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"Right Turn ONLY except Buses & Bikes" Lane- Vehicular?

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Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.
View Poll Results: Can a vehicular cyclist ride in a "Right Turn Only EXCEPT buses and bikes" lane?
Yes.
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63.16%
No.
1
5.26%
Chocolate.
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36.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

"Right Turn ONLY except Buses & Bikes" Lane- Vehicular?

Old 04-23-07, 08:33 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
i don't think you've described the same riding scenario as I have at all, joe.

On the type of road I've described, at the major intersections- like traffic signals- the "right turn only EXCEPT buses and bikes" continues past the intersection. with heavy, 50 mile per hour traffic on the other lanes, the expedient position for a vehicular cyclist is continuing to use the classed lane thru the major intersection.
You are quite the mind reader, or you've cycled on the east coast more than I realized. How do you know how fast or dense the traffic is on the road I described? Or do you just assume that because I use the traffic lane through the busy, major intersections that it must be free of other traffic, because for sure if I got in front of someone going 50-60mph (typcial motorist speed on this road) they would run me over?

The road that I described stays the same exact width for it's entire length except for one 1 mile or so stretch where the shoulder goes away (existing housing prevented the road from being further widened in this area). The only thing that changes is how the outside width of the roadway is marked. It's either a bare shoulder, a right turn lane, a gore area, or a merge lane. As I've said, cyclists treat the outside width in the same exact way as you have described your road to be marked. The only exception is that the buses only use the outer width to stop or aceelerate, not as a through lane.
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Old 04-23-07, 08:36 PM
  #52  
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joe, you are talking about a shoulder of a road that intermittently turns into various road configurations;

I'm talking about a full width, restricted use, specially classed lane for right turning traffic and buses and bikes, that runs for miles on a state highway.
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Old 04-23-07, 08:37 PM
  #53  
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I have never seen a buses and bikes only lane ever in my life. I've seen a buses only lane. I've seen bus turnouts. But never a buses and bikes only lane.

I think I would rather see a bike lane to the left of a bus only lane. That would make it more clear I think for people who might normally ride to the right and be subject to right hooks.

I don't know, call me whatever you have to, but I prefer to have a lane of my own.
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Old 04-23-07, 08:38 PM
  #54  
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How often is there a possible right turn over the miles it runs?
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Old 04-23-07, 08:49 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
I have never seen a buses and bikes only lane ever in my life. I've seen a buses only lane. I've seen bus turnouts. But never a buses and bikes only lane.

I think I would rather see a bike lane to the left of a bus only lane. That would make it more clear I think for people who might normally ride to the right and be subject to right hooks.

I don't know, call me whatever you have to, but I prefer to have a lane of my own.
Why do you deserve one?
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Old 04-23-07, 09:03 PM
  #56  
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Old 04-23-07, 09:17 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
joe, you are talking about a shoulder of a road that intermittently turns into various road configurations;

I'm talking about a full width, restricted use, specially classed lane for right turning traffic and buses and bikes, that runs for miles on a state highway.
So in operation, how does it differ from my road?
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Old 04-23-07, 09:32 PM
  #58  
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i beleive you have clarified the differences up in post #51. 'gore, shoulder, right turn lane, or merge lane is NOT the same as a restricted 'right turn only except classed vehicles' lane.

How do the cyclists ride that road, joe? riding thru the gores, merge lanes, shoulder, right turn lanes indifferently? that sounds a lot different than having a full width travel lane mostly to onesself on a busy suburban state highway. I look back in my mirror, no cars in the right lane. look back again, approaching intersection, a couple cars lined up behind me waiting to turn right.

look back past the intersection, more lane all to myself.

i think, operationally, the use of a full width, restricted class & right turn lane is a lot less problematic than swedging between gores, merges, shoulders, and right turn lanes.

I've ridden on the type of road design you're describing, and think its a bit more tenuous.

but that's my perspective on it.

Last edited by Bekologist; 04-23-07 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 04-24-07, 12:23 PM
  #59  
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I think you are on the right track Bek.

