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11 bicyclists crash into car

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11 bicyclists crash into car

Old 08-29-07, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Given that only 17 of the 30 crashed, that's evidence (not proof) that they were in one or two lines, not bunched up taking up the whole road.
So your theory is that a car pulls out in front a single line of bikes, and they run into it one after the other until rider #18 finally gets stopped.

If this makes sense to you, I'm glad I don't ride with your club.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
So your theory is that a car pulls out in front a single line of bikes, and they run into it one after the other until rider #18 finally gets stopped.

If this makes sense to you, I'm glad I don't ride with your club.
If they're going 30 mph, that can easily happen.
More likely they were in roughly 2 lines, so the first nine guys in each line crashed.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Do not blame me for your reading comprehension challenges and your bias towards making assumptions that only jive with your warped worldview.



You are hilarious.

Even if he rolled a few feet forward after being hit by the cyclists, that still puts them in the center, or the right side, of the roadway.

It's time to buy you a clue.

Watch the video that is linked on this page:

https://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI59638/

You might want to pause it at 1:15.

Good luck. You're going to need it!



That the driver swung into the left turn lane.
I can't view the video for some reason. You're going to have to explain it in words.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
That the driver swung into the left turn lane.
I never said that's what YOU wrote. I quoted to guys who mentioned the basically the same thing using slightly different wording, and I inquired as to why you guys that it was significant, using some wording from each. Look at the post again. I'll color code it for you.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:49 PM
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I cant see the Vid either.....but this is telling :

"If that van's parked there, it's hard to get out and see if anybody's coming," said Roxanne Costello. Although, after she though about it for a second, she did think it would be hard for a driver to miss the mass of bicycles riding down the street. "But apparently it was 50 bikes, anybody could have seen it"
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Old 08-29-07, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
No, we didn't write the same thing with different wording, despite the fact that you processed it that way.

You are responsible for your lack of comprehension Serge.
I didn't say you wrote the same thing. I said you basically mentioned the same thing.

Here is the original post of mine, with both of your quotes, color coded for you this time.

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Here's just one piece of evidence Serge:

"Additionally, the car that pulled in front of the riders was in the middle of the street, overlapping the left turn lane."
Originally Posted by bike monkey
Did you miss the part about the car swinging into the left turn lane?
Why do you guys think that there is something significant about the guy pulling out or swinging into the left turn lane?
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Old 08-29-07, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
His car was overlapping the left turn lane, as in he was perpendicular to the path of travel of the cyclists with the front of his overlapping the the left turn lane, and the cyclists struck the car when it was on the left side of the lane.

p.s. The driver's view of the roadway was obscured by a large van as well.
So?

Just because the front of his car was partially encroaching in the left turn lane doesn't mean he wasn't blocking most if not all of the lane, especially considering the parked cars. Also, he is likely to have kept moving at least a few feet after initial impact.
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Old 08-29-07, 01:10 PM
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Peter, if you think bike monkey was trying to make a significantly different point with his "swing into the left lane" language from the one you made with your "pulled in front of the riders was in the middle of the street, overlapping the left turn lane" language, you're going to have to spell out what that was.
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Old 08-29-07, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Chaco
Imagine you're driving down the freeway at 4am in the rightmost lane, going 65 mph. All of a sudden, a drunk comes up an exit lane going the wrong way, headed right toward you. You have a headon collision and die.

Now imagine that a bunch of people, instead of blaming the drunk driver, blame YOU, saying things like, "well, it was 4am - you should have been on the lookout for drunks" or "gee, if you had been in the left hand lane, you would have seen him on time."

Ridiculous. The drunk is at fault. End of story.

Why is this any different? Here is a guy who darts out right into the middle of the street without even looking.....
Who is at fault is not important. The question is what you should do. Regardless of what people should do, the reality is they pull in front of cyclists all the time even if they see them. It is so common that I presume that everybody is going to do it. Paranoid? Absolutely. But it's an attitude that's saved my bacon many times. I do not like riding in town specifically because the density of idiot drivers is so high (there are also plenty of idiot cyclists to watch out for).

Even if a bike lane is provided, I tend to take the lane. I have found that if you are in the traffic lane, motorists are less likely to pull right in front of you or perform a right hook. However, it still happens often enough that you need to be ready for it at all times.

Your ability to impact motorist behavior is minimal, and you should do what you can. In the meantime, be ready for what you know is what can happen. With regards to your drunk going down the exit ramp, I would think you should be able to spot something is wrong because if you're still on the freeway, you have time to bail (unless you don't watch very far ahead), and if you are on the ramp itself, you can probably get away from bailing on the inside of the curve.

Having said all that, some accidents are unavoidable. However, it is how you react when things/people aren't as they shouldn't be when your skills are really tested.

What do you think would have happened to this peloton if a dog ran out in the street or kids suddenly darted out? Never saw that happen before......
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Old 08-29-07, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
(IMAGE from Channel 7 news)
Pete, how did you get the screengrab? I tried over here with no results.

-Kurt
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Old 08-29-07, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
cudak888- I don't think it's possible to grab a frame from an asx stream playing in Windows Media Player. I did it the ole fashioned way. Paused the video and used a camera for a true screen shot.
Couldn't you just do a crtl-print screen or crtl-alt-print screen?
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Old 08-29-07, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
cudak888- I don't think it's possible to grab a frame from an asx stream playing in Windows Media Player. I did it the ole fashioned way. Paused the video and used a camera for a true screen shot.
Couldn't you also (in PC world) pause video, do a "Ctrl-Print Screen" and paste into photo editor, crop out non-video and save .jpg?

edit: JJ beat me to it. Now I wonder why it can't be done

edit2: I tried that method and that was strange, it leaves the video frozen in one place on screen (after paste) and the screen capture part can be moved around it, with a 'window' where the video was, that shows the video if lined up with it. I learn everyday on BF!

