Is this VC?
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
What if you are a risk-averse individual who doesn't feel it's worth the hassle? I mean you know you have a right to the road. You really want to ride your bike. But add all that motorist harassment and threats of actual violence on top of your already stressful work day and what is the point?
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
When I ride near the Marine (Miramar and Pendleton) and Navy (Coronado) bases in San Diego I don't notice any significant difference in treatment. A lot more motorcycles though...
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Originally Posted by John Forester
I suppose that feeling yourself to be risk-averse is part of the discomfort. The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment. When you recognize that the harassing motorist has far less traffic knowledge than you have and is (dare I use this word in this forum?) ignorant and uncouth, the amount of discomfort is much less.
The first time you react to honking or yelling as a good thing -- that they're letting you know that they see you -- and so you smile, nod, and/or wave back , in a genuinely friendly manner, then you will know you are starting to understand, and that you're beginning to feel like a driver, with equal rights, inwardly, which is the hallmark of a vehicular cyclist.
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Originally Posted by pj7
Of you, Gene, and Steve; two of you live in a place with a very large and very long standing bicycling community.
Where I live, it's a car centric culture and mind set. Everyone and everything here (Detroit) depends on the American auto industry. For me, it is definately a location type thing.
In fact, the last person who said something verbally to me that I could comprehend eluded to: me, on my bicycle, as being part of the problem that the American auto industry is failing.
Granted that is just one person, but I'm sure there are others out there who would or have jumped on the same bandwagon.
Sure, cyclists fare best when they act like and are treated like operators of a vehicle. But no matter how much I act like one, I rarely get treated like one. So I have to follow a different path for safety and convenience.
Where I live, it's a car centric culture and mind set. Everyone and everything here (Detroit) depends on the American auto industry. For me, it is definately a location type thing.
In fact, the last person who said something verbally to me that I could comprehend eluded to: me, on my bicycle, as being part of the problem that the American auto industry is failing.
Granted that is just one person, but I'm sure there are others out there who would or have jumped on the same bandwagon.
Sure, cyclists fare best when they act like and are treated like operators of a vehicle. But no matter how much I act like one, I rarely get treated like one. So I have to follow a different path for safety and convenience.
As far as Detroit... perhaps if they saw beyond the Hummer, and tried to actually build an economical practical car...
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Originally Posted by John Forester
I suppose that feeling yourself to be risk-averse is part of the discomfort. The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment. When you recognize that the harassing motorist has far less traffic knowledge than you have and is (dare I use this word in this forum?) ignorant and uncouth, the amount of discomfort is much less.
As vehicular cycling advocates, our goal is for law enforcement officers to respond to a cyclist's complaint of harassment with "it's our job to help protect your right to use the road" and not "you should probably go ride your bike somewhere else - how about the park?" I think police can mitigate the attempts of some motorists to instill in cyclists an inferior sense of entitlement - or, they can exacerbate it. This in turn can affect cyclists' willingness to use convenient routes, and ultimately affect the popularity of cycling transportation.
Last edited by sggoodri; 05-07-07 at 02:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by John Forester
I suppose that feeling yourself to be risk-averse is part of the discomfort. The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment. When you recognize that the harassing motorist has far less traffic knowledge than you have and is (dare I use this word in this forum?) ignorant and uncouth, the amount of discomfort is much less.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
While there will probably always be room for improvement in cultural attitudes towards cyclists on the road, the best antidote I know of is for the cyclist to consistently behave in a vehicular manner. It's no panacea - you will still get yelled and honked at - but not nearly as often.
My experience has proven, time & again, I am better off & get honked at, yelled at, et al less when I behave in an adaptive manner, or AC instead of strictly VC in accordance with yours or JF's doctrine & method of advised riding. I can only apply this in the areas I've ridden bike in.
They include:
Iowa: the area I live in, central Iowa, areas I have ridden in on RAGBRAI since 1998.
South Dakota: the area I near, Sioux Falls, the Black Hills area, Yankton area, Vermillion area.
Wyoming: area around Devils Tower.
Nebraska: area I live near.
Hawaii: area in & around Hononlulu.
Illinois: the area in & around De Pue & La Salle/Peru.
I would NEVER presume to claim Adaptive Cycling would apply in any area except the areas I have ridden in. But you seem to have no problem making a general statment that VC would apply to to all areas.
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Originally Posted by John Forester
I suppose that feeling yourself to be risk-averse is part of the discomfort. The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment. When you recognize that the harassing motorist has far less traffic knowledge than you have and is (dare I use this word in this forum?) ignorant and uncouth, the amount of discomfort is much less.
John before you state another term will you please give us a list of these with their definitions? Seriously it sounds like you're making this crap up as you go along.