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Old 04-24-07, 06:27 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
i beleive you have clarified the differences up in post #51. 'gore, shoulder, right turn lane, or merge lane is NOT the same as a restricted 'right turn only except classed vehicles' lane.

How do the cyclists ride that road, joe? riding thru the gores, merge lanes, shoulder, right turn lanes indifferently? that sounds a lot different than having a full width travel lane mostly to onesself on a busy suburban state highway. I look back in my mirror, no cars in the right lane. look back again, approaching intersection, a couple cars lined up behind me waiting to turn right.

look back past the intersection, more lane all to myself.

i think, operationally, the use of a full width, restricted class & right turn lane is a lot less problematic than swedging between gores, merges, shoulders, and right turn lanes.

I've ridden on the type of road design you're describing, and think its a bit more tenuous.

but that's my perspective on it.
I should have mentioned that the road I'm speaking of has only one gore area (where two right turn only lanes occur one after the other. I assume it was added to discourage right turners from using the first lane and going straight through into the next one).

Other than that area, a cyclist can ride the full length of the shouldered sections in an area that is the width of a full lane. The only other vehicles using that space are right turning vehicles exitting the roadway, sometimes entering where marked by the turn lane, othertimes long before or after it, and right turning vehicles entering the roadway accelerating up to speed, sometimes going basically straight into the main traffic lanes and other times spending a considerable amount of time on the right side (much like the buses would be on your road, and I suspect other merging traffic). Vehicles crossing the lane are left turning vehicles entering or exitting the road, just like they would be on your road. So again, how does your road differ operationally from my road, other than signage and paint?
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Old 04-24-07, 08:24 PM
  #61  
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umm, you've just described a lot of differences, joe. the road i described has a full width, dedicated and classed travel lane for right turning traffic, buses and bikes.

which would you prefer? a dedicated travel lane, or the road you describe, swedging over shoulders/gores/right turn lanes/merge lanes? I think some riders like AL would be riding your road a heck of a lot differently. I likely would too.
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Old 04-24-07, 08:32 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
umm, you've just described a lot of differences, joe. the road i described has a full width, dedicated and classed travel lane for right turning traffic, buses and bikes.

which would you prefer? a dedicated travel lane, or the road you describe, swedging over shoulders/gores/right turn lanes/merge lanes? I think some riders like AL would be riding your road a heck of a lot differently. I likely would too.
Please define "swedging" for me. I have only heard of "swaging" which has little to do with cycling. And also explain why you would ride my road differently than your road (assume same traffic as your road as it sounds like it's quite similar). And, as I've said, I DO ride my road differently than you ride yours, and I would ride your road the same as mine for the reasons I provided earlier.
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Old 04-24-07, 08:41 PM
  #63  
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joejack-check out the video I posted earlier in this thread. I think this is more like your situation than Beks, which I gather has fewer right turn intersections as it is over the course of miles, not six possible turns all within a mile or so.
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Old 04-24-07, 08:44 PM
  #64  
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it's not MY road, joe. and there are a host of differences between the road you describe and the road I describe. you've clearly defined a host of difference.

swedge is wedge sledding. riding a bike. its a slang term.
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Old 04-24-07, 09:22 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
steve, you WOULDN'T be operating unlawfully in a "Right turn only EXCEPT buses and bikes" lane.
Like I said, a lane as you describe would probably be better for cycling than the long, continuous right-turn-only lanes I see where I live, because it would be usable, and probably better than the bike lanes in my community, due to its greater width and greater use by motor vehicles (i.e. better sweeping action, and better merging before right turns).
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Old 04-24-07, 09:34 PM
  #66  
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Old 04-25-07, 07:31 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Falkon
John, if you were a hotdog and you were starving.... would you eat yourself?
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Old 04-25-07, 07:35 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by John Forester
Why do you deserve one?

She is very, very, very Special!
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Old 04-25-07, 11:15 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
joejack-check out the video I posted earlier in this thread. I think this is more like your situation than Beks, which I gather has fewer right turn intersections as it is over the course of miles, not six possible turns all within a mile or so.
Al
Yes, your video looks more like what I'm used to seeing. Bek has not mentioned whether his road is similar to that or not. Regardless, I still don't see much of a difference between operating on one road as opposed to the other. What are your thoughts on how they differ operationally, Al?