Al

Last edited by noisebeam; 08-29-07 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 08-29-07, 02:06 PM
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How embarrassing it must be for you Floridians.
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Old 08-29-07, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sygyzy
How embarrassing it must be for you Floridians.
"Come on down, the water's fine!"
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Old 08-29-07, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by San Rensho

Would you argue the facts as given and not the facts that you imagine.
That'll be the day....
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Old 08-29-07, 03:51 PM
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Everything about this entire thread is sickening. The event is sickening. The soapboxing based on complete speculation is sickening. The standard for handing out licenses in Florida is sickening.

Think I'll go barf.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
If this street really has a bike lane, then it's likely the cyclists were drawn to ride in it or near it - too far to the right - especially given their speed and the absence of other fast traffic.
Making as assumption about the cyclist's lane position: CHECK

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The driver may have looked left and really didn't see them due to the obstructing parked cars if the cyclists were riding too far to their right, which almost all cyclists do.
Assumption that if a driver doesn't see a cyclist, it must be the cyclist's fault: CHECK

Assumption that said cyclists don't know as much about lane positioning as Serge: CHECK

Yep, this has all the hallmarks of yet another HH thread-jacking. Goodonya, sh*tforbrains.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:23 PM
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Executive Summary:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
If ..then it's likely...especially...may have ...
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Old 08-29-07, 05:28 PM
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More executive summary:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
There is no guarantee...if...quite unlikely (I'm assuming...Given...if it's true...if...then they are probably...Given...they are likely...I might be wrong, of course...I'm only talking in terms of how things are likely to have happened.... IF
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Old 08-29-07, 05:30 PM
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And another Executive Summary:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
IF...then I think it's reasonable to presume...if...Why is this so difficult to accept?
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Old 08-29-07, 05:39 PM
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What is the matter with you people? You act like there is something obviously wrong or inappropriate with making assumptions and talking about the hypothetical situations based on those assumptions being true, and the likelihood of those assumptions actually being true.

I got news for you. None of us were there. We don't know exactly what happened. We will never know exactly what happened. Why does that matter? Hypothesizing about what might have happened, based on what apparently happened, or what was most reasonably likely to have happened, is as good as it gets for a jury. It's certainly as good as it gets here.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Allister
Making as assumption about the cyclist's lane position: CHECK
Do you understand what an assumption is?

Consider this statement:

If a nuclear device exploded right next to you, then you are probably dead.

Do you agree that's a true statement? Is it based on the assumption that you are dead? No. Is it based on the assumption that a nuclear device exploded? No. Yet it's still true.

Now consider my statement:
If this street really has a bike lane, then it's likely the cyclists were drawn to ride in it or near it - too far to the right - especially given their speed and the absence of other fast traffic.

Do you agree that's a true statement? Whether it's true or not, Is it's veracity based on any assumption about the cyclists' actual lane position? No.


Originally Posted by Allister
Assumption that if a driver doesn't see a cyclist, it must be the cyclist's fault: CHECK

Assumption that said cyclists don't know as much about lane positioning as Serge: CHECK

Yep, this has all the hallmarks of yet another HH thread-jacking. Goodonya, sh*tforbrains.
Nothing I said was predicated on any of these assumptions.

Does someone really have to be an engineer, or schooled in logic and reason in some manner, to understand the way I think and write?
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Old 08-29-07, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Do you understand what an assumption is?

Consider this statement:

If a nuclear device exploded right next to you, then you are probably dead.

Do you agree that's a true statement? Is it based on the assumption that you are dead? No. Is it based on the assumption that a nuclear device exploded? No. Yet it's still true.

Now consider my statement:
If this street really has a bike lane, then it's likely the cyclists were drawn to ride in it or near it - too far to the right - especially given their speed and the absence of other fast traffic.

Do you agree that's a true statement? Whether it's true or not, Is it's veracity based on any assumption about the cyclists' actual lane position? No.
Oh, I see how this works.

IF unicorns were prancing in the bike lane, then that might explain why the driver didn't see the cyclists.


Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Does someone really have to be an engineer, or schooled in logic and reason in some manner, to understand the way I think and write?
Classic Helmet Head!
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Old 08-29-07, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Order
Oh, I see how this works.

IF unicorns were prancing in the bike lane, then that might explain why the driver didn't see the cyclists.
Now you're catching on. Of course the appropriate discussion is about the likelihood of the condition in question, in this case: unicorns were prancing in the bike lane.

You see, I agree that IF unicorns were prancing in the bike lane, then that might explain why the driver didn't see the cyclists.

I am quite certain, however, that unicorns were not prancing in the bike lane.


That is how you analyze these types of statements. You don't dismiss them out of hand.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Now consider my statement:
If this street really has a bike lane, then it's likely the cyclists were drawn to ride in it or near it - too far to the right - especially given their speed and the absence of other fast traffic.

Do you agree that's a true statement?
No. It's speculation.

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Whether it's true or not, Is it's veracity based on any assumption about the cyclists' actual lane position? No.
For any lessons to be gained from this incident, then knowing the cyclist's actual lane position would be useful. Until you know all the facts, anything you say based on what is 'likely' is worthless.

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Does someone really have to be an engineer, or schooled in logic and reason in some manner, to understand the way I think and write?
I doubt it. You obviously aren't.
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