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Are you happier without bike facilities?

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Are you happier without bike facilities?

Old 03-21-08, 12:14 PM
  #426  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
THC - are these roads where you get harassment mostly with wide sharable lanes or narrow ones?
Al
From what I have experienced and what has been reported it seem the majority of the problem (of harassment) exists on multi-lane (same direction) narrow lanes (9'-10') with traffic light enough that opportunities for motoring traffic to change lanes is abundant, speed limit is 30-35mph. Parking lanes may have some showing in this as it seems to be expected for cyclists to ride in the door zone.
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Old 03-21-08, 12:32 PM
  #427  
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Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
From what I have experienced and what has been reported it seem the majority of the problem (of harassment) exists on multi-lane (same direction) narrow lanes (9'-10') with traffic light enough that opportunities for motoring traffic to change lanes is abundant, speed limit is 30-35mph. Parking lanes may have some showing in this as it seems to be expected for cyclists to ride in the door zone.
That matches my experience as well. As to motorist negative reaction to my presence I find in decreasing order:
-Bike Laned Road (at intersections, rarely an issue between them)
-Narrow outside lane between intersections (never an issue at them)
-Wide Outside lane (never)

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Old