I do agree that the setup Bek has talked about is much less likely to have the usual problems that typical bike lanes have, thanks to being a full lane width and being used by buses. I just don't think it's the perfect design, and neither is the shoulder/right turn lane/merge lane setup that Al has shown which is similar to what I ride everyday.
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Old 04-25-07, 11:20 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Yes, your video looks more like what I'm used to seeing. Bek has not mentioned whether his road is similar to that or not. Regardless, I still don't see much of a difference between operating on one road as opposed to the other. What are your thoughts on how they differ operationally, Al?

I do agree that the setup Bek has talked about is much less likely to have the usual problems that typical bike lanes have, thanks to being a full lane width and being used by buses. I just don't think it's the perfect design, and neither is the shoulder/right turn lane/merge lane setup that Al has shown which is similar to what I ride everyday.
The differences?
In my example a cyclist riding in the right would need to repeatedly enter RTOL from 'rear', cross gore areas, not turn at end of RTOL, etc. There is also visibility needed for potential left crosses in a few places.
In Bek's example (as I imagine it, beks description is not complete) I visualize an outside lane several miles long from which there are a couple possible right turns. This lane continuous and while it is one very long (endless basically) RTOL, there is no end to the RTOL, so its not really a RTOL, its a restricted lane allowing thru traffic for specific vehicle types as well. In this case one can (legally too) ride left biased in this lane. Busses can go around you, right turners can wait or go around if turn is well ahead.
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Old 04-25-07, 11:22 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
it's not MY road, joe. and there are a host of differences between the road you describe and the road I describe. you've clearly defined a host of difference.

swedge is wedge sledding. riding a bike. its a slang term.
I've listed a handful of insignificant differences, basically paint and signage making it explicitly legal for cyclists to continue straight through the area to be used by right turning motorists. The only operational differences are that your lane gets used by buses as well as cyclists, and your road lacks any gore areas. If I am missing anything, please let me know.

Thanks for clarifying swedging.
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Old 04-25-07, 11:29 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
The differences?
In my example a cyclist riding in the right would need to repeatedly enter RTOL from 'rear', cross gore areas, not turn at end of RTOL, etc. There is also visibility needed for potential left crosses in a few places.
In Bek's example (as I imagine it, beks description is not complete) I visualize an outside lane several miles long from which there are a couple possible right turns. This lane continuous and while it is one very long (endless basically) RTOL, there is no end to the RTOL, so its not really a RTOL, its a restricted lane allowing thru traffic for specific vehicle types as well. In this case one can (legally too) ride left biased in this lane. Busses can go around you, right turners can wait or go around if turn is well ahead.
Al
If in Bek's example that intersections are few and far between, then it sounds a lot like a freeway bike lane which I have no issues with, although it sounds like I'd still disagree with Bek on how to handle the intersections.

If intersections are not scattered, then I don't see much of a difference aside from the paint in the lane, or the lack thereof. What difference does it make it if a cyclist is entering a RTOL from the rear (something motorists do often anyway) or if he's entering a theoretical RTOL from the rear (the rear being where most motorists merge into the lane to make their turn)? Similarly, what's the difference between going straight at the end of a RTOL or at the end of a theoretical RTOL? What's keeping you from left biasing in a full lane width shoulder and RTOL?

Throughout the above, I'm intentionally leaving out the legal implications of not abiding by the paint of the road. I realize that the paint makes a difference in the eyes of the legal system but I personally have not seen it make a difference operationally on roads of this type.
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Old 04-25-07, 11:39 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by joejack951
What difference does it make it if a cyclist is entering a RTOL from the rear (something motorists do often anyway) or if he's entering a theoretical RTOL from the rear (the rear being where most motorists merge into the lane to make their turn)? Similarly, what's the difference between going straight at the end of a RTOL or at the end of a theoretical RTOL? What's keeping you from left biasing in a full lane width shoulder and RTOL?

