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Contest: Essence of the BL arguments

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Contest: Essence of the BL arguments

Old 05-24-07, 12:39 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I think most bike lane supporters believe integration is not possible (whether they realize they believe this or not; whether they characterize their belief in these words or not) ...
It is not even necessary for these supporters to be aware of their own beliefs! HH knows better! HH has learned well the technique from his guru of divining the unstated intentions/motivations of those who don't share his passions. This is too silly for further comment.
"As with language, the principles that make up our moral grammar fly beneath the radar of our awareness." Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, p. 223

Most people are not aware of the principles that underlie their beliefs about anything. That's why they have such a hard time articulating why they hold the beliefs that they hold. They can't explain it, because they don't understand it.
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Old 05-24-07, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
"As with language, the principles that make up our moral grammar fly beneath the radar of our awareness." Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, p. 223

Most people are not aware of the principles that underlie their beliefs about anything. That's why they have such a hard time articulating why they hold the beliefs that they hold. They can't explain it, because they don't understand it.
And you no doubt are under the delusion that you are the God of cycling who does know it all about what "they" really believe. What a crock. And you aren't funnin' us either; you really do believe your own line of stuff, doncha?
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Old 05-24-07, 01:20 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
I'm confused. You once wrote the following about vehicular cycling:

If bike lanes are not perceived to remove cyclists from the flow of traffic, which you say they don't want to ride in, then what makes the striped design better than the unstriped wide outside lanes of equal passing space that vehicular cyclists promote?
Thanks for that quote, Steve. That's exactly what I am talking about.
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Old 05-24-07, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
And you no doubt are under the delusion that you are the God of cycling who does know it all about what "they" really believe. What a crock. And you aren't funnin' us either; you really do believe your own line of stuff, doncha?
I think anyone who chooses to raise his or her awareness about the issues can see that most bike lane supporters don't really believe in car-bike integration, and seek to avoid it. Even Bek acknowledges this when he says, "Because riders, as a group, don't want to ride in high speed traffic." Are you really disagreeing with this?
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Old 05-24-07, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I think anyone who chooses to raise his or her awareness about the issues can see that most bike lane supporters don't really believe in car-bike integration, and seek to avoid it. Even Bek acknowledges this when he says, "Because riders, as a group, don't want to ride in high speed traffic." Are you really disagreeing with this?
Riding in (as in the lane) high speed traffic and with (as in next to them on the same road) are two different things, integration is still there.
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Old 05-24-07, 01:46 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
Riding in (as in the lane) high speed traffic and with (as in next to them on the same road) are two different things, integration is still there.
Between intersections/junctions, that works reasonably well.

But at intersections, destination positioning means that cycling with the corresponding vehicular traffic flow for your destination rather than beside traffic headed to the wrong destination requires leaving the striped curbside area, and cycling in traffic (rather than accross) to merge into the appropriate position.

As the intersection count increases, cycling next to traffic and experiencing more crossing events becomes progressively more hazardous than cycling in traffic. Vehicular cyclists prefer to choose between in and next to based on context without having to operate contrary to pavement markings.

Last edited by sggoodri; 05-24-07 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 05-24-07, 02:03 PM
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I think the difference between integration and segregation can sometimes be more mental than physical. In other words, two cyclists could be riding in the exact same position, and yet one is integrated and the other is segregated.

The difference is how they're thinking and paying attention, and it manifests itself with respect to not what is happening at that very moment, but maybe with respect to what is about to happen.

The integrated one, for example, would probably be aware that the car currently passing him is the last of a platoon, the gap behind that last car is a long one, they are approaching a junction with a midblock mall entrance/exit, there is oncoming traffic with potential left-turners, and he is preparing to merge left as soon as that last car passes him, in order to improve his sight lines to/from that mall entrance, to improve his safety buffer, and to improve his conspicuity to oncoming potential left-crossers and right-crossers traveling in and out of the mall entrance/exit. And most of the processing would be happening instinctively and effortlessly for the integrated cyclist.

A segregated cyclist in the exact same situation is more likely to be simply enjoying the ride, and probably oblivious to most of the traffic hazards that are about to unfold. It probably wouldn't occur to him to move left at this point.
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Old 05-24-07, 02:43 PM
  #33  
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Bike lane opposers: Bike lanes are the root of all mental illness, delusions, phobias and of course, incompetent cycling.
Bike lane non-opposers: Sufferers of mental illness, delisions, phobias and of course, incompetent cycling.

