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11 bicyclists crash into car

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11 bicyclists crash into car

Old 08-29-07, 11:17 AM
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''This is not a safe place to ride a bike at high speeds,'' he added. ``It makes it dangerous for everybody.''
I'd like to hear a rational explanation for why that's the case. Oh wait, there is none. Seriously, how different is a bicycle at 30mph from a motorcycle at 30mph or even a car for that matter? Plus, a pack, 40 strong has to be the size of a big rig truck so the driver @#$%ed-up, plain and simple. You pull out into the road, it's your job to look first! So what if your view is obstructed? Inch the @#$% out until you can see better so you don't kill anyone. Blaming the cyclists here is completely ridiculous and irresponsible.

And HH, please STFU, you're way off base on this one. You seem to be arguing about visibility. Again, what could be more visible than 40 rider pack, regardless of how far right the right-most rider was?
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Old 08-29-07, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
VC???

As long as the vast majority of cyclists continues to ride too far right when faster same direction traffic is not present, I'm going to continue to point out that it's not as safe or as reasonable as they seem to think it is.

+1
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Old 08-29-07, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bushman
+1
Is anyone reading this? What isn't that you don't understand?

Oh, I see, you're blaming it on all the non VC cyclist throughout history who have molded the way that drivers see or don't see cyclists. That's why they were hit. Good deduction there!
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Old 08-29-07, 11:36 AM
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Per b), it goes without mentioning.

Amusing, nonetheless.
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Old 08-29-07, 11:37 AM
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link to the same story with some follow up and a video clip:
https://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI59638/

Last edited by KeyLime; 08-29-07 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 08-29-07, 11:40 AM
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https://www.nbc6.net/news/13997516/de...=headlineclick

Interesting quote (Bek, are you paying attention! ):

"One bicycle rider was driving behind the driver that hit the cyclists"

Al

Last edited by noisebeam; 08-29-07 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 08-29-07, 11:41 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by lfv
This is a tragedy, but from what it sounds like that is an inappropriate place for a group of riders going 30+ mph. Sure, we have the right to do that, but we also have the responsibility to ride in a reasonable manner for our surroundings. It's not unreasonable to expect people to take reasonable precautions for their own safety.
Sounds like? Many of the riders collided with cyclists IN FRONT OF THEM because they were unable to stop in time, even as they applied their brakes.


Still. lets not forget the initial cause of the crash was a vehicle improperly entering the roadway.

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Old 08-29-07, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
If this street really has a bike lane, then it's likely the cyclists were drawn to ride in it or near it - too far to the right - especially given their speed and the absence of other fast traffic. The driver may have looked left and really didn't see them due to the obstructing parked cars if the cyclists were riding too far to their right, which almost all cyclists do.
Once again, your assumptions fly in the face of the evidence that is readily available.

According to the people at the scene (as opposed to your wild as$ guessing), the bike lane was full of parked cars that blocked the view of the driver.

Additionally, the car that pulled in front of the riders was in the middle of the street, overlapping the left turn lane.
Once again, your assumptions about what I said fly in the face of what I clearly said.

You claim my assumptions fly in the face of the evidence that is readily available, but you fail to identify what you think those assumptions are, much less explain why you think they "fly in the face of the evidence".

My assumptions:
  1. bike lane exists (per comments from neighbors)
  2. cyclists tend to ride in or near bike lanes when they exist;, when they are blocked, they tend to make do and ride by habit as near as they can to where they normally ride - too far right (this is a general assumption and does not necessarily apply to this instance).
What evidence flies in the face of these assumptions?

Note that I'm not assuming that (2) necessarily applied in this case. How could I know? I'm just saying that IF this is a typical group of 40 guys riding on a regular route where normally the bike lane is open and they are accustomed to riding in it or near it, then with the parked cars blocking it, it's LIKELY the cyclists were drawn by habit to ride near it - too far to the right - too close to the parked cars.

Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
It sure sounds like 40 guys were rocking along in a group on a single lane road, and a driver pulled out in front of them. High speed equals no place for the riders to go and they smashed into the side of the Subaru.
What we don't know is where the cyclists were positioned on the road and whether that contributed to the crash. We do know these are the possibilities:
  1. They were far left out near the center stripe, and the guy looked and still couldn't see them (hard to believe given the picture you showed).
  2. They were far left out near the center stripe, and the guy looked, could see could see at least some of them, but did not notice them.
  3. They were far left out near the center stripe, and the guy didn't look.
  4. They were far too far to the right, and the guy looked and still couldn't see them (because they were too far right).
  5. They were far too far to the right, and the guy looked, could see at least some of them, but did not notice them.
  6. They were far too far to the right, and the guy didn't look.

Can you think of any realistic possibilites that are not covered by the above? Which do you think are more or less likely?
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Old 08-29-07, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by San Rensho
Are you going to accept the reported facts, or are you going to go on one of your very pridictable "BUT IF THEY WERE...." diatribes.

They were not riding in the bike lane, every single article says the bike lane was full of parked cars and was claimed by the driver to be the reason he did not see the peleton.

This ride is a fast ride/training race, with around 40 riders, they were taking up the whole road, not all over to the right hugging the parked cars.

Would you argue the facts as given and not the facts that you imagine.
Would you please argue the facts as given and not the facts that you imagine?

I have not made any assertions about what happened. You have, such as: they were taking up the whole road. There is no evidence that that is the case. Note that I have NOT asserted the opposite.

40 is a pretty big group, but at 30 mph it can get pretty stretched out. There is no guarantee that they were taking up the whole road, and if they were really going 30-35, that's actually quite unlikely (I'm assuming this was not a group of pros). Given that only 17 of the 30 crashed, that's evidence (not proof) that they were in one or two lines, not bunched up taking up the whole road.

Also, of course they weren't in the bike lane if it's true that bike lane was blocked with parked cars. I didn't say anything to the contrary. Note that you can't cite any words of mine where I said anything to the contrary. I will say (again) that if there is a bike lane on this road (I'm not even assuming there is that), then they are probably accustomed to riding in or near it, per FL law. Given them being accustomed to riding in the bike lane, when it is blocked by parked cars they are likely to be riding near the parked cars. That's just based on observing cyclist behavior for many, many years. I might be wrong, of course. Unlike you and your absolute assertions, I'm only talking in terms of how things are likely to have happened. More impotantly, IF that's what is happened (regardless of whether that's what did happen) how one might prevent having that happen to them (ride further left to improve to/from sight lines and conspicuity).
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Old 08-29-07, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Once again, your assumptions about what I said fly in the face of what I clearly said.

You claim my assumptions fly in the face of the evidence that is readily available, but you fail to identify what you think those assumptions are, much less explain why you think they "fly in the face of the evidence".

My assumptions:
  1. bike lane exists (per comments from neighbors)
  2. cyclists tend to ride in or near bike lanes when they exist;, when they are blocked, they tend to make do and ride by habit as near as they can to where they normally ride - too far right (this is a general assumption and does not necessarily apply to this instance).
What evidence flies in the face of these assumptions?

Note that I'm not assuming that (2) necessarily applied in this case. How could I know? I'm just saying that IF this is a typical group of 40 guys riding on a regular route where normally the bike lane is open and they are accustomed to riding in it or near it, then with the parked cars blocking it, it's LIKELY the cyclists were drawn by habit to ride near it - too far to the right - too close to the parked cars.


What we don't know is where the cyclists were positioned on the road and whether that contributed to the crash. We do know these are the possibilities:
  1. They were far left out near the center stripe, and the guy looked and still couldn't see them (hard to believe given the picture you showed).
  2. They were far left out near the center stripe, and the guy looked, could see could see at least some of them, but did not notice them.
  3. They were far left out near the center stripe, and the guy didn't look.
  4. They were far too far to the right, and the guy looked and still couldn't see them (because they were too far right).
  5. They were far too far to the right, and the guy looked, could see at least some of them, but did not notice them.
  6. They were far too far to the right, and the guy didn't look.