Correction here is what I found on risk averse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion
I am not sure if this is what JF means by it though. John please explain how this apply's to cycling. How in the hell does economics, finance & psychology apply in the context in which Diane is talking about here? Are you a financial, economics or even a psychology expert? Do you hold degrees in any of those fields? Have you ever worked in any of those fields as your vocation?
Last edited by N_C; 05-07-07 at 02:22 PM.
#34
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Originally Posted by N_C
WTF is risk averse? Sounds like another bull**** term made up by Forester.
John before you state another term will you please give us a list of these with their definitions? Seriously it sounds like you're making this crap up as you go along.
John before you state another term will you please give us a list of these with their definitions? Seriously it sounds like you're making this crap up as you go along.
Risk aversion and risk perception are two different things, of course. Risk-averse people may underestimate the risk of things they do every day without thought, and risk-seeking people may overestimate the danger of things that they choose because they seem dangerous.
Back when I was a risk-seeker, I did a lot of urban roadway cycling, assuming that I'd probably get hit, but I never did. Just a lot of harassment, which made me overestimate the danger I was facing.
Now that I am risk-averse, I also do a lot of urban roadway cycling, but I don't worry about it, because I learned not to.
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Originally Posted by genec
Originally Posted by John Forester
I suppose that feeling yourself to be risk-averse is part of the discomfort. The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment. When you recognize that the harassing motorist has far less traffic knowledge than you have and is (dare I use this word in this forum?) ignorant and uncouth, the amount of discomfort is much less.
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Originally Posted by N_C
Originally Posted by Helmet head
While there will probably always be room for improvement in cultural attitudes towards cyclists on the road, the best antidote I know of is for the cyclist to consistently behave in a vehicular manner. It's no panacea - you will still get yelled and honked at - but not nearly as often.
My experience has proven, time & again, I am better off & get honked at, yelled at, et al less when I behave in an adaptive manner, or AC instead of strictly VC in accordance with yours or JF's doctrine & method of advised riding. I can only apply this in the areas I've ridden bike in.
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Strict VC is strict adherence to VC while riding a bicycle. It means never riding on sidewalks, never doing a 2-step left turn, always taking the lane, never taking a short cut through a parking lot, never mountain biking, never rolling a stop (a.k.a California Stop), never riding on bike paths, etc. There are no known adherents or proponents of Strict VC, though some VC contrarians have been known to mischaracterize VC advocates as such.
I would NEVER presume to claim Adaptive Cycling would apply in any area except the areas I have ridden in. But you seem to have no problem making a general statment that VC would apply to to all areas.
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Originally Posted by N_C
WTF is risk averse? Sounds like another bull**** term made up by Forester.
John before you state another term will you please give us a list of these with their definitions? Seriously it sounds like you're making this crap up as you go along.
Correction here is what I found on risk averse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion
I am not sure if this is what JF means by it though. John please explain how this apply's to cycling. How in the hell does economics, finance & psychology apply in the context in which Diane is talking about here? Are you a financial, economics or even a psychology expert? Do you hold degrees in any of those fields? Have you ever worked in any of those fields as your vocation?
John before you state another term will you please give us a list of these with their definitions? Seriously it sounds like you're making this crap up as you go along.
Correction here is what I found on risk averse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion
I am not sure if this is what JF means by it though. John please explain how this apply's to cycling. How in the hell does economics, finance & psychology apply in the context in which Diane is talking about here? Are you a financial, economics or even a psychology expert? Do you hold degrees in any of those fields? Have you ever worked in any of those fields as your vocation?
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
When I ride near the Marine (Miramar and Pendleton) and Navy (Coronado) bases in San Diego I don't notice any significant difference in treatment. A lot more motorcycles though...
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Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
Then you are lucky - I'd wager the fact that the Naval base here is so huge, it supplies our area with many more times the amout of young, cocky sailors then the area you are talking about.
[Camp Pendleton's] diverse geography, spanning over 125,000 acres, plays host to year round training for Marines in addition to all other branches of the U.S. Military. Amphibious and sea-to-shore training takes place at several key points along the base's 17 miles of coastline. The main base is in the Mainside Complex, at the southeastern end of the base, and the remote northern interior is an impact area. Daytime population is around 100,000.
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Originally Posted by N_C
WTF is risk averse? Sounds like another bull**** term made up by Forester.
John before you state another term will you please give us a list of these with their definitions? Seriously it sounds like you're making this crap up as you go along.
Correction here is what I found on risk averse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion
I am not sure if this is what JF means by it though. John please explain how this apply's to cycling. How in the hell does economics, finance & psychology apply in the context in which Diane is talking about here? Are you a financial, economics or even a psychology expert? Do you hold degrees in any of those fields? Have you ever worked in any of those fields as your vocation?
John before you state another term will you please give us a list of these with their definitions? Seriously it sounds like you're making this crap up as you go along.