I REALLY want to win this contents.
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Old 05-24-07, 03:05 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
I REALLY want to win this contents.
good luck! HH is the judge, he's voting for the person he agrees with, not the most votes, but I do vote for yours if that helps
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Old 05-24-07, 03:08 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
Between intersections/junctions, that works reasonably well.

But at intersections, destination positioning means that cycling with the corresponding vehicular traffic flow for your destination rather than beside traffic headed to the wrong destination requires leaving the striped curbside area, and cycling in traffic (rather than accross) to merge into the appropriate position.

As the intersection count increases, cycling next to traffic and experiencing more crossing events becomes progressively more hazardous than cycling in traffic. Vehicular cyclists prefer to choose between in and next to based on context without having to operate contrary to pavement markings.
Oh, I get it now, when a bikelane advocate talks about riding in a lane (or next to the cars), its called segregation, but when VC does it, its called choice... I think I finally saw the light!



Advocating for bike lanes does not mean advocating that you MUST ride in the bike lane.
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Old 05-24-07, 03:21 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I think the difference between integration and segregation can sometimes be more mental than physical. In other words, two cyclists could be riding in the exact same position, and yet one is integrated and the other is segregated.

The difference is how they're thinking and paying attention, and it manifests itself with respect to not what is happening at that very moment, but maybe with respect to what is about to happen.

The integrated one, for example, would probably be aware that the car currently passing him is the last of a platoon, the gap behind that last car is a long one, they are approaching a junction with a midblock mall entrance/exit, there is oncoming traffic with potential left-turners, and he is preparing to merge left as soon as that last car passes him, in order to improve his sight lines to/from that mall entrance, to improve his safety buffer, and to improve his conspicuity to oncoming potential left-crossers and right-crossers traveling in and out of the mall entrance/exit. And most of the processing would be happening instinctively and effortlessly for the integrated cyclist.

A segregated cyclist in the exact same situation is more likely to be simply enjoying the ride, and probably oblivious to most of the traffic hazards that are about to unfold. It probably wouldn't occur to him to move left at this point.

Not to dispell any of what you just said... but think about the mental state of the two cyclists you just contrasted. One is juggling timing, potentials, safety, and "his conspicuity," and the other is just riding along...

Who is likely to have less stress?

Of course two minutes later, one has reached their destination, and the other is awaiting an ambulance...
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Old 05-24-07, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Not to dispell any of what you just said... but think about the mental state of the two cyclists you just contrasted. One is juggling timing, potentials, safety, and "his conspicuity," and the other is just riding along...

Who is likely to have less stress?

Of course two minutes later, one has reached their destination, and the other is awaiting an ambulance...
Indeed, some stress can be good.

But I also think the stress associated with the processing required while riding "mentally integrated", as with any activity, lessens with practice and experience. Situations that used to stress me out on my commute when I first started doing it don't bother me at all anymore (and haven't for years).

I think bike lanes hinder the natural progression from stressful integration to low-stress integration by allowing the unitiated to travel in blissful ignorance riding in a "mentally segregated" state. It's like never removing the training wheels, or trying to learn to swim with a life jacket on.

By seeking to avoid stressful integration, whether it's riding in bike lanes on bike laned streets, or curb hugging and sidewalk cycling on unbikelaned streets, cyclists keep themselves from having the opportunity to make progress towards advanced and low-stress integration.
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Old 05-24-07, 04:06 PM
  #38  
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The Essence of BL Arguments is a fine blend of asphault and paint aromatics in an alcohol base sold in 32oz. squeeze bottles marketed to hookers, honkers, alpha dogs and the phobic.

Al
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Old 05-24-07, 04:16 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
The Essence of BL Arguments is a fine blend of asphault and paint aromatics in an alcohol base sold in 32oz. squeeze bottles marketed to hookers, honkers, alpha dogs and the phobic.

Al
Now that's just stupid
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Old 05-24-07, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
Bike lane opposers: Bike lanes are the root of all mental illness, delusions, phobias and of course, incompetent cycling.
Bike lane non-opposers: Sufferers of mental illness, delisions, phobias and of course, incompetent cycling.