Can you think of any realistic possibilites that are not covered by the above? Which do you think are more or less likely?
I'm sure that if it was a pack of 40 Helmet Heads riding (VC style of course) there isn't a snow-balls chance in hell that an accident would have happened. (that's all we need is 40 helmet heads...)

Get off your podium for just one stinking minute. Your arguments are a mix between a those of a 6th grader and a lawyer...
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Old 08-29-07, 11:57 AM
  #36  
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obviously it wasn't safe. how do i know that? because there was a mass pile up of cyclists based a completly normal and common obstacle (turning car).

sure, the car shouldn't have been there. but it could easily have been a pedestrian, a dog running out, or whatever. the fact remains that if you cannot control your vehicle (be it a bike, car, scooter, whatever) then you're putting yourself and others at risk.

i can't tell you how many cars pull out in front of me on a daily basis. do i crash into them? no. do i join a high speed peloton going at race speeds down the street? no.
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Old 08-29-07, 11:58 AM
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Here's another link: https://video.nbc6.net/player/?id=149887
Note that the cop on the scene said it was clearly the driver's fault, and that he violated the cyclists' right of way. He's lucky it wasn't a cement truck coming down the road; he would have suffered the same fate as that of the cyclists. Note also that the reporter said this is a "popular bike path". That means that motorists there should not drive around cluelessly.

I also noted that the cop saw that cars were in the bike lane, but apparently they won't even get a parking ticket.

No matter how careful you are, if some idiot pulls out directly in front of you, whether you are a cyclist or a motorist, there's going to be trouble. The blame is rightfully assigned to the one who violates the other's right of way, not to the victims of that person's inattention or negligence.

It is not "normal" for people to dart right in front of you when you're going in the middle of the lane. That's ridiculous. If that were normal, traffic in the cities would routinely go no faster than 10 mph.
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Old 08-29-07, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Would you please argue the facts as given and not the facts that you imagine?

I have not made any assertions about what happened. You have, such as: they were taking up the whole road. There is no evidence that that is the case. Note that I have NOT asserted the opposite.

40 is a pretty big group, but at 30 mph it can get pretty stretched out. There is no guarantee that they were taking up the whole road, and if they were really going 30-35, that's actually quite unlikely (I'm assuming this was not a group of pros). Given that only 17 of the 30 crashed, that's evidence (not proof) that they were in one or two lines, not bunched up taking up the whole road.

Also, of course they weren't in the bike lane if it's true that bike lane was blocked with parked cars. I didn't say anything to the contrary. Note that you can't cite any words of mine where I said anything to the contrary. I will say (again) that if there is a bike lane on this road (I'm not even assuming there is that), then they are probably accustomed to riding in or near it, per FL law. Given them being accustomed to riding in the bike lane, when it is blocked by parked cars they are likely to be riding near the parked cars. That's just based on observing cyclist behavior for many, many years. I might be wrong, of course. Unlike you and your absolute assertions, I'm only talking in terms of how things are likely to have happened. More impotantly, IF that's what is happened (regardless of whether that's what did happen) how one might prevent having that happen to them (ride further left to improve to/from sight lines and conspicuity).
Did you miss the part about the car swinging into the left turn lane?

You don't have a job do you? Does someone pay you to hang out here all day picking fights?
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Old 08-29-07, 12:00 PM
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Maybe its a just a geographical thing that only us S.FL riders know about (facetious).....
Cars drivers here WILL most definitely, with arrogance, pull out in front of a 'lesser'
vehicle. I can easily see dopey S. Fl driver who has trained themselves to ignore bike
riders pulling out from the driveway like they always do but misjudging the speed
of the approaching horde because this time it wasn't the three landscapers or family on
a recreational ride that they are accustomed to being inconvenienced by.
Miami wasnt voted roadrage/bad driving capitol of the US for nothing.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:00 PM
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Local club requires this:

"When in the [club ride], you will:

Ride no more than two riders side by side, tight to the right side of the road. If by riding two by two you are impeding traffic, drop to single file.

