Someone convince me not to put John Forester on ignore
#51
Senior Member
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
Fawning and obsequious are very accurate words for people who allow you to describe them in a condescending tone for their lack of antipathy for John Forester.
Sometimes you remind me of a schoolyard bully, who resorts to intimidation to get his way.
Sometimes you remind me of a schoolyard bully, who resorts to intimidation to get his way.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#52
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Bekologist
every brick and mortar store I've looked in- even Powells' in Portland, arguably one of the best bookstores in america- doesn't have old mossy.
I think he's out of print for a reason- unreadable! what editor would let that stuff fly nowadays? he was pubbed by a university house, traditionally prone to printing unreadable, opiniated rantings of self described 'experts'.
I think he's out of print for a reason- unreadable! what editor would let that stuff fly nowadays? he was pubbed by a university house, traditionally prone to printing unreadable, opiniated rantings of self described 'experts'.
Although Hurst's book was right out on the shelves there in Powells. (great place BTW... got one of their red and black T shirts and a few other books the last time we were there)
#53
Bye Bye
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gone gone gone
Posts: 3,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by Ben Franklin
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
__________________
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
#55
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by bmike
The definition of the VC subforum on BF is arguing about the same things over and over expecting different results.
That said I have seen opinions and ideas of some forum member change over time.
I know mine has.
I may need to buy this JF book after all, so I can participate with knowledge in debate about this character and his ideas. Its folks like Bek, randya and sbhikes making me think I ought to read it, not its proponents. They are the ones making the sale.
Al
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 2,968
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Amazon has EF for $27.74. and also a glowing review by our own helmut head.
"I found this book to be nothing short of a godsend. With over 30 years of cycling experience, I felt comfortable and competent cycling in traffic, at least in most circumstances. But this book was recommended so many times, I decided to read it anyway. At first, it didn't seem like a big deal. It all made sense, and seemed to describe how I already rode, perhaps with a few subtle differences.
But as I began to incorporate these subtle changes in my own riding the results were amazing. My relationship with car drivers completely changed. Instead of interacting with them once in a while -- only when necessary -- I became an integrated participant with the rest of traffic.
It is impossible to explain in words how just subtle lane positioning changes, and a new attitude, can make such a radical difference in one's cycling experience in traffic. But consider what Forester conveys in this simple statement: "Between intersections, position yourself according to speed; at intersections, position yourself according to destination". You may think you do this already, but based on the fact that I almost never see any cyclists do this consistently, I can almost assure you that you don't. And I'm not talking about kids and "recreational cyclists". I'm talking about experienced commuters, and experienced club riders and racers. Only a very small percentages of cyclists actually behave like a (slow) vehicle driver consistently. Much of the time on the road is spent in space "left over" by motorists, riding too far to the right, not positioning at intersections according to destination (THINK about what that means), etc. etc.
"Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles" - John Forester
This book is for you if any of the following is true:
* You want to learn to LOVE to ride your bike in traffic, not just tolerate it.
* You're tired of motorists passing you and then cutting you off when they turn in front of you, or motorists coming from the other direction cutting you off when they turn in front of you (believe it or not, if you read this book you will learn how to stop them from ever doing this to you again!).
* You are comfortable riding in bike lanes passing stopped or slow car traffic on their right.
* You think that you should assume that you're invisible to motorists, and ride accordingly.
* You don't think you should position yourself away from the edge of the road, often in the path of motorists coming from behind, in order to be more visible and predictable.
* You don't feel safe riding in traffic.
* Your greatest fear is that you will be hit from the rear.
* You don't know that almost all bike-car collisions are caused by, or could have been prevented, by the cyclist.
* You feel safer riding on shoulders and in bike lanes than "out" in the regular traffic lanes.
* You're rusty on what the laws are regarding cycling.
* You believe the best thing that can be done for cycling is building more bike lanes and bike paths.
* You've never taken any courses on cycling in traffic (like LAB's Road 1 course - see bikeleague.org).
* You don't believe cyclists have the same rights on the road as do motor vehicle drivers.
* You ride on the side of the road opposing traffic (like a pedestrian should walk).
* You ride on sidewalks.
* You value your life and want to ride your bike accordingly.
This is not the perfect book. Forester does tend to ramble, and some of the advice I don't agree with (like you don't really need a rear light at night, just a rear red reflector and a good front light). Also, some of the material, like on equipment and racing, is dated. But the chapters on riding in traffic are timeless and priceless, and so TRANSFORMATIONAL that they alone make this a 5-star book.
"I found this book to be nothing short of a godsend. With over 30 years of cycling experience, I felt comfortable and competent cycling in traffic, at least in most circumstances. But this book was recommended so many times, I decided to read it anyway. At first, it didn't seem like a big deal. It all made sense, and seemed to describe how I already rode, perhaps with a few subtle differences.
But as I began to incorporate these subtle changes in my own riding the results were amazing. My relationship with car drivers completely changed. Instead of interacting with them once in a while -- only when necessary -- I became an integrated participant with the rest of traffic.
It is impossible to explain in words how just subtle lane positioning changes, and a new attitude, can make such a radical difference in one's cycling experience in traffic. But consider what Forester conveys in this simple statement: "Between intersections, position yourself according to speed; at intersections, position yourself according to destination". You may think you do this already, but based on the fact that I almost never see any cyclists do this consistently, I can almost assure you that you don't. And I'm not talking about kids and "recreational cyclists". I'm talking about experienced commuters, and experienced club riders and racers. Only a very small percentages of cyclists actually behave like a (slow) vehicle driver consistently. Much of the time on the road is spent in space "left over" by motorists, riding too far to the right, not positioning at intersections according to destination (THINK about what that means), etc. etc.
"Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles" - John Forester
This book is for you if any of the following is true:
* You want to learn to LOVE to ride your bike in traffic, not just tolerate it.
* You're tired of motorists passing you and then cutting you off when they turn in front of you, or motorists coming from the other direction cutting you off when they turn in front of you (believe it or not, if you read this book you will learn how to stop them from ever doing this to you again!).
* You are comfortable riding in bike lanes passing stopped or slow car traffic on their right.
* You think that you should assume that you're invisible to motorists, and ride accordingly.
* You don't think you should position yourself away from the edge of the road, often in the path of motorists coming from behind, in order to be more visible and predictable.
* You don't feel safe riding in traffic.
* Your greatest fear is that you will be hit from the rear.
* You don't know that almost all bike-car collisions are caused by, or could have been prevented, by the cyclist.
* You feel safer riding on shoulders and in bike lanes than "out" in the regular traffic lanes.
* You're rusty on what the laws are regarding cycling.
* You believe the best thing that can be done for cycling is building more bike lanes and bike paths.
* You've never taken any courses on cycling in traffic (like LAB's Road 1 course - see bikeleague.org).
* You don't believe cyclists have the same rights on the road as do motor vehicle drivers.
* You ride on the side of the road opposing traffic (like a pedestrian should walk).
* You ride on sidewalks.
* You value your life and want to ride your bike accordingly.
This is not the perfect book. Forester does tend to ramble, and some of the advice I don't agree with (like you don't really need a rear light at night, just a rear red reflector and a good front light). Also, some of the material, like on equipment and racing, is dated. But the chapters on riding in traffic are timeless and priceless, and so TRANSFORMATIONAL that they alone make this a 5-star book.
__________________
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
#57
Bye Bye
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gone gone gone
Posts: 3,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by noisebeam
This is no different than any other sub-BF, or any other internet forum for that matter.
l
l
__________________
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
#58
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by bmike
Quite possibly, but over in the LD forum where I usually hang out we tend to be a little more helpful to each other. (with exception of a few crusty, grumpy types)
Al
#59
Bye Bye
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gone gone gone
Posts: 3,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Right, but I'm sure, even with very casual reading, you know the hot buttons to press in most of the other more heavily visited forums.
Al
Al
[edit: i forgot titanium, anatomic bars, seated vs standing climbing, ...]
__________________
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
#60
Part-time epistemologist
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
You can try fawning and obsequiousness to see if you can get a responsive answer to any criticism of his methods or conclusions and see if it works better.
Anyway, this is silly. I hope that you have better things to do and can move on. I find this unproductive and distasteful. If somehow I insulted you along the way, then I apologize. If what I write is offensive, then please place me on ignore.
-G
#61
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,965
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
1,042 Posts
Originally Posted by John Forester
It is easy to observe and to measure the traffic behavior of cyclists on the roadways. Beginning in the late 1970s, I have observed and measured the behavior of some hundreds of cyclists. My criterion for rating is shown on the Forester Cycling Proficiency Score Sheet, shown on my website and in the Effective Cyclist Instructor's Manual. The traffic criteria are all concerned with obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. Those cyclists range from randomly selected general population cyclists in various "bike friendly" cities to club cyclists in much the same cities. The average performance for the cycling populations of those cities was uniformly flunking.
All that the above observations and measurements amount to are just Forester's arbitrary rating scheme, period. A rating scheme which when included with a quarter is worth exactly 25 cents, given its correlation with nothing. Except maybe Forester's definition of cycling skill which is also correlated with nothing except Forester Brand Reasonable Assumptions.
#63
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,965
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
1,042 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Sometimes to fight a bully, you need a bully on your side. Right?
Others do not allow themselves to be backed down with bogus claims of science/engineering hocus pocus that consists mostly of ranting, insults and over-the-top sophistry.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 04-26-07 at 03:58 PM.
#64
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,965
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
1,042 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
Nah, it's still available on Amazon...
