genec

But Al how can you strongly influence drivers that are "blind" due to inattention blindness... if motorists just are not looking... being conspicuous just doesn't matter. You could be an elephant on the road and still not be seen by some drivers.

noisebeam

True, did I ever say otherwise? What I am saying is that one can do things to improve the chances of being seen/noticed and if one is seen/noticed one is less likely to be plowed into or right hooked relative to not being noticed.

Al

noisebeam

I am only talking about averages. Would this be better?
"Some cyclists believe that they are able to strongly influence whether or not they are seen by most drivers, just by adjusting position on the roadway." where most could be 'the average driver'

The point is that one is on average more likely to be noticed. Not always, not by everyone, no guarantees.

And for the expected follow on question of what about those that don't notice: If the signs are not there of not being noticed, respond accordingly. And those signs will be much more apparent from faster same direction driver/vehicles if using a centerish lane position vs a far right position.

Al

RobertHurst

In my experience, the influence of lane position on visibility is marginal, not strong. As I said, I do a substantial percentage of my riding in the middle lanes of busy five-laners. I have been overlooked plenty of times while riding in the middle lanes or near the center of narrow streets. I lost my innocence on that issue a long, long time ago. Ask any motorcyclist how reliable is their central positioning in ensuring visibility.

I hear people slipping into dependence on other road users for something that other road users can not be counted on to deliver -- reliable vision and attention. When making lane positioning decisions, consider the things that you YOU can control through lane position, your own sightlines, your safety buffer to inevitable intrusions, and back-burner those things which you can't ultimately control through lane position, like the vision of other road users. In the end you will be in the maximally visible and conspicuous position just the same, so I don't see what all the bluster is about. Eliminate the middleman.

R.

Helmet Head

Can you quantify "plenty of times", Robert, please? In particular, what percentage of motorists would you estimate overlook you when you are in the middle of the lane, versus when you're riding near the right tire track or in the margin?

And how high would that percentage have to be to contradict Al's contention, "Some cyclists believe that they are able to strongly influence whether or not they are seen by most drivers, just by adjusting position on the roadway." ?

noisebeam

Almost all of my riding is on multi lane roads using the centerish position in outer lane. I have not yet been overlooked. The vast majority of drivers move into adjacent lane long before they get to me. A few don't but I still notice them move left within lane or slowing. I do expect that someone may not notice me, I have on rare occasions moved far right evasively if it is not fully obvious if I am noticed or not, in those cases I was passed with good clearance as the driver had noticed me and moved a bit left as well.

Al

dynaryder

In order to understand recursive....

....one must first understand recursive.

Helmet Head

I have to say, I too have not been overlooked even once in the last 2 or 3 years. Never-the-less, I apply trust but verify to every motorist I encounter upon whose attention my safety is soon to depend.

Before I changed my riding style to use a default lane position that maximizes conspicuity, being overlooked was a fairly regular occurrence, just as it apparently currently is for Robert.

RobertHurst

See, you are talking about the possibility of being overlooked by same direction traffic. I'm not.

In urban environments, being overlooked by a driver approaching from behind is extremely rare compared to being overlooked by crossing traffic, incl. pedestrians.

R.

noisebeam

I could have written the same about x-traffic. In fact I find a far from curb position to be much more effective at stopping cross traffic (including left crosses) when they are legally required to vs. a far right.

Even more so I notice this effect when riding with moderate (4-6) size groups where the default position is nearly always far right. In this situation the group has often been overlooked (close calls, but never a collision so far) by left crosses and right entering drivers. Even the larger size of the group vs. me solo does not make up for the far right position.

Al

Helmet Head

That's a really good point, Al. I have to agree that my experience confirms that the conspicuity advantage (to x-traffic) of conspicuous lane positioning trumps the conspicuity advantage of a group over a solo rider.

For the record, I have not been overlooked while riding conspicuously positioned by cross-traffic as well as by traffic from behind in at least 2-3 years. But of course I use trust but verify never-the-less.

RobertHurst

What must the motorcyclists be doing wrong then, I wonder. Not waggling it enough?

I went over this with HHH a while back (he forgot) and I did a long experiment to determine just how often I am overlooked, by a driver or a pedestrian, while riding in a clearly central position in the roadway. I didn't count those instances which occurred while I was riding in a 'secondary position' or when I was on the sidewalk, riding the wrong way, or otherwise breaking the law. Turns out I am obviously overlooked in a central position, and am forced to take some sort of evasive action, about once for every eight hours of riding. That's a few times per week for me. The frequency could be much less for a rider who commutes through the suburbs, where wayward pedestrians are few, and much much less for a recreational rider who sticks to favored routes. One of these riders could easily go years without encountering such an event.

However rare these events are for any given rider, they will be the most critical moments of that rider's cycling life. You can minimize these instances to an extent (to a very limited extent through lane position alone) but the fundamental reality stays the same. Cycling safety is not about being seen by drivers -- that's an impossible dream -- it's about being ready for those few drivers who will fail to notice your presence, no matter where you happen to be on the roadway.

Robert

genec

The last paragraph then supports exactly what Hurst has said all along... don't ride to increase conspicuousness (jeeze is this even a word), ride to increase your buffer and reaction space to traffic, the conspicuousness increases anyway.

This was noted several pages back when HH admitted that the end results were nearly the same... a conspicuous well "centered" position on the roadway. (centered is in quotes as you may not actually be centered).

Helmet Head

How does Al's paragraph support the idea that you shouldn't "ride to increase conspicuousness"?

Huh?

