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Have you ever been clipped, hit, or knocked down by a close-passer?

Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.
View Poll Results: Have you ever been clipped, hit, or knocked down by a close-passer?
Yes, and it was related to me swerving/falling left due to a front tire blowout.
0.52%
Yes, but it was not related to me swerving/falling left due to a front tire blowout.
34.54%
No - I have never been even clipped by a close-passer.
62.37%
Other
2.58%
Voters: 194. You may not vote on this poll

Have you ever been clipped, hit, or knocked down by a close-passer?

Old 08-27-07, 01:56 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Wow, some nanny moderator deleted my reply, despite the fact that it was within the forum guidelines. I can't say that I'm surprised.



Here it is again:

"No, you do not live or ride in an area with unique traffic situations."

Let me know if I need to bust out the crayons yet again.
Sure bust out the crayons... Find me the same Weatherford Traffic Circle here in San Diego. Find the Chicago Lake Shore Drive in LA.

While the conditions may be somewhat similar, UNIQUE TRAFFIC SITUATIONS exist everywhere.

For instance, the areas you ride do not have have the population density of the areas I ride, therefore I encounter more frustrated motorists per mile than you do.

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post

I've ridden in east county (Pine Valley), from Mission Bay to Mission Hills, from the harbor north to La Jolla, etc. I've also driven in other areas of San Diego and the roads are not unique, especially when compared to many other areas in the state.

You are claiming that my comments about you and Serge being so fearful must be because I'm not familiar with the aggressive drivers, scary streets, etc. that you two face in San Diego. That's silly.
No, I am claiming what you term as fear is just awareness and understanding of potential situations and what it takes to mitigate such situations and properly manage them. That same type of keeping your head on a fast swivel to deal with dozens of motorists at a busy 6 lane meets 6 lane intersection would not apply in say Pine Valley, were most roads are 2 lanes, and while the traffic moves fast, there is no where near the density.
Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Most of San Diego metro area has either WOL, or BL or multilaned roads. That's just the kind of non-unique environment that I ride in.
Right, just like wide shoulders exist all over California.

Spend a few minutes in any area of town built before the mid 70s and you will see how false your statement is. Download the San Diego cycling map and look at the yellow routes (other suggested routes) these tend to be just your usual narrow roads where no other alternative exists.
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Old 08-27-07, 01:58 PM
  #77  
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Over one-third of the 66 respondents to this poll so far report having been hit, clipped or knocked down by a close-passer. Over one third. That likelihood puts the possibility of this happening to any one of us in a much different league from, say, being hit by a meteorite.

Taking appropriate precautions accordingly is done out of prudence, not fear.
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Old 08-27-07, 02:04 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Sure bust out the crayons... Find me the same Weatherford Traffic Circle here in San Diego. Find the Chicago Lake Shore Drive in LA.

While the conditions may be somewhat similar, UNIQUE TRAFFIC SITUATIONS exist everywhere.

For instance, the areas you ride do not have have the population density of the areas I ride, therefore I encounter more frustrated motorists per mile than you do.
Don't be ridiculous, Gene. Peter's Contra Costa County density is almost double that of San Diego County.
The density of Concord is almost triple that of the density in the city of San Diego.
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Old 08-27-07, 02:54 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
Don't be ridiculous, Gene. Peter's Contra Costa County density is almost double that of San Diego County.
The density of Concord is almost triple that of the density in the city of San Diego.
http://www.usacitiesonline.com/cacou...htm#statistics

The population of Concord is approximately 123,900 (2001).
The approximate number of families is 43,715 (1990).

The amount of land area in Concord is 76.339 sq. kilometers.


The population of San Diego is approximately 1,264,600 (2002).
The approximate number of families is 471,162 (2000).

The amount of land area in San Diego is 839.17 sq. kilometers.
The amount of land area in San Diego is 342.4 sq. miles.

Concord is 1611.23 persons per square KM, San Diego is 1506.96 persons per square KM, not hardly 3 times the density by any means. Nearly equal by the figures supplied. Of course Pete said Contra Costa County... he could be in any one of these cities: http://www.co.contra-costa.ca.us/cities.html

And I have mentioned that the eastern areas of San Diego city, and especially the county have no where near the traffic issues (and density) of the "golden triangle area."

