law puts burden of proof on motorist in bike-car crashes
  8. Net result is Dutch motoring is far more expensive and far less convenient, relative to cycling in Holland, than is American motoring relative to cycling in the USA.

I think everything falls from #1, though. That foundation of a strong cycling cultural tradition is the launchpad for all the other pro-cycling initiatives, including the infra. Not the other way around.

Guess whether these 1950s photos are from Netherlands or the USA... Watch the video. Amazing.




Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 01-12-18 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Added "Net result" line
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Old 01-12-18, 11:27 AM   #44
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And, yes, I know there was a brief period when cars began to dominate. But it was that strong cycling tradition that caused the society to fight it, and building separate infra was only part of that effort. Making motoring much more expensive and much less convenient was a bigger part. We don't have a corresponding political inclination in American culture to do that here.

Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 01-12-18 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Added last sentence
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Old 01-13-18, 03:08 AM   #45
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[*]Bicycling cultural foundation - bike modal usage was very high in 40s/50s (w/o special infra)
With the introduction of mopeds, and later cars, the cycling share started to plummet; until we started to go crazy with infra that is.

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[*]Generally flat
Obscenely flat I would say, some regions even fill me with an slight uneasiness, because those are so flat and featureless. But: Of course much of the world is flat enough to facilitate cycling, and what's more, populations tend to be concentrated on all those different plains.

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[*]Small/tight roads/streets due to much earlier development of cities than in the US
Only in Forresters imagination is NL filled with historic city-centers, and only in Forresters imagination are historical city centers convenient for cycling,

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[*]Relatively dense population centers
Population centers are predominantly low-build and not all that densely populated. it tops out at little over 6000/km2. Not particularly impressive, especially since NL is a very densely populated country.

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[*]Relatively short/easy/flat trips conducive to cycling.
More like: people tend to use the bicycle for short/easy/flat trips conducive to cycling.The country is fairly compact though, there's no denying that.

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[*]Strong anti-motoring culture - expensive/limited parking, high gas/car taxes, whole areas closed to cars (or limited to commercial deliveries), etc
There is no strong anti-motoring culture in NL. No-car areas are typically also closed for bicycles, be it that those laws typically aren't enthusiastically enforced. Less known is the fact that large parts of road system, most notably the highway-system, is closed to bicycles. NL is a crowded place, and so is its road system, but all things considered, Dutch motor traffic has some of the best designed road systems on this planet.

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[*]Liability law puts burden of proof on motorist in bike-car crashes
Which is a fairly recent development. More a crowning achievement on the cycling culture than a cause of it.


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I think everything falls from #1, though. That foundation of a strong cycling cultural tradition is the launchpad for all the other pro-cycling initiatives, including the infra. Not the other way around.
Cycling was popular because there simply weren't that many alternatives. Onset of motor traffic mostly happened after WWII. In a way everything was more or less dedicated to bicycles before that, since there wasn't much else to share the road with for cyclists.

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Old 01-13-18, 05:26 AM   #46
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And, yes, I know there was a brief period when cars began to dominate. But it was that strong cycling tradition that caused the society to fight it, and building separate infra was only part of that effort. Making motoring much more expensive and much less convenient was a bigger part. We don't have a corresponding political inclination in American culture to do that here.
Maybe it was just the fact that the Netherlands is a bunch of islands and it's impractical plus they had to build flood control devices of the likes we've never seen even on the Mississippi. The whole place could be a swimming pool in 50-100 years so Philips products will have to float.
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Old 01-13-18, 02:20 PM   #47
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Uh, the UK is a “bunch of islands.”

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Old 01-14-18, 11:03 PM   #48
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DUDE, much BIGGER and above sea level.

That's why there was a little Dutch Boy and that dike story.
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Old 01-14-18, 11:42 PM   #49
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Is there any evidence that this Lawrence Solomon actually owns and rides a bike?

I certainly wouldn't choose bicycle policy based on what someone who is apparently a bike hater says.

As far as getting newbies out on the road... where else should they get experience riding with traffic?

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Old 01-15-18, 07:41 AM   #50
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DUDE, much BIGGER and above sea level.

That's why there was a little Dutch Boy and that dike story.
but NL isn't an archipelago (=bunch of islands) In fact the Dutch made it a point to make NL even less island-ish than it originally was.

Bonus fact: the story of Hans Brinker who fingered the the dike, is an American fairy-tale. Prob. not the best thing as source material tp base your ideas about Soviet Holland on.

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