I realize that, I was just kicking him under the table nicely!;)

And I think Bruce- a founding member of the North Carolina coalition for bicycle driving- realizes his attempts to marginalize this subforum are not going unnoticed ;)

A VC subforum is nothing like what the poorest people live in, nor is it anything like what my ancestors lived in during WWII.

There is no real debate about VC, just mindless inane bickering. For reference, I refer you to every single thread about it on this forum. Every single intelligent thread was turned into a tirade against the previous dissenting poster.

VC "debate" and "discussion" needs a subforum due to its unique semipolitical nature.

I agree. It's too bad your inability to write a thoughtful post without personal attacks made this forum necessary.;)

Seriously, this forum could end up being a very good thing. The problem was not that VC was discussed, it was that a few posters got the vapors whenever HH posted something, and then dragged the thread down. VC topics are still discussed in A&S, but with more civility. If the heckler's veto crowd play their games, and the thread deteriorates into an argument we've had a thousand times, the thread will be moved here.

This subforum could be a very good thing. People who want to argue can do so in the A&S main forum. People who just want to throw junior-high-level insults can do so here.

This subforum should probably be retitled "The Doghouse." My sense is that is how it will operate in practice.

DC knows, he was a fly on the wall during all of the moderators discussions concerning A&S over the last few months and took copious notes that he will now provide for us, won't you DC? I've worked with lots of spin doctors dude, you ain't even in the top 100.

I'll ask the ignored question again....is the Road Racing subforum of the Road Cycling forum considered a slum or doghouse? Perhaps I should go over there and take a poll, see what the members of that subforum feel so we can understand why they are not a bunch of whiners like we seem to have here.

For chris' sake, you'd think people would be happy the vehicular cycling now has a subforum all to itself that is displayed prominently at the very top of the A&S forum, but noooooo...all we hear is WWWWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!! like a bunch of brats being weaned from their nipples. Sometimes I think this should be renamed the sissy forum, for all the crying and complaining I hear..."oh the bad man called me a name and isn't being NICE to me....MOMMY!!!! How do some of you manage to function in the real world?

My take in two simple words: GROW UP!

Oh I don't know, give DC some credit. I NEVER heard anyone else spin the receipt of intense criticism and scorn in to a badge of honor the way DC does. The more criticism and scorn a wacky idea receives the more valid the wacky idea becomes when run through the DC spin cycle.

And DC ain't bad for spinning the words "personal insult" either.

The world is a Ghetto (War)

Walkin' down the street, smoggy-eyed
Looking at the sky, starry-eyed
Searchin' for the place, weary-eyed
Crying in the night, teary-eyed

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Wonder when I'll find paradise
Somewhere there's a home sweet and nice
Wonder if I'll find happiness
Never give it up now I guess

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

------ long instrumental break ------

There's no need to search anywhere
Happiness is here, have your share
If you know you're loved, be secure
Paradise is love to be sure

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

Don't you know that it's true
That for me and for you
The world is a ghetto

(The world is a ghetto)
{21 times and fade}

and then there's this one by Elvis:

"In the Ghetto"

(words & music by scott davis)
As the snow flies
On a cold and gray chicago mornin
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghetto
And his mama cries
cause if theres one thing that she dont need
Its another hungry mouth to feed
In the ghetto

People, dont you understand
The child needs a helping hand
Or hell grow to be an angry young man some day
Take a look at you and me,
Are we too blind to see,
Do we simply turn our heads
And look the other way

Well the world turns
And a hungry little boy with a runny nose
Plays in the street as the cold wind blows
In the ghetto

And his hunger burns
So he starts to roam the streets at night
And he learns how to steal
And he learns how to fight
In the ghetto

Then one night in desperation
A young man breaks away
He buys a gun, steals a car,
Tries to run, but he dont get far
And his mama cries

As a crowd gathers round an angry young man
Face down on the street with a gun in his hand
In the ghetto

As her young man dies,
On a cold and gray chicago mornin,
Another little baby child is born
In the ghetto

DC- are you sure it wasn't helmet head who got a case of the vapors and let his word count runneth over to quell all reasonable discussion that helped create this subforum?

I had never seen so much arguing about semantic definitions of words on a forum about bikes before.....

A overwhelming case of pedantic obfuscationism.

Seriously: http://www.majordickwinters.com/phpB...iles/linda.gif

No, I don't have access to the mod's PM's, but I did read this from the VC sticky in A&S:

And this from chipcom's thank you thread:

This would be a problem if any mention of VC were banned from A&S, but that's not what's going on. If the subforum were used the way you and a few others wanted, it would have the effect of banning half the conversation on issues like bike lanes, facilities, lane position, and "Complete Streets." But VC'ers are participating in A&S threads on those topics right now, and the comments remain. The biggest different is that the discussion is not devolving into name calling ("all we hear is WWWWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!! like a bunch of brats being weaned from their nipples").

To my fellow VC'ers, give this a chance to work. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion in main A&S threads. Just be reasonable, avoid personal attacks (even in response to personal attacks), and stick to the thread topic. This change has the potential to make discussion of VC-related topics much more civil and to prevent a few people from using a heckler's veto to try to shout down arguments they don't agree with.

Edit: Quote from chipcom's thank you thread added.

I ride VC, and I hate the way the threads in A&S degenerate into some kind of pissing match, chestbeating and semantics debates about word usage versus the actual concepts being discussed.

unlike DC's mistaken impressions, vehicular cyclists CAN advocate for on-road bike infrastructure!

I ride according to the rules of the road and I support and use bike facilities.

Something had to be done, and this seems to be working so far.

Actually, the moderators wanted to nuke A&S completely, out of frustration. Then Joe and I discussed just locking it down for a few days. But I think he had suggested before (he is a pretty smart guy) making a subforum in A&S for VC, so here we are. If nothing else, admitting the problem exists seems to have done some good. My singular description of the forums is "Community". If we cannot share ideas and respect other's opinions, we have no community. And if the moderators and admins had a mission statement, it would be something along the lines of preserving, maintaining, and growing our community.

I want to say... I am all for this change. I notice already new topics being brought up in the general A&S forum by new members which would have gotten no notice, or outright scorn, before the forum was split. I also notice that it hasn't stopped the VC discussions from moving right along either. I think this is a win-win situation for all involved.

I agree, except for the "would have gotten ... scorn" comment.

- don't drive much down here, do you? this is exactly how drivers are acting nowadays in my neck of the woods...

- and why i will *never* use some of the roads down here...

But this could never happen in the 21st century, where concerns about global warming, health-consciousness, and enlightened acceptance of diverse people thrives.