The heart of the matter is that the cycling environment varies from place to place... and the skills needed for one location and type of riding may be different for another area and type of riding (except the most basic of skills of course).
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Old 08-27-07, 03:08 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
i think fems'
Fem? In my mind I call them 'Lem' when I'm scanning posts. But perhaps it really 'Pound-em in PA"?

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Old 08-27-07, 03:16 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post

But maybe the judges and I are just missing something.
Thats a fair observation.
A lot of people here would agree with that too.
I will also add, you appear to be a very angry person.
Is this what unrequited conquesting does to one ?
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Old 08-27-07, 03:37 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Where in Delaware was this? (I'm assuming Delaware because of your location)
Camden, south of Dover.
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Old 08-27-07, 03:47 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by -=£em in Pa=- View Post
Thats a fair observation.
A lot of people here would agree with that too.
I will also add, you appear to be a very angry person.
Is this what unrequited conquesting does to one ?
Yeah, that's it, I'm angry.

Look. You contended that you were not allowed to present your case on two different occassions with two different judges and with respect two different situations/traffic tickets. You implied that others should expect similar results. I'm suggesting that you consider there might be a different explanation for why you got the results that you got, and that it has more to do with you and the way you present your thoughts than it has to do with the cops lying or the judges cutting you off. I made this suggestion based on impressions I got from posts you've made to this forum. You asked for examples. I couldn't immediately find any by searching. Now I did, in this thread. If you want to ignore my point and simply see this as an example of me being "angry", suit yourself. I tried. I'm done. To the OP and others, sorry for the digression.
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Old 08-27-07, 03:58 PM
  #84  
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you ARE angry, head - that your inadverdent drift/fear of overtaking traffic hyperbole isn't exactly catching on in this forum.
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Old 08-27-07, 03:59 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Your behavior continues to be based upon irrational fears.

You have also, once again, attempted to recast the discussion in a disingenuous way.

Our discussion wasn't about merely being clipped by a close passer, as you are now claiming. It was quite different, as has already been explained to you.

You are worried about having a blowout, losing control of your bike, swerving left rather than right, just as a motorist passes too closely and you're also assuming that the motorist will not alter course to avoid the cyclist that is swerving at him.

Sheer paranoia!
You're the one who keeps talking about "a blowout, losing control of your bike, swerving left rather than right, just as a motorist passes too closely" and some phantom assumption "that the motorist will not alter course to avoid the cyclist that is swerving at him." Yes, I put the front blowout question in this poll, but only because you brought it up in another thread, and I was curious whether that actually happened to anyone here.

I brought up those examples off the top of my head for potential reasons why a cyclist in general might suddenly and unexpectedly change lateral position by a foot or two. As usual, you take that out of context and see it as the core basis for trying to avoid close passes. That's Peter's Fantasyland.

The main reason is that a motorist who is accustomed to doing something with minimal margins -- in this case regularly passing cyclists with less than about 3 feet of clearance -- is not leaving much room for error on his part or that of the cyclist. Hence over one third of the respondents of this thread report being hit, clipped or knocked over by a close-passer.

Sure if he's a couple of car lengths back when the cyclist suddenly swerves left a foot or two to avoid a previously unnoticed hazard he might have the time and space to evade the cyclist, assuming the motorist is paying attention to the cyclist at that very moment (which is probably a 50/50 proposition at best, considering by that time the motorist is probably paying more attention to stuff further ahead that he feels is more likely to be a potential hazard to him). But if he's just a few feet back of the cyclist, about to pass him, when the cyclist suddenly adjusts, there may be no time to adjust.

Anyone who does something routinely starts doing it more and more unconsciously, especially if doing it happens repeatedly without incident. So every time a driver passes a cyclist closely without incident, he's that much more likely to not pay attention to the next cyclist he passes like that. But sooner or later, it matters, but it's too late. Maybe the cyclist is unnoticed and the motorist inadvertently drifts. Maybe the cyclist drifts. Who knows? Who cares? Over one third of the respondents of this thread report being hit, clipped or knocked over by a close-passer. It's prudent to identify and use techniques and practices that address this. That's what this is about. To refer to such prudence as "irrational fear" is irrational in and of itself. Peter's Fantasyland.

Last edited by Helmet Head; 08-27-07 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 08-27-07, 04:13 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
http://www.usacitiesonline.com/cacou...htm#statistics

The population of Concord is approximately 123,900 (2001).
The approximate number of families is 43,715 (1990).

The amount of land area in Concord is 76.339 sq. kilometers.


The population of San Diego is approximately 1,264,600 (2002).
The approximate number of families is 471,162 (2000).

The amount of land area in San Diego is 839.17 sq. kilometers.
The amount of land area in San Diego is 342.4 sq. miles.

Concord is 1611.23 persons per square KM, San Diego is 1506.96 persons per square KM, not hardly 3 times the density by any means. Nearly equal by the figures supplied. Of course Pete said Contra Costa County... he could be in any one of these cities: http://www.co.contra-costa.ca.us/cities.html

And I have mentioned that the eastern areas of San Diego city, and especially the county have no where near the traffic issues (and density) of the "golden triangle area."

The heart of the matter is that the cycling environment varies from place to place... and the skills needed for one location and type of riding may be different for another area and type of riding (except the most basic of skills of course).
I was just going by WIkipedia which says the density of Concord is 3,928.39/km≤.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord%2C_California

In any case, it sounds like it's more or less the same, and your contention that the density is significantly higher in San Diego doesn't fly.

And bicycling in the "golden triangle" area is perhaps not for the beginner, but any experienced cyclist should have few if any issues.
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Old 08-27-07, 04:19 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
No fantasyland, just the reality that you find yourself trapped in.

Nothing is being taken out of context Serge and unless you're using some bizarre Headspeakô definition of "off the top of my head" it wasn't that casual given the mountains of words that you used to describe the situation.

After all, you're the fearful guy that needs to "control" drivers and make them "slow down and change lanes" because "cyclists can fall, swerve or suddenly leave their path at almost any time."



Serge, Serge, Serge. That's not an assumption. That's a possibility. It needs to happen for your chicken little scenario to play out the way that you describe it.



"But, still, the point is, motorists should not be comfortable passing cyclists, whether they are in bike lanes or not, within 3 feet of them. And cyclists should not be comfortable having motorists go by them that closely, just because they have a stripe of paint separating them. That front tire can blow at any moment, and that could cause you to swerve or fall to your left."

The fear is strong!



Motorists are accustomed to passing many road features, even other road users, with less than three feet of clearance Serge.

There are events and conditions that should cause motorists to take notice, slow down, and adjust lane positions.

I can taste the terror!
And I can taste the obsession

Administrators... does BF have a virtual equivalent of a restraining order?
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Old 08-27-07, 04:26 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Please point to where I have taken Serge's posts out of context.

I mean, it's sweet to see you come to his defense like this so often but if you're going to make a claim like that, you should be able to back it up with some proof, right?
I'm not defending HH, just defending that which he has to say on this forum that I agree with (which isn't everything).

Some examples of you taking things out of context:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ad#post4606463
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ad#post4453978
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ad#post4453135
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ad#post4125971

Ok, I'm tired of reading old threads now.

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
My opinion is based upon my riding experience. Serge makes riding a bike on the road out to be a much more difficult, dangerous, and complicated activity than it actually is.
I think HH has a good middle ground approach to cycling; not just because it's middle ground but because it doesn't oversimplify or over complicate cycling and doesn't under or over stress any of the associated risks. I often hear many people oversimplifying lane position by just saying to ride "near the white line" or "3 feet from the edge of the road" or "on the sidewalk." Those approaches might cover a small section of roads but they hardly deal with what a cyclist is likely to encounter in various areas. Others over complicate cycling by preaching about how roads need bike lanes to be safe and how we need to teach motorists how to treat cyclists before cycling will ever be safe.

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
I think that those types of collisions are exceeding rare and I think that Serge's advice (wiggle waggling, SLOW/STOP, riding in the middle of the lane, etc.) while it perhaps assuages some of his irrational fears, is neutral at best and potentially more harmful at worst.
Potentially harmful how? By implying that cycling is unsafe? Isn't that the entire platforum used by bike lane advocates (which HH is certainly not)? Or by making cyclists use unsafe (in your opinion) lane positions?

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
I place it the category of a boulder rolling down the hillside and taking me out as I ride by.
Is the boulder rolling down the hill and taking out cyclists really as rare as the inadvertent drift in your mind? Is it as rare as the collisions that could have been avoided by cyclists had they just been further left?

I've yet to hear of a boulder taking out an on-road cyclist (who knows about off-road) but I read plenty of stories of inadvertent drifts and lots and lots of right hook collisions. My close calls while cycling have never been caused by riding too far left yet riding too far right has put me in a nasty situation more times than I'd like to admit (which is why I avoid it as much as possible now).
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Old 08-27-07, 04:32 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
I'm done.To the OP and others, sorry for the digression.
It certainly doesnt appear that way.
Have you tried feng shui ?
Switching to decaf ??
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Old 08-27-07, 04:54 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
I was just going by WIkipedia which says the density of Concord is 3,928.39/km≤.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord%2C_California

In any case, it sounds like it's more or less the same, and your contention that the density is significantly higher in San Diego doesn't fly.

And bicycling in the "golden triangle" area is perhaps not for the beginner, but any experienced cyclist should have few if any issues.
The bolded statement above is exactly my point... And what I mean by different areas have different unique requirements.
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Old 08-27-07, 04:59 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
The bolded statement above is exactly my point... And what I mean by different areas have different unique requirements.
Almost any suburban or urban traffic is not appropriate for beginners, Gene. The Golden Triangle area is no different. So I don't understand what you mean.
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Old 08-27-07, 05:14 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
That's what I expected, no proof. Those aren't examples of me taking things out of context Joe. Perhaps you should actually read the search results rather than just searching for"context." I hope this isn't the way you intend to prepare for your "big" trial!
I did read them and I agree that you were taking things out of context in those discussions. Of course you don't agree.

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
We must be reading different forums. Does "Wall of Words" ring a bell?
Do lots of words scare you, Pete?

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Potentially harmful by recommending practices that alienate other roads users, or are of debatable legality and hamper legitimate advocacy efforts
Alienate other road users... Are you afraid that HH is going to turn cyclists into a group that pisses off road users? Ha!

Debateable legality... You've yet to dazzle us with your understanding of the vehicle code. I've posted many times sections of various vehicle codes that clearly state that what HH advocates is perfectly legal. Just because some a-hole cop in Delaware doesn't know the laws make it's legality debateable. This same cop couldn't tell a right turn lane from a bike path.

Hamper legitimate advocacy efforts... How? Do you know have any examples of HH hampering legitmate advocacy efforts? Or are you another poster who thinks HH's WOW's keep the real good stuff from being posted in A&S (such as "cars suck" and "get out of my bike lane")?

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
It equally as debatable as whether cyclists (like the most recently discussed case) could have avoided being creamed if they had been a few feet to the left.

Get it?
I don't think it's equally debateable. Please find some clear cut instance of a rider in the middle of a lane not being seen by the first driver approaching him and getting plowed over. If you think cyclists don't ever ride in the middle of traffic lanes, then perhaps you need to visit more locations. Until I start seeing cyclists getting killed who were riding completely in the way of traffic with the same frequency as cyclists getting killed who were riding completely out of the way of traffic, I won't see the debate as equal.
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Old 08-27-07, 05:26 PM
  #93  
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I used to regularly get tapped in commuting during the old days. Usually a mirror. I've been bumped at low speed in traffic. But at that time I didn't give way and carried weapons.

My ex got hit on purpose.

I had an attempt on me last week, but was able to stop. Car missed by about 6" then pulled to edge of road trying to clip me. It stopped, I stopped. Good track stand. Have to get a carry permit I suppose, although my .380 weighs more than I like. Still, hydroshocks are probably more effective than .22 rounds against psychos.
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Old 08-27-07, 05:30 PM
  #94  
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I thought A&S was where angry people were supposed to hang out.

Sort of like a cage match.
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Old 08-27-07, 05:44 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Do lots of words scare you, Pete?
Nope.
Nope? Only in Peter's Fantasyland!

You make me laugh the way you flail around and try to deny what you have written. Your fear of lots of words is exemplified by every single post of yours.

It must be terrifying to be you.
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Old 08-27-07, 05:50 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Nope. Those "lots of words" sure fly in the face of your "doesn't over complicate" claim though, which was my point.
You are stuck on lots of words = overcomplicate.

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Nope. You do this quite a bit. Make up straw man questions and then answer those questions. It doesn't make you look smart, only petty.
It wasn't intended to be a serious restatement. Honestly, sorry for the confusion. I thought your statement was ridiculous and I was poking fun at it. The truth is, plenty of motorists (although a small percentage of the total) hate cyclists, or anything that slows them down. Riding in the way then moving over after passing traffic has noticed you probably isn't going to have much of an effect on those numbers. Just look at Portland. Tons of bike lanes getting cyclists out of the way almost all the time. Yet still motorists get pissed off when cyclists must be in the way.

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Joe, neither this thread, nor my comments about legality within it are about your "big" trial. Get over your crusade about the cop already.
I only brought it up because I knew that if I didn't, you'd be the first to go post my thread to show how centerish lane position is of debateable legality. Admit it, Pete Still waiting on that interpretation though.

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Joe, you forgot "potentially." Yes potentially hamper legitimate advocacy efforts by riding around like a lunatic on a bike, not riding as far right as practicable because of his fear of bike lanes, etc.
And we're back to your ridiculous statement that I previously addressed (I'm assuming you are referring to motorists thinking he's a lunatic on a bike, right?). I think this is an irrational fear of yours that you should work on getting over. And again, if you understood the laws you'd realize that "as far right as practicable" doesn't even apply in most of the situations where HH is saying to ride outside of the bike lane/shoulder.

Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Of course it's debatable. All you have to do is read the threads that the collision spawned to see the debate.
Key word: equally. People can debate anything.
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Old 08-27-07, 06:11 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
The bolded statement above is exactly my point... And what I mean by different areas have different unique requirements.
It is not as complicated as it sounds... it comes down to the needs of any cyclist to have the ability to respond to whatever situations arise and not be lulled into thinking that blanket responses will apply to all situations. In particular, Peter and some others look at your comments of riding centerish or doing "power weaving" as something you do all the time, whereas while you may attempt to default centerish, you ride for the conditions, which includes riding in Bike Lanes. Further, your techniques are perhaps more called for while riding in a location where "a more experienced cyclist" would call upon such techniques, vice a beginner who might just hug the curb. (I can't help but think of that girl in that La Jolla Village drive situation).

To further illustrate the "unique situations" issue, I am not an off road rider, and I readily admit that there are techniques for riding off road that I am not familiar with, that knowledge of would no doubt make a great difference for me if I were to ride off road.
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Old 08-27-07, 06:13 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Pete ***erlin View Post
Serge, you're grasping at straws. Even more than usual.
I'm sure it seems so when you live in Peter's Fantasyland, where you live in a delusion about your blatant and irrational fear of lots of words. Can't you hear your knees knocking against each other?

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Old 08-27-07, 06:19 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
It is not as complicated as it sounds... it comes down to the needs of any cyclist to have the ability to respond to whatever situations arise and not be lulled into thinking that blanket responses will apply to all situations. In particular, Peter and some others look at your comments of riding centerish or doing "power weaving" as something you do all the time, whereas while you may attempt to default centerish, you ride for the conditions, which includes riding in Bike Lanes. Further, your techniques are perhaps more called for while riding in a location where "a more experienced cyclist" would call upon such techniques, vice a beginner who might just hug the curb. (I can't help but think of that girl in that La Jolla Village drive situation).

To further illustrate the "unique situations" issue, I am not an off road rider, and I readily admit that there are techniques for riding off road that I am not familiar with, that knowledge of would no doubt make a great difference for me if I were to ride off road.
It's doesn't sound complicated at all, but I still don't understand what you mean. What does any of the above have to do with explaining why the skill needs of riding in the golden triangle are significantly different from riding in most any other urban/suburban area, such as those in Contra Costa County?

And if you did learn to ride well off road, not only would that knowledge be helpful when riding off road, but the skills you would learn would come in handy when riding on road, and probably give you more confidence about bike handling skills, particularly in terms of moving at low speeds and evading obstacles.
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Old 08-27-07, 06:51 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
But if he's just a few feet back of the cyclist, about to pass him, when the cyclist suddenly adjusts, there may be no time to adjust.
Maybe learning to ride in a straight line will help improve your safety more than lane-hogging. Keep practicing noob.
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