I REALLY want to win this contents.
More very bad logic. Bike lanes are the result of two causes. One is the desire by motorists to push cyclists aside, as inferior roadway users, as evidenced by the history of their invention. The other is the emotion, created and fostered originally by motorists, that cyclists are inferior roadway users who need their own space to make them safe and legitimate. The items that sbhikes mentions as results are mostly causes. Furthermore, incompetent cycling is the result of America's sixty years or more insistence that cyclists are inferior roadway users. Therefore, incompetent cycling is the far earlier result of America's insistence that cyclists are inferior roadway users, while bike lanes are a later result.

Sbhikes's characterizations of cyclists who do not oppose bike lanes, presumably being those who actively advocate them and those who merely accept them, are more accurate, since bike lanes are the result of the cyclist-inferiority view. Any cyclist who believes that he or she is by nature inferior to motorists in ability to operate in traffic or in legal status as a roadway user might be the victim of mental illness, delusions, or phobia, or similar things to a lesser extent, although if that person is simply complying with what he or she has been taught, can be considered plain ignorant. Furthermore, all those characteristics are very likely to be accompanied by incompetent cycling. It is difficult to imagine a competent cyclist who suffered from any of these conditions.
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Old 05-24-07, 04:58 PM
  #41  
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Nice post, John, but there's no way you can win the contest, unless you can be more succinct.

May I suggest that you edit your post to something more like:

Diane, I fixed your post for you. Here is what I really think:

Bike lane opposers: Bike lanes are caused by mental illness, delusions, phobias and of course, incompetent cycling.
There, that's better.

Bike lane non-opposers: Sufferers of mental illness, delisions, phobias and of course, incompetent cycling.
Yes. This one actually didn't need changing. I agree 100%.
Remember:
This thread is a contest!

Let's see who can state the essence of the pro-Bike Lane and anti-BL positions most succinctly.
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Old 05-24-07, 05:49 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Indeed, some stress can be good.

But I also think the stress associated with the processing required while riding "mentally integrated", as with any activity, lessens with practice and experience. Situations that used to stress me out on my commute when I first started doing it don't bother me at all anymore (and haven't for years).

I think bike lanes hinder the natural progression from stressful integration to low-stress integration by allowing the unitiated to travel in blissful ignorance riding in a "mentally segregated" state. It's like never removing the training wheels, or trying to learn to swim with a life jacket on.

By seeking to avoid stressful integration, whether it's riding in bike lanes on bike laned streets, or curb hugging and sidewalk cycling on unbikelaned streets, cyclists keep themselves from having the opportunity to make progress towards advanced and low-stress integration.
I am not going to disagree with you... there is some merit in what you are saying... but bear in mind that some folks never go into the water without life jackets... and that suits them just fine. Some motorists never go on freeways. Some folks will never be comfortable with a command line. Some cyclists ride three wheel bikes (sorry Diane... ) Some folks never go to college. Can't all these folks still be "accomodated?"
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Old 05-24-07, 06:00 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
This thread is a contest!

Let's see who can state the essence of the pro-Bike Lane and anti-BL positions most succinctly.
Honestly, my friend, the position I can state most succinctly is my own. My position is not pro- nor anti-bike lane. I see both sides of this equation. My only qualifier is that bike lanes manifest themselves as equal to, or better than, the unmodified roadways they compete with, else they are of little use to me. They must make cycling better for me, if I am to support them for myself. If they don't make cycling better for me, I can support them to a degree for those who do find they make cycling better for them, but I also strongly desire they are designed and maintained intelligently for my sake.

As a realist, I recognize that bike lanes, like all other forms of transportational infrastructure we have come to accept as commonplace in modern American cities, are a fact of life I must adapt to. Not that I prefer many of their forms...I would also prefer that roadways be made better for cycling, as well. Just that if bike lanes are going to be built, I must adapt to them as I do to other roadway conditions.

However, adapting to bike lanes seems to me to defeat the purpose of them in the first place. Therefore, I reiterate they should equal or surpass the roadways they compete with for improving cycling. Else, what's a bike lane for?
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Old 05-24-07, 06:06 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by genec
I am not going to disagree with you... there is some merit in what you are saying... but bear in mind that some folks never go into the water without life jackets... and that suits them just fine. Some motorists never go on freeways. Some folks will never be comfortable with a command line. Some cyclists ride three wheel bikes (sorry Diane... ) Some folks never go to college. Can't all these folks still be "accomodated?"
Sure, but there are consequences.

The folks in life jackets are free to float around in their pools, but it won't be much fun, and if they ever fall into deep water, they are likely to drown. So we don't discourage folks from learning how to swim.

The motorists who don't go on freeways are probably not going to be able to drive between SF and LA, at least not in a very reasonable amount of time. So we don't discourage driving students from learning how to drive on freeways.

The folks who are uncomfortable with command lines will never write shell scripts. So we don't discourage programmers from learning command lines.

Those who don't go to college will have doors shut. Thus we don't do things to encourage people to not go to college.

And those who seek to think and feel segregated while cycling in traffic are probably going to have more than their fair share of crashes. And advocates, lawmakers and engineers have no business encouraging or facilitating that, which is what supporting and building bike lanes does.

Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-24-07 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 05-24-07, 06:26 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
Nice post, John, but there's no way you can win the contest, unless you can be more succinct....
somehow, I think he already won.... it's the name
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Old 05-24-07, 06:34 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Sure, but there are consequences.

The folks in life jackets are free to float around in their pools, but it won't be much fun, and if they ever fall into deep water, they are likely to drown. So we don't discourage folks from learning how to swim.

The motorists who don't go on freeways are probably not going to be able to drive between SF and LA, at least not in a very reasonable amount of time. So we don't discourage driving students from learning how to drive on freeways.

The folks who are uncomfortable with command lines will never write shell scripts. So we don't discourage programmers from learning command lines.

Those who don't go to college will have doors shut. Thus we don't do things to encourage people to not go to college.

And those who seek to think and feel segregated while cycling in traffic are probably going to have more than their fair share of crashes. And advocates, lawmakers and engineers have no business encouraging or facilitating that, which is what supporting and building bike lanes does.


Meanwhile those folks that wear PFDs do just fine in deep water... they float there too.

And those folks that don't drive on freeways, enjoy the train...

And folks that don't program are called users, and the world is full of them and programmers wouldn't have a thing to do without them.

And those that don't go to college... Well they do everything from flip burgers to run companies... some have even become president.

Oh what the heck... those cyclists that don't fit your mold, just send them to sidewalks... Because in a democratic society, we try to accomodate the needs of all, not just the few.
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Old 05-24-07, 06:44 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
somehow, I think he already won.... it's the name
Folks, it's a playful contest with a meaningless prize. Obsessing about who will judge, or how it will be judged, or who will win, is ridiculous.
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Old 05-24-07, 06:47 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by genec

Oh what the heck... those cyclists that don't fit your mold, just send them to sidewalks... Because in a democratic society, we try to accomodate the needs of all, not just the few.
Of course, but we don't accomodate the needs of the blind by giving them loaded guns.

Enticing the uninitiated with bike lanes to ride on roads for which they are not prepared is like accomodating the blind with loaded guns. It's irresponsible.
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Old 05-24-07, 07:18 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Folks, it's a playful contest with a meaningless prize. Obsessing about who will judge, or how it will be judged, or who will win, is ridiculous.
Exactly, so why post it, and obsess over it? I love that after the fact, the house is burining down, I didn't mean to light that fire in the bathroom stuff - priceless man, just priceless. Especialy since the person you quoted made a joke entry (sort of).... I just like to see you squirm is all
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Oh, read post #48, talk about obsessing
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Old 05-24-07, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
Exactly, so why post it, and obsess over it? I love that after the fact, the house is burining down, I didn't mean to light that fire in the bathroom stuff - priceless man, just priceless. Especialy since the person you quoted made a joke entry (sort of).... I just like to see you squirm is all
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Oh, read post #48, talk about obsessing
Zeyton is able to get me to squirm once in a while But you don't even come close.

There is nothing after the fact going on here, genius. The OP clearly states the only prize is "Recognition and adulation from forum members", which is naturally determined by the posts themselves, not by something I pick.

The purpose of the thread is to encourage folks to try to articulate the two positions on this BL issue.
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