Correction here is what I found on risk averse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion
I am not sure if this is what JF means by it though. John please explain how this apply's to cycling. How in the hell does economics, finance & psychology apply in the context in which Diane is talking about here? Are you a financial, economics or even a psychology expert? Do you hold degrees in any of those fields? Have you ever worked in any of those fields as your vocation?
I used the term "risk-averse" precisely in answer to sbhikes's own statement about herself:
"Originally Posted by sbhikes
What if you are a risk-averse individual who doesn't feel it's worth the hassle? I mean you know you have a right to the road. You really want to ride your bike. But add all that motorist harassment and threats of actual violence on top of your already stressful work day and what is the point?"
Possibly, NC, you desire to question sbhikes's qualifications for using this phrase? I'm sure that she would appreciate the irony of such questioning.
By the way, although it was long ago, I taught graduate and senior students about risks as involved in business decisions, advanced the field somewhat, and even wrote a text on the subject.
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Originally Posted by John Forester
Possibly, NC, you desire to question sbhikes's qualifications for using this phrase? I'm sure that she would appreciate the irony of such questioning.
And who said Forester doesn't have a sense of humor?
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
How huge is it?
The Hampton Roads area is home to one of the nation’s largest concentrations of military personnel, with approximately 110,000 active duty military personnel. The total DoD population, including active duty, reserve, retirees and family members totals approximately 300,000 in an area with a total population of 1.8 million.
Major military units and headquarters include NATO’s Allied Command Transformation, U.S. Joint Forces Command, U.S. Fleet Forces Command, the U.S. Air Force’s Air Combat Command, U.S. Marine Corps Forces Command, and the U.S. Army Training and Doctrine Command. Military hardware in the area includes 70 ships, 12 submarines, 400 Navy aircraft, 80 Air Force aircraft, and a variety of Navy Special Forces and support units.
Major military units and headquarters include NATO’s Allied Command Transformation, U.S. Joint Forces Command, U.S. Fleet Forces Command, the U.S. Air Force’s Air Combat Command, U.S. Marine Corps Forces Command, and the U.S. Army Training and Doctrine Command. Military hardware in the area includes 70 ships, 12 submarines, 400 Navy aircraft, 80 Air Force aircraft, and a variety of Navy Special Forces and support units.
But keep in mind, average daily miles bicycled will add greatly to your exposure to impatient motorists
or
Hampton Roads is also a chief rendezvous of the US Navy. The Hampton Roads area has the largest concentration of military bases and facilities of any metropolitan area in the world. The area is home to the Allied Command Transformation, which is the only major military command of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). Langley Air Force Base is home to Air Combat Command (ACC). The Norfolk Navy Base is located at Sewell's Point near the mouth, on the site used for the tercentennial Jamestown Exposition in 1907. For a width of 500 feet the Federal government during 1902 through 1905 increased its minimum depth at low water from 25.5 feet to 30 feet, and the channel has now been dredged to a depth of 55 feet in some places.
Other area military facilities (alphabetically) include:
* Camp Peary in York County
* Fleet Training Center Dam Neck in Virginia Beach
* Fort Eustis in Newport News
* Fort Monroe in Hampton (scheduled to be closed by 2011)
* Fort Story in Virginia Beach
* Langley Air Force Base in Hampton
* Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek in Virginia Beach
* Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach
* Naval Weapons Station Yorktown in York County
* Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth (not to be confused with Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, in Kittery, Maine)
* Saint Julian Creek Naval Depot Annex in Chesapeake
* Coast Guard Integrated Support Command Portsmouth[1]
Other area military facilities (alphabetically) include:
* Camp Peary in York County
* Fleet Training Center Dam Neck in Virginia Beach
* Fort Eustis in Newport News
* Fort Monroe in Hampton (scheduled to be closed by 2011)
* Fort Story in Virginia Beach
* Langley Air Force Base in Hampton
* Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek in Virginia Beach
* Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach
* Naval Weapons Station Yorktown in York County
* Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth (not to be confused with Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, in Kittery, Maine)
* Saint Julian Creek Naval Depot Annex in Chesapeake
* Coast Guard Integrated Support Command Portsmouth[1]
Last edited by natelutkjohn; 05-07-07 at 04:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Mr. Forester clearly differentiated harassment from actual violence. What you cite are example of actual violence, despite the occasional existence of which, the risk is minute.
Originally Posted by John "Mountebank" Forester
The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment.
Thus the risk from harassment is violence, and that sir, is not minute, but a real threat that though maybe not common where you live, is very common in other places. And I think I may know just a little bit more on this subject than you.
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Originally Posted by pj7
While having a bottle, can or other item thrown at you from a moving car is a form of violence, it is also harassment. Now don't go and get all Wall of Words on me here. Any attack on someone can be defined as harassment wether it be physical or mental.
Harassment leads to violence, would you not agree? Maybe not 100% of the time but the fact remains that harassment leads to violence.
Thus the risk from harassment is violence, and that sir, is not minute, but a real threat that though maybe not common where you live, is very common in other places. And I think I may know just a little bit more on this subject than you.
Harassment leads to violence, would you not agree? Maybe not 100% of the time but the fact remains that harassment leads to violence.
Thus the risk from harassment is violence, and that sir, is not minute, but a real threat that though maybe not common where you live, is very common in other places. And I think I may know just a little bit more on this subject than you.
Of the 700-800 U.S. deaths per year, how many are caused by harrassment that lead to violence?
Of the non-fatal bicyclist injuries suffered per year, about what non-minute percent is caused by harrassment that lead to violence?
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
Is it an inevitable part of riding without cycling facilities to be yelled at, honked at or lectured to? Does this just come with the territory? Grin and bear it, the best you can hope for? How can it be stopped, or is this not something VC advocates are interested in?
I've also had two cases of "get on the path" when I refused to ride on a path that had a stop sign at every intersection and also at driveway after driveway. I guess this design puts motorists at the top of the heap.
But I've also had some walnut honk or cuss and tell me, "You're not a car" when I was riding the road, no facilities anywhere in sight. Another fav--"Get on the sidewalk."
But I have to be honest--on the road, I've had just as many (if not more) positive comments while riding the road:
"How far do you ride? Wow, I admire what you do."
"I see you almost every day. I always leave you lots of room, and I tap my horn lightly to let you know I'm coming up from behind." (I never told this lady the horn part wasn't necessary. I just smiled and thanked her.)
"<thumbs up>"
"Yaaah! Go, dude!! <thumbs up>"
Plus, people waving me ahead, waving, etc.
I'm just telling it like I've experienced it. Of course, to be honest, most people at work, face-to-face, including my best and nicest friends, have all expressed their concern for my well-being "riding on the street with the cars."
Funny thing is, I've known folks at work who drive cars to get seriously injured, but I haven't on my bike. I've even heard, twice, cars screeching before crashing into other vehicles, all while riding to work. (No, I didn't cause those... )
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Last edited by LittleBigMan; 05-07-07 at 04:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
I
Of course, to be honest, most people at work, face-to-face, including my best and nicest friends, have all expressed their concern for my well-being "riding on the street with the cars."
Of course, to be honest, most people at work, face-to-face, including my best and nicest friends, have all expressed their concern for my well-being "riding on the street with the cars."
Bike lanes reinforce The Notion (If the The Notion is not true... why do we need bike lanes?)
Vehicular Cycling, the Practice, Theory and Philosophy, is the only antidote.
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Originally Posted by John Forester
Possibly, NC, you desire to question sbhikes's qualifications for using this phrase? I'm sure that she would appreciate the irony of such questioning.
By the way, although it was long ago, I taught graduate and senior students about risks as involved in business decisions, advanced the field somewhat, and even wrote a text on the subject.
By the way, although it was long ago, I taught graduate and senior students about risks as involved in business decisions, advanced the field somewhat, and even wrote a text on the subject.
You know what they say, right? Those that can't do, teach. I don't think you can do, maybe you ought to go back to teaching. Just tell me what school so I can avoid taking online classes while I am getting my Bachelors in Telecommunications then hopefully my Masters.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Well, share with us, please, Mr. "know just a little bit more on this subject".
Of the 700-800 U.S. deaths per year, how many are caused by harrassment that lead to violence?
Of the non-fatal bicyclist injuries suffered per year, about what non-minute percent is caused by harrassment that lead to violence?
Of the 700-800 U.S. deaths per year, how many are caused by harrassment that lead to violence?
Of the non-fatal bicyclist injuries suffered per year, about what non-minute percent is caused by harrassment that lead to violence?
........................................................................
................................................
.............
What, just me?
I rest my case
pj"knows just a little bit more on this subject"7
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Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
Then you are lucky - I'd wager the fact that the Naval base here is so huge, it supplies our area with many more times the amout of young, cocky sailors then the area you are talking about.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Of the 700-800 U.S. deaths per year, how many are caused by harrassment that lead to violence?
Oh, did I just turn your challenge around on you and refuse to answer until you answer mine? Hrm... wonder who else does this.
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Of the non-fatal bicyclist injuries suffered per year, about what non-minute percent is caused by harrassment that lead to violence?
The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment.
Here is an example to think of:
You are cycling along, concentrating hard on your cadence, up in front, in the bushes are some kids with firecrackers. As soon as you pass they set them off and toss them in your direction. POP POP POP POP! You lose oyur concentration, become confused, and plow into something, causing damage.
There you have it, a risk from harassment.
[EDIT]
Before you even reply to this with your Headspeak and Wall of Words remember that the statement we are talking about is
The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment.