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Cyclist Inferiority - discussion

Old 04-29-07, 08:06 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
The Nazis are alive and well my foolish friend. And just like slavery, the Nazis were capable of making their victims think of themselves as inferior.
lovely.

are you taking your meds?


because I'm taking mine!


Last edited by rando; 04-30-07 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 04-29-07, 08:14 PM
  #27  
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https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8938147/site/newsweek/

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16995297/
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Old 04-29-07, 08:26 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
This is a very odd post.

You say bicyclists do not and should not have an EQUAL right to use the roadways because we are in the minority. You state this not as an explanation, but as a justification, as if minorities should not have equal rights simply because they are in the minority. Be it sex, or race or culture or sexual orientation or mode of transportation, do you not recognize that this denial of equal rights occurs when the minority is seen to be inferior to the majority? After all, Camry drivers are in a minority too (the majority does not drive Camry's), but they are not seen to be inferior, so they have equal rights.

And then it gets even more strange.
Sorry dude, this is the world AS IT IS, not some utopia you cooked up in your mind. Cyclists are not equal users of the road, if we were, you wouldn't have anything to 'advocate'.
BTW 'should not' are your words...I said 'do not', as in reflecting the world as it is. I guess putting words in other's mouths is your idea of 'honest debate'.
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Old 04-29-07, 08:28 PM
  #29  
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The funny thing is, both of your links went to strengthen the point I made previously. The links refer to "a group whos beginnings can be traced back to the Nazi movement" as well as "neo-Nazis". Thanks for bringing these links into the discussion.

OK, I'm done for real now. Got a hockey game to watch and a woman to take care of
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Old 04-29-07, 08:29 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Plenty of that going on Chip. May not be 'official' policy, but I do remember a history lesson about the Nazis.... plenty of them still around in one form or another...

Then you have religious bigots.... it's really quite common for one group to think of themselves as superior to another.....
You mean like vc zealots do? Smile and say touche.
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Old 04-29-07, 09:15 PM
  #31  
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"Bless me, Father, I struggle with feelings of superiority"

...to motorists...



I really do...

For example, I dare that guy who thought I held him up and gunned it past me on that hill, spewing smoke from his Smithsonian engine, to get out and race me up the hill on foot...

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Old 04-29-07, 10:59 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by chipcom
There is no policy of cyclist inferiority....this is a term adopted by zealots to sell their wacky theories and political viewpoints.

The simple realities are:

1. Motor vehicles are the primary users of our roadways, as well as the primary method of transportation in this country - like it or not.
2. While bicycles have a right to use the roadways, that right does not make them EQUAL users of the roadways - bicycles are not the majority users, nor do they share the same characteristics as majority users (motor vehicles).

That is just plain reality...trying to claim it is some kind of inferiority thing is the same as claiming we have a policy of inferiority towards the handicapped, race, religion, gender, etc. Do you consider the physically handicapped, other races, other religions, other genders, etc. 'inferior' HH? Do you consider efforts to ensure that the differences between those groups and the majority are mitigated in some way to be policies of inferiority?

If bicycles ever become the primary mode of transportation and the majority users of the roadways, policy will be designed to accomodate them, rather than motor vehicles. Until then, our reality is what it is and not some nefarious, discriminatory plot by the infamous 'them'.
Let's start over, shall we?

This is not as odd as what I thought I read the first time. I agree with your fundamental point.

I'm all for facilities that actually accomodate for the differences. For example, I see how traffic signal sensors that detect bikes as well as cars do that. I'm all for that. But I don't see how most bike lanes accomodate for such differences.

On long intersectionless stretches... okay. Then a bike lane serves the same purpose as a slow truck lane. But, again, this is an advantage for drivers of faster vehicles Even a well-designed bike lane on an long intersectionless stretch of roadways is not a facility that benefits bicyclists any more than a slow truck lane is a facility that benefits truckers.

But on sections of roads with intersections (no matter how minor) where no traffic engineer would ever consider putting a slow truck lane (no matter how steep or long the climb - there are no truck lanes on San Francisco's Filmore street, for example), bike lanes also have no legitimate function.

The only justification I see for bike lanes is a cyclist inferiority perspective. And by that I mean a perspective that considers the RIGHTS of cyclists to be inferior to the RIGHTS of vehicle drivers.
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Old 04-30-07, 05:33 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
On long intersectionless stretches... okay. Then a bike lane serves the same purpose as a slow truck lane. But, again, this is an advantage for drivers of faster vehicles Even a well-designed bike lane on an long intersectionless stretch of roadways is not a facility that benefits bicyclists any more than a slow truck lane is a facility that benefits truckers.
And do you see anything wrong with giving drivers of faster vehicles an advantage such as this? Seriously, why must the advantage always be for the cyclist? Just because we are in the minority? We have enough advantages over motorized traffic, such as being able to avoid traffic jams. But there would be at least one advantage I see for cyclists with such a lane. The existance of the lane alone would be a reminder to motorists that cyclists could be present. If there weren't enough cyclists using the road in the first place, then the bike lane would have not been put there. So the fact that it is there is a reminder to them to be cautious.

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
But on sections of roads with intersections (no matter how minor) where no traffic engineer would ever consider putting a slow truck lane (no matter how steep or long the climb - there are no truck lanes on San Francisco's Filmore street, for example), bike lanes also have no legitimate function.
Well, I don't know the street you used for an example, but I have to disagree with you on this point. The existence of the bike lane alone is a function in and of itself, it is a constant reminder to motorists that cyclists use this road enough that the city installed a bike lane. I know around here a bike lane would allow me (barring lane splitting) to pass 100 to 300 feet of traffic at plenty of stop lights on my way to work every day. It would also cut back on the "get off the road" and "get on the sidewalk" hollars from cars. It would also allow me a more comfortable lane to travel in because, let's face it, sharing a lane with 60mph traffic that is in a hurry to get home to watch American Idol is not fun, so I use the shoulder, which is cluttered and not smooth. A bike lane would be cared for as part of the road in this example and not just a place to pile up snow. This is just one example.

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The only justification I see for bike lanes is a cyclist inferiority perspective. And by that I mean a perspective that considers the RIGHTS of cyclists to be inferior to the RIGHTS of vehicle drivers.
Or, you could read what I just wrote about the lane being a constant reminder and a more comfortable place to travel. Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't as well. Maybe you should think about what other people might want before you start preaching against it. It seems clear to me that more people want bike lanes/paths than not. And this is pretty much how our country is run... it is a democracy you know. Bike lanes will not take away our rights to use the road either, people who think that are being asenine.
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Old 04-30-07, 06:31 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
On long intersectionless stretches... okay. Then a bike lane serves the same purpose as a slow truck lane. But, again, this is an advantage for drivers of faster vehicles even a well-designed bike lane on an long intersectionless stretch of roadways is not a facility that benefits bicyclists any more than a slow truck lane is a facility that benefits truckers.
You have got to be kiding me, right? I recently bicycled 20 miles down a 65mph+ 2-lane route (60mph posted) and there was a nice 6 foot shoulder. If that shoulder did not exist, there is no way in hell it would have been safe to take the lane - that shoulder is a HUGE advantage for bicyclists. Do you ever ride in more dangerous conditions then to the grocery store and back?!
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Old 04-30-07, 06:34 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
You have got to be kiding me, right? I recently bicycled 20 miles down a 65mph+ 2-lane route (60mph posted) and there was a nice 6 foot shoulder. If that sholder did not exist, there is no way in hell it would have been safe to take the lane. Do you ever ride in more dangerous conditions then to the grocery store and back?!
From my understanding he only rides in those rolling sausage fests called pacelines.
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Old 04-30-07, 06:48 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Let's start over, shall we?

This is not as odd as what I thought I read the first time. I agree with your fundamental point.

I'm all for facilities that actually accomodate for the differences. For example, I see how traffic signal sensors that detect bikes as well as cars do that. I'm all for that. But I don't see how most bike lanes accomodate for such differences.

On long intersectionless stretches... okay. Then a bike lane serves the same purpose as a slow truck lane. But, again, this is an advantage for drivers of faster vehicles Even a well-designed bike lane on an long intersectionless stretch of roadways is not a facility that benefits bicyclists any more than a slow truck lane is a facility that benefits truckers.

But on sections of roads with intersections (no matter how minor) where no traffic engineer would ever consider putting a slow truck lane (no matter how steep or long the climb - there are no truck lanes on San Francisco's Filmore street, for example), bike lanes also have no legitimate function.

The only justification I see for bike lanes is a cyclist inferiority perspective. And by that I mean a perspective that considers the RIGHTS of cyclists to be inferior to the RIGHTS of vehicle drivers.
Where, in my post, did I mention anything about bike lanes? You ask a question concerning a policy of cyclist inferiority, then turn a response addressing that subject into a bike lane rant...after pwning yourself on your original, now edited response.

My point is simple - we all have an equal right to use the roadways - equality of opportunity, but the vehicles that use those roadways are not equal. Besides the fact that the physical & operational differences between vehicles are pretty obvious...the other fact is that motor vehicles are the majority and PRIMARY users of the roadways, thus the roadways are designed with an obvious bias towards making motor vehicle traffic fast, efficient and safe () at the expense of the minority vehicles. That is not an inferiority policy, it's just plain run-of-the-mill SOP public policy in a democratic republic. Build for the majority, accomdate the minority if possible. The main issue in this forum is the HOW of accomodating the minority.
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Old 04-30-07, 07:30 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
You have got to be kiding me, right? I recently bicycled 20 miles down a 65mph+ 2-lane route (60mph posted) and there was a nice 6 foot shoulder. If that shoulder did not exist, there is no way in hell it would have been safe to take the lane - that shoulder is a HUGE advantage for bicyclists. Do you ever ride in more dangerous conditions then to the grocery store and back?!
To support 65mph speeds, it must have some pretty long intersectionless stretches, or at least, very little entering, exiting, and crossing traffic.

I don't disagree with wide paved shoulders as bicycling-related improvements on such high speed roads with few junctions, particularly in less urban areas. My only technical problems that I experience with such facilities is debris (unpaved driveways generate a lot of it on such roads where I live) and the lack of extra space to the left of right-turn-only lanes at intersections.

Last edited by sggoodri; 04-30-07 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 04-30-07, 07:43 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
To support 65mph speeds, it must have some pretty long intersectionless stretches, or at least, very little entering, exiting, and crossing traffic.

I don't disagree with wide paved shoulders as bicycling-related improvements on such high speed roads with few junctions, particularly in less urban areas. My only technical problems that I experience with such facilities is debris (unpaved driveways generate a lot of it on such roads where I live) and the lack of extra space to the left of right-turn-only lanes at intersections.
How long do they have to be? Here in my area there is a 3 mile stretch of surface street that runs a Marine Air Base... parallel to that is a very wide freeway. Yet the 4 lane surface street which about 4 intersections along it's stretch is a 65MPH non-freeway.

It is "Kearny Villa road" in the center of this map: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=b...,0.159988&om=1

Note the proximity to the freeway... now ask yourself... why does this road also need freeway speeds?
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Old 04-30-07, 07:43 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
To support 65mph speeds, it must have some pretty long intersectionless stretches, or at least, very little entering, exiting, and crossing traffic.
It did, was route 199 in Williamsburg, VA. More like an interstate with on and off only every many several miles, where it did slow down for a stop light, but lucky for me, no signs preventing me from riding it when I entered, cause it's the only reasonable way to get to where I need to get from time to time.

There are several roads where I live that are shorter then that one and get to 65+ regularly with no shoulders, those are not that fun - unless I'm in a combative mood , but they only have posted speeds of 55

An edit*
If you ever get to SE Virginia, ride from Protsmouth to Roanoke on route 460. Almost 400 miles, 95% 65+ mph with shoulders. Interstate speeds are rather common on non-interstates, but are MUCH safer then city roads to bicycle on when they have the 6 foot shoulders - debri or no debis - you just have to pay attention while you ride, no daydreaming.

Last edited by natelutkjohn; 04-30-07 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 04-30-07, 08:57 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by genec
Note the proximity to the freeway... now ask yourself... why does this road also need freeway speeds?
I like city streets with <45 mph speeds, rural roads with light traffic and who cares what posted speed limit, and freeways that I won't use, but siphon traffic away from the ones I do.

I dislike freeway-like surface streets that provide important local access but appear designed to support high speeds with high traffic volumes. These combine high speeds with turning and exiting/entering traffic, forcing transitions between speed positioning and destination positioning under the least pleasant conditions. Wide pavement helps between junctions but at the junctions the pavement never seems to be in the right spot, and merging isn't fun regardless.

I have two choices of routes to and from work. One is on a 45 mph 5-lane arterial with 11' outside lanes. The other is a longer route on pleasant residential streets, but to get to it I need to ride for a bit on a 55 mph freeway-wanna-be through an interchange with free-flowing entrance and exit lanes. I don't have a clear favorite between the two. I would prefer the interchange have wider outside through lanes rather than the 12' lanes studded with reflectors on the lane lines, or be designed with intersections or sharper-radius entrance lanes to slow down the entering cars. I'd also prefer the arterial to have 15' lanes in the 45 mph sections. I currently ride in the center of the 11' lane the whole way, but this seems to create more turbulence on the long 45 mph sections between signals than on the more urban 35 mph sections.

-Steve
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Old 04-30-07, 12:38 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Where, in my post, did I mention anything about bike lanes?
Where, in my post, did I mention anything about you mentioning anything about bike lanes?

I simply used bike lanes to help explain why I thought your point was irrelevant to the issues raised in the OP.

You ask a question concerning a policy of cyclist inferiority, then turn a response addressing that subject into a bike lane rant...after pwning yourself on your original, now edited response.

My point is simple - we all have an equal right to use the roadways - equality of opportunity, but the vehicles that use those roadways are not equal. Besides the fact that the physical & operational differences between vehicles are pretty obvious...the other fact is that motor vehicles are the majority and PRIMARY users of the roadways, thus the roadways are designed with an obvious bias towards making motor vehicle traffic fast, efficient and safe () at the expense of the minority vehicles. That is not an inferiority policy, it's just plain run-of-the-mill SOP public policy in a democratic republic. Build for the majority, accomdate the minority if possible. The main issue in this forum is the HOW of accomodating the minority.
How does any of this address anything stated in the OP?

Of course there are differences. There are differences between men and women too. But just like there are ways to recognize and appreciate ("Vive la difference!") the differences between men and women with or without viewing one sex as being inferior to the other or not, there are ways to recognize the differences between bicyclists and motor vehicle drivers with and without viewing one or the other as inferior to the other.

In both cases, emphasizing the differences in contexts where the differences don't matter is a way of implying an inferiority. That's what I'm talking about in this thread. Not about whether there are differences or not. Of course there are.

Mentioning menstrual cycles is generally avoided in board rooms, for good reason. For the same reason, the relative lack of power/acceleration/cage-protection of a cyclist should not be relevant at intersections, and if these characteristics -- which are obvious differences -- are mentioned in the context of how cyclists should behave or how they should be treated at intersections, that's implying an inferiority with respect to cyclist rights.
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Old 04-30-07, 12:45 PM
  #42  
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Justice consists of treating people equally to the extent they are equal and unequally to the extent they are unequal.


If I have cyclist inferiority complex because I don't want to ride on a crowded busy 40 + mph street, then I must also have swimmer's inferiority complex because I dont want to swim in the middle of the lake where all the boaters and ski jets run.
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Old 05-01-07, 07:06 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
"Bless me, Father, I struggle with feelings of superiority"

...to motorists...



I really do...
I really do, too. Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't sense people generally looking down on me because I ride a bicycle (at least not people who interact with me on a personal level). People can't comprehend my use of a bicycle as a primary means of transportation because it's not anything they have ever experienced, but they don't act superior; more often, they seem awed or amazed.

Bicyclists who think society discriminates against cyclists as human beings to any significant extent live in a different world than I do. Those VC extremists who make comparisons of the treatment of bicyclist to Jim Crow define themselves as total crackpots. There is no comparison (the "bike lanes are Jim Crow" argument is one of the most assinine arguments in the history of the world - truly - and I have a distinct negative opinion of anyone who stoops to making it -- scumbags are scumbags, and they discredit any rational argument they might have).

I honestly believe the bicycle is a superior vehicle to the automobile in many ways. One problem I have with dogmatic VC-ists is that they seem to want me to ride my bicycle as if it were a car, and thereby not take advatage of some of the versatility a bicycle has.
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Old 05-01-07, 07:17 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Do you agree we have a policy of "cyclist inferiority" in the U.S.?
No.

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Do you agree we have a culture of "cyclist inferiority"?
No.

Bike lanes aren't Jim Crow and they aren't a plot of the Nazis.

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Does one produce the other? Or is it a chicken egg situation where they feed off each other? How do we break out of the cycle?
Stop believing ridiculous VC-ist propaganda, for one thing. VC lunacy feeds off itself. This thread started with mental deficiencies -- now we've had the Nazi card played. Segregated drinking fountains can't be far behind, followed by a lame denial that any offense was intended.

And Forester claims that those who disagree with him base their disagreement on emotionalism and that VC-ist arguments are rational -- what a hoot! VC-ists are among the most shameless fear-mongerers I've ever encounterd. VC-ist arguments are mostly emotional, not rational.

Forester's wacky cyclist inferiority mumbo jumbo is bunch of hooey he concocted because he couldn't (and evidently still can't) comprehend how anyone could possibly oppose having small group of self-righteous, self-appointed, Forester-believing know-it-all safety nannys dictate what is in the best interests of bicyclists. Forester apparently believes that the general public (that seems to be basically anyone who doesn't bow down to Forester's infinite wisdom) are too stupid to determine for themselves what is in their best interest. You see, Forester and the True Believers know everything. The unwashed masses of cyclists are mentally deficient idiots with low IQs and reading comprehension problems.

That, my friend, is the essence of VC-ist philosophy whether that is what Forester intended or not (and yet VC-ists bristle at being called elitist).

I better quit before I say something sarcastic.

As a life-long rules of the road bicyclist, it bothers me that vehicular cycling has become so closely identified with Forester's wacky psychological and social theories and his political agenda.

Despite all his knowledge, Forester got it wrong.

Very, very wrong on a very fundamental level.

Last edited by JRA; 05-01-07 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 05-01-07, 07:28 AM
  #45  
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Breaking news....cyclist inferiority embodied in law enforcement....

Yesterday was a beautiful day here in Towson. Perfect for cycling with the minor exception of a 20 MPH steady wind out of the northwest....

Anyway, I was riding home from my son's baseball game, heading east on Towsontown Blvd., just east of Osler Drive when I came up behind another cyclist. This cyclist was wearing a bright yellow tee-shirt that said "Police" across the back, had a handgun, mace and handcuffs attached to his belt and was... riding in the gutter! Actually in the 18" concrete gutter..... This road is four lanes with a center turn lane (painted in long after the road was constructed so the lanes are quite narrow - maybe 9' wide)..... as I came up beside him I said...'my God man get out of the gutter...' He just shook his head as if to say 'no'....He was a young guy, somewhat plump and I think actually an employee of Towson University as opposed to a Baltimore County Police Officer but still.....
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Old 05-01-07, 07:54 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Do you agree we have a policy of "cyclist inferiority" in the U.S.?
No, I think we have a policy of "motorist superiority" in the US... and it starts with the thinking "the car is king" and along with that is the thinking "what's good for General Motors is good for the country.(1)" It also goes along with the thinking that we should send boys to war to defend oil resources in foreign lands, because clearly "we are addicted to oil... (2)"

Forester is right, in that this country does have a problem... he just gave it the wrong name.

"A chicken in every pot, and a car in every garage... (3)"

Need I say more?

Name the sources... anyone, anyone... Bueller?

(1)

(2)

(3)
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Old 05-01-07, 07:55 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by John Forester
Certainly, I am not a psychologist...
That's obvious.

I'd posit that you aren't much of a social scientist, either.

You might have chosen to stick to what you know but, obviously, that was not your choice.
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Old 05-01-07, 08:02 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Breaking news....cyclist inferiority embodied in law enforcement....

when I came up behind another cyclist. This cyclist was wearing a bright yellow tee-shirt that said "Police" across the back, had a handgun, mace and handcuffs attached to his belt and was... riding in the gutter! Actually in the 18" concrete gutter..... This road is four lanes with a center turn lane (painted in long after the road was constructed so the lanes are quite narrow - maybe 9' wide)..... as I came up beside him I said...'my God man get out of the gutter...'
Doncha mean breaking news... Smug cyclist doesn't mind his own business and mouths off to another cyclist with gratuitous advice. Mouthy nanny is lucky, and the cyclist doesn't get annoyed (or is restrained by good manners) and does not respond with tools available.
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Old 05-01-07, 08:05 AM
  #49  
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BTW how do I know Forester got it wrong... well he specifically cites the problem as a cyclist issue... however, pedestrians also react to the presence of cars ("cars," not motorists... cars are seen as impersonal behemoths... the driver inside is often not seen well enough to "humanize" the vehicle). Peds are often seen running across streets where they have a clear walk signal. Motorcyclists are also treated poorly and act in reaction to "cars." So clearly the syndrome... is not "cyclist inferiority," but "motorist superiority" or worse: "automotive superiority," the latter more the case, due to the dehumanizing nature of the auto."
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Old 05-01-07, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Doncha mean breaking news... Smug cyclist doesn't mind his own business and mouths off to another cyclist with gratuitous advice. Mouthy nanny is lucky, and the cyclist doesn't get annoyed (or is restrained by good manners) and does not respond with tools available.
Just looking out for my fellow man. Believe me he (and you) could use a lot of help....
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