#65
I drink your MILKSHAKE
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 15,061
Bikes: 2003 Specialized Rockhopper FSR Comp, 1999 Specialized Hardrock Comp FS, 1971 Schwinn Varsity
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by sbhikes
I might just put this whole forum on ignore. Let the John Forester VCers have a big group hug here where they can be sequestered from normal society. Have you noticed that there have actually been some interesting topics in the A&S main forum lately?
Originally Posted by John Forester
How many times must I repeat myself. What I write is in accordance with traffic-engineering knowledge, with the accident statistics, with the laws. What you people believe is contrary to all of these, and you believe it with such extreme passion. You are where the cult is, not on the vehicular-cycling side.
Originally Posted by John Forester
"You people" is that some sort of discriminatory statement?
Besides, I recognized L. Ron Hubbard for the idiot he has been in 1949, or whenever he made his first publication in Amazing. I didn't predict, though, that he would become a world-wide cult leader; he was just too absurd. But then, as I have been pointing out to you all, absurdity doesn't prevent a cult from forming, it just makes it a cult rather than an engineering discipline.
Besides, I recognized L. Ron Hubbard for the idiot he has been in 1949, or whenever he made his first publication in Amazing. I didn't predict, though, that he would become a world-wide cult leader; he was just too absurd. But then, as I have been pointing out to you all, absurdity doesn't prevent a cult from forming, it just makes it a cult rather than an engineering discipline.
Originally Posted by ken cummings
Folks, It is my understanding that Hubbard distanced himself from the Scientologists a number of years ago.
Originally Posted by ken cummings
It seems that Hubbard, as a good science fiction writer, had enough science in him to overcome some of the odder beliefs.
Originally Posted by ken cummings
Tarring Hubbard with the Scientology brush then attacking Forester by comparing him with Hubbard may be logically inconsistent.
Originally Posted by ken cummings
Helmet Head and Mr. Forester may be hard heads and challenge some of your belief systems but it does not make them lunies.
Helmet Head and John Forester - welcome to my ignore list. I-Like-To-Bike welcome back from the ignore list
Last edited by Raiyn; 04-26-07 at 04:01 PM.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 2,968
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Blue Order
What a tool...
__________________
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
#67
Banned.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Posts: 4,020
Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
that is unnecessary, Galen
#68
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,965
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
1,042 Posts
Originally Posted by rando
an embarrassingly fawning tool, too.
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 2,968
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Poll...Poll...Poll...Poll!!!
__________________
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
#70
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,965
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
1,042 Posts
Originally Posted by galen_52657
But the truth must be told....
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Raiyn
[color=blue]
Just as I recognized John Forester for the idiot he is back in 1999, or whenever it was when I first saw more than his basic tenants on the web. I didn't predict, though, that he would become a world-wide cult leader; he was just too absurd. But then, absurdity doesn't prevent a cult from forming, it just makes it a cult rather than a "engineering discipline" as so claimed.
Really? When was this? Do you have any documentation?
Or to blindly follow the tenants of VC without acknowledging that most drivers won't understand that a "look back" signals intent to turn. .
Just as I recognized John Forester for the idiot he is back in 1999, or whenever it was when I first saw more than his basic tenants on the web. I didn't predict, though, that he would become a world-wide cult leader; he was just too absurd. But then, absurdity doesn't prevent a cult from forming, it just makes it a cult rather than a "engineering discipline" as so claimed.
Really? When was this? Do you have any documentation?
Or to blindly follow the tenants of VC without acknowledging that most drivers won't understand that a "look back" signals intent to turn. .
The claim that is made regarding looking back is that it signals the desire to move laterally, into another line of traffic. The accuracy of that statement is easily determined, and has been determined over a span of years. Turning the head to look back convinces a very large proportion of motorists who are in a position to slow down, to slow down and let you in. The proportion of drivers who do so is so high that it is reasonable to conclude that most drivers understand the signal, even if some of them either cannot or will not accede to your request.
Many years ago there was a study made of this, in New York state, as I remember, in which motorists were shown pictures of cyclists with left arm extended and other pictures of cyclists with head turned to look back. A high proportion of these motorists were more confident about the intent of the cyclists with head turned than were confident about the intent of the cyclists with arm extended.
#72
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
I had an experience this AM of making a merge from BL to outer lane (eventually crossing another to get to LTOL)
I saw in mirror a long line of vehicles. No gaps, but a early in line small one I needed to negotate into. I glanced back quickly, I signaled with arm, no response, again several seconds no response. The only way to get driver to yield was to stop signalling and solidly look back at them.
Al
I saw in mirror a long line of vehicles. No gaps, but a early in line small one I needed to negotate into. I glanced back quickly, I signaled with arm, no response, again several seconds no response. The only way to get driver to yield was to stop signalling and solidly look back at them.
Al
#74
Sumanitu taka owaci
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 8,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
LBM prefers his truth covered in sugar.
__________________
No worries
No worries
Last edited by LittleBigMan; 04-26-07 at 05:53 PM.
#75
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,965
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
1,042 Posts
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
I don't give a rat's ass if people believe what you just said.