... If you don't want to ride legally and safely, you have selected the wrong group to join
"

Al
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Old 08-29-07, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bike monkey
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
If they were in the bike lane or riding nearly adjacent to parked cars, then, yes, they were riding too fast. In urban/suburban environments with hidden alleys and driveways like that, going any faster than 15 mph in the bike lane or near it is too fast. You need to be out in the traffic lane where the sight lines are much better and you are more conspicuous.
Have you not been reading any of this? Do you just spout crap out of your mouth for the sake of arguing? They weren't in the bike lane. It was a pack of riders.

Go stir ***** up at the VC board where you belong...
Have I not been reading any of this? Have you? Can you even read what you quote? Can you comprehend it? What part of or riding nearly adjacent to parked cars do you not understand?

I simply chose the "in the bike lane or riding nearly adjacent to parked cars" wording because I didn't want to assume that the evidence about the bike lane filled with parked cars was necessarily accurate. Either way, unless they were out in the lane towards the center of the road they were riding too fast.

Last edited by Helmet Head; 08-29-07 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Here's just one piece of evidence Serge:

"Additionally, the car that pulled in front of the riders was in the middle of the street, overlapping the left turn lane."
Originally Posted by bike monkey
Did you miss the part about the car swinging into the left turn lane?
Why do you guys think that there is something significant about the guy pulling out or swinging into the left turn lane?
All that means is that at the point when he decided to pull out, he didn't look, didn't see, or didn't notice the cyclists, and pulled out. Once he decided to pull out, he ended up blocking the whole lane, sure. So what? That has nothing to do with the likelihood of him seeing and noticing the cyclists had they been further left.

IF he pulled out because he did not notice them because they were too far right, then I think it's reasonable to presume the he would not have pulled out in front of them if they were further left and more likely to have been noticed. Why is this so difficult to accept?

P.S. You're the one picking a fight with me.

Last edited by Helmet Head; 08-29-07 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:12 PM
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Not to make a case for the motorist, but I would definitely like to point out the video from the link to 7 News for a visual look at the scene. The second vehicle to the left of the exit, parked in the BL, was a Ford Econoline van that does a good job of obscuring the view of traffic coming from the left (from the motorist's perspective) and traffic exiting the residences (from the cyclist's perspective). Here's a rough sketch:



The grey vehicle is the Escape, the red, a parked vehicle ahead of the Econoline, and the white vehicle behind the red, the Econoline itself.

If I know Miami motorists correctly, the driver of the Ford Escape, faced with the Econoline's blind spot, most likely decided to wing it, and pulled out into the lane without pulling their nose out for a better look - hoping that nothing (cyclist or otherwise) was approaching.

Take care,

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Old 08-29-07, 12:14 PM
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Imagine you're driving down the freeway at 4am in the rightmost lane, going 65 mph. All of a sudden, a drunk comes up an exit lane going the wrong way, headed right toward you. You have a headon collision and die.

Now imagine that a bunch of people, instead of blaming the drunk driver, blame YOU, saying things like, "well, it was 4am - you should have been on the lookout for drunks" or "gee, if you had been in the left hand lane, you would have seen him on time."

Ridiculous. The drunk is at fault. End of story.

Why is this any different? Here is a guy who darts out right into the middle of the street without even looking. He didn't "see" the peloton? PUUUHHHLEEEAAASSSEEE! LOL, give me a break. If you can't see a peloton of 40 bicycles barreling down the street, then you shouldn't be driving at all, because you're obviously blind as a bat.

I wouldn't be surprised if the real reason he didn't "see" them is that he was looking down at his cell phone about to dial a number.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:14 PM
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Here I ride there sometimes. Had I been that day I probably would have been dropped by the peloton as they passed 25mph.