I've argued they might be the same in theory, but not in practice. See the following post for the underlying issue. I contend that the fundamental problem with pure space maximization thinking which excludes thinking about conspicuity is that it depends on the cyclist noticing a hazard or potential hazard, and having time to react, before he adjusts for it. Robert denies this, but won't, so far at least, explain how a cyclist can adjust for something which he has not yet noticed.

Helmet Head

Robert, you've not answered this yet. This is the 3rd time I'm asking.

The following question is still outstanding:

genec

How can you ride to increase conspicuousness when the very motorists you are trying to get to notice your conspicuousness may have inattention blindness...

You must then react to that motorist by maximizing space... therefore you are dependent on you the cyclist actually noticing the hazards, not just trying to improve your visibility.

To put it brutally simply... if you are riding centerish to improve your visibility, and a motorist doesn't see you and react accordingly, then indeed YOU have to maximize your space... and you are dependent on noticing that hazard... irrelevant of how visible you thought you were.

Allister

You can't, no matter where in the lane you're riding. That's why it's important to PAY ATTENTION.

Helmet Head

First, that's like asking, how can you improve the vision of people with glasses when some might be blind? Just because some might not notice you even if you are positioned conspicuously doesn't mean there is no value with riding conspicuously.

Besides, even those with inattention blindness are more likely to notice a cyclist who is relevant to them, and riding where they are most likely to be paying attention is the best way to achieve relevance (though of course it does not guarantee it).


But that's true with one motorist, at most, every few years if you believe me or Al, or one motorist every 8 hours of riding in heavy urban traffic if you believe Robert. But in either case, the vast, vast majority of drivers are not going to hit you even if you never noticed them.

The point of defaulting to a centerish position to increase visibility/predictability is twofold:

1. To maximize your conspicuity so that the likelihood of being overlooked is minimized.
2. To be near (if not already at) a position of space maximization relative to a hazard or potential hazard even before you've noticed it.

Helmet Head

Of course you can't adjust for something which you have not yet noticed.

Yet Robert says space maximization relative to a given hazard or potential hazard does not depend on the cyclist noticing it, and having time to react, before he adjusts for it. To me, that implies adjusting for something which you have not yet noticed.

genec

Just like being visible to those motorists that aren't looking.

The differences between what you are touting and what Hurst is touting are minuscule... Yeah you say in theory... and I say in practice... So internally the attitude is different. Big deal... I think I am Superman sometimes when I ride... I doubt there is any difference in my actual riding style. (although the red cape does present more drag).

Allister

And yet it is you that claims that lane positioning for conspicuity puts cyclists in a better place to avoid hazards even when their attention wanders. You're adjusting position for something that you not only haven't noticed, but doesn't even exist other than in potential, vis.

No he hasn't, and I went looking. That sentence doesn't even make any sense.

What he's saying, I think, is that hazard avoidance is a lesser criteria for choosing your lane position. The most important thing you can do to avoid hazards is to keep your wits about you, and be ready. Lane position may give a small advantage, but other, more important things may override choosing a position more into the lane at the time.

You're an idiot, Serge.

In fact, when you claim that these 'only human' riders with fallible attention spans should be riding in a position for maximum conspicuity, so that even if they don't notice a hazard, the hazard will notice them, that is exactly what you are advocating.

Laika

I think it was pretty clear by his last response to you that he's not playing anymore. He's taken his ball and gone home.

urban_assault

To this whole thread. Someone PM me when it hits page 70 and someone adds another "whenever possible" or leaves out the words "maximizing conspicuity from a post.

Bekologist

Flippin' HILARIOUS! Head, you have admitted by inference you

a)don't ride much; and

b)must slow down, A LOT, when you ride, to get what you think is a 'verify' from motorists. what do you do, wave at them until they wave back?

On my ride home tonight, I counted AT LEAST 4 instances I had no way of 'verifying' a motorist had seen me from a side street. Sure, they were stopped, I was running a BRIGHT light on flash, I was in the center of the lane, and even on the yellow stripe, and there is

no way a bicyclist can verify SQUAT about motorists.

a bicyclist doesn't get to 'verify' anything. you need to 'trust' the motorist isn't going to go when you approach their grill, head. even in the middle of the road, you have no ability to 'verify' the motorist isn't going to violate your right of way. trust? necessary to travel on a bicycle. verify? a worthless fallacy you perpetuate.

and not being overlooked even once in 2 years? You are fooling yourself and this forum about both your bicycling skill and experience. what, a half hour commute a couple of times a week during nice weather, and weekend club and 'training' rides with other LCI fumblefoots?

It's dark now at 6 p.m. in San Diego, head. on your occasional commute a half hour to and fro, what lights are you running to not be 'overlooked'?

Bicyclists get overlooked, head. middle of the road, middle of the lane, left crossed, right hooked, despite road position. Of course, it never happens to you. I see the glare of inexperience in your pompous, brash attitude about lane position virtually ensuring your 'visibility' while on a bicycle.

(if you've been muddling your motoring with your bicycling yet again, i can understand your confusion. how much driving this week, head?)

urban_assault

Thanks a lot...now we will get a 5 paragraph explanation of what the definition of "overlooked".

I'll get it started...

By overlooked, I am referring to the fact that I have not been run over by a car because I was in the middle of the lane. I stop and wave to each car that is overtaking me and record whether they wave back, thus verifying that I was not overlooked. In Hurst's book, he states that... where did I state or imply...that goes without saying... Figures...But I don't think...straw man...

Just fill in the blanks.