Throughout the above, I'm intentionally leaving out the legal implications of not abiding by the paint of the road. I realize that the paint makes a difference in the eyes of the legal system but I personally have not seen it make a difference operationally on roads of this type.
Well it is about the legal and the practical. (practial meaning what other drivers expect)

First off though, Bek is not describing a RTOL. It is a restricted lane for busses, bicycles and right turning vehicles. Thru traffic is permitted, there is no 'ONLY'

If there is not a marked begining and end to a RTOL, then vehicles merging into it must yield to thru traffic, both legally and practically. If there is no marked end to the lane, then legally and practically vehcles can and will continue straight.

Operationally it is very different due to what I call practical above.
In fact the road in this video used to have a continuous RTOL. There were too many accidents from not proper yielding, drivers woudl get into it too soon before their turn and speed (with blinker on) and exiting/entering drivers would turn in front of them, so it was broken into multiple RTOLs with gore areas in between - I haven't heard if accident rate changed.

Al
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Old 04-25-07, 07:55 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Well it is about the legal and the practical. (practial meaning what other drivers expect)
I throw out legal simply because legal behavior isn't always so obvious to motorists or cyclists and illegal behavior is so often construed as legal simply because it has become the norm. For practical, I'd like to distinguish between what motorists expect of traffic and what motorists expect of cyclists, which often are very different things. In my experience, motorists simply expect cyclists to be off to the side regardless of pavement markings, and most cyclists operate this way too. Some of the rudest behavior I experience with motorists is when avoiding a right turn only lane.

Originally Posted by noisebeam
First off though, Bek is not describing a RTOL. It is a restricted lane for busses, bicycles and right turning vehicles. Thru traffic is permitted, there is no 'ONLY'
I realize that it's not simply a RTOL. But, in the area approaching intersections and for the same direction traffic on the road that the cyclists needs to deal with, it is a RTOL, hence why I called it a "theoretical RTOL." Perhaps not the best choice of words or explanation by myself. Once in that lane though, motorists are committed to having to turn right. Operationally for them, it's not different than a marked RTOL.

Originally Posted by noisebeam
If there is not a marked begining and end to a RTOL, then vehicles merging into it must yield to thru traffic, both legally and practically. If there is no marked end to the lane, then legally and practically vehcles can and will continue straight.
In both cases, motorists will need to yield to other turning/thru traffic. Examples include a motorist who realized after slowing for the light that they wanted to turn right, or a motorist who entered the turn lane but realized the vehicle in front of them was very slow so they pull back into the main traffic lane to pass and then reenter the lane. I don't see the difference for the restricted lane, only there may or may not be a marked beginning where motorists are told they can now enter the lane (Is there signage for this, Bek? Or is it left to the motorist to decide when to enter?) In both cases, if a motorist enters the right turn area and someone in front of them is going slower than their speed, they must yield to them.

Originally Posted by noisebeam
Operationally it is very different due to what I call practical above.
In fact the road in this video used to have a continuous RTOL. There were too many accidents from not proper yielding, drivers woudl get into it too soon before their turn and speed (with blinker on) and exiting/entering drivers would turn in front of them, so it was broken into multiple RTOLs with gore areas in between - I haven't heard if accident rate changed.

Al
The issue of motorists pulling out in front of traffic that they thought would be turning is a good point for how the restricted lane is operationally different from a standard RTOL. I hadn't thought of that. It does help that buses use that lane as well which conditions motorists to expect thru traffic in that far right area of the road. I would be interested in knowing about the accident rate on the road you've described.

I guess to summarize my thoughts on the subject (as if I hadn't already typed enough), thanks to this discussion, I can see how having the benefit of a dual purpose restricted lane, such as the bike/bus lane, can make riding on a high speed arterial road with well spaced right turn only lanes less problematic for cyclists. I believe that much of that benefit would be lost if the buses didn't regularly use that lane though. I could also see that lane quickly becoming a normal traffic lane as traffic density increases in the area.
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