The place is ideal for training: The loop is 4 miles, the bike lane extends all through and is wide enough to accomodate 3 riders side by side. This is one of the safest places to ride in Miami.

I hope some idiots don't use this accident as an excuse to eliminate the bike lane.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Chaco
Here's another link: https://video.nbc6.net/player/?id=149887
Note that the cop on the scene said it was clearly the driver's fault, and that he violated the cyclists' right of way. He's lucky it wasn't a cement truck coming down the road; he would have suffered the same fate as that of the cyclists. Note also that the reporter said this is a "popular bike path". That means that motorists there should not drive around cluelessly.

I also noted that the cop saw that cars were in the bike lane, but apparently they won't even get a parking ticket.

No matter how careful you are, if some idiot pulls out directly in front of you, whether you are a cyclist or a motorist, there's going to be trouble. The blame is rightfully assigned to the one who violates the other's right of way, not to the victims of that person's inattention or negligence.

It is not "normal" for people to dart right in front of you when you're going in the middle of the lane. That's ridiculous. If that were normal, traffic in the cities would routinely go no faster than 10 mph.
I haven't seen any evidence that they were in the middle of the lane, much less left of the middle of the lane which is normally occupied by the left side of cars and for which the driver was likely to have been checking.

In other words, even if they were in the middle of the lane, given the parked cars blocking sight lines and the speed at which they were apparently traveling, that might not have been far enough left.

And no one, certainly not a cop, is going to start blaming cyclists for riding too far right. They don't was us further left, even if that makes us safer, because that might make them slow down more often for us. So of course they are going to blame the motorist.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:18 PM
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The whole thing is obviously helmet head's fault for wasting his time here preaching to cyclist about how they should ride, rather than educating motorists on how to get their heads out of their *****es.

I wasted too much time already. I think I'm going to go for a ride...in a bike lane...
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Old 08-29-07, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Chaco
....

Ridiculous. The drunk is at fault. End of story.

Why is this any different? .....

To me the added issue here is that many of the cyclists collided with each other while trying to use their brakes in time to stop immediately. I have no sympathy for tail gators. To me, the driver who cut in front is at fault for the cyclists immediately impacted. The rest can lick their wounded pride.

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Old 08-29-07, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Chaco
Why is this any different? Here is a guy who darts out right into the middle of the street without even looking. He didn't "see" the peloton? PUUUHHHLEEEAAASSSEEE! LOL, give me a break. If you can't see a peloton of 40 bicycles barreling down the street, then you shouldn't be driving at all, because you're obviously blind as a bat.
Not sure if you saw my post on the bottom of Page #2 (post #50), but if you have a look at the 7-News video, you'll see that some @$$ parked a Ford Econoline two spaces down from the exit of that community, creating a blind spot. As I said in my earlier post, in typical Miami fashion, the driver of the Ford Escape probably decided to wing it blindly, and hope nothing (cyclist or otherwise) was coming.

Take care,

-Kurt
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Old 08-29-07, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
That's not what I wrote Serge.
What isn't what you wrote? You mentioned the car in the turn lane, and I'm merely asking why you thought that was significant enough to mention.


Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
His car was overlapping the left turn lane, as in he was perpendicular to the path of travel of the cyclists with the front of his overlapping the the left turn lane, and the cyclists struck the car when it was on the left side of the lane.

If the cyclists weren't riding on the left side of the lane, how did they impact the car when it was on the left side of the lane?

p.s. The driver's view of the roadway was obscured by a large van as well.
Ah, now I understand your point (which you perhaps tried but did not clearly explain before).

A typical car is about 15 feet long, right? A standard traffic lane is 11-13 feet wide. Just because the front of his car was partially encroaching in the left turn lane doesn't mean he wasn't blocking most if not all of the lane, especially considering the parked cars. Also, he is likely to have kept moving at least a few feet after initial impact.

That's how it's possible for the cyclists riding near the right side of the road to have impacted the car even though it ended up on the left side of the lane.

Last edited by Helmet Head; 08-29-07 at 12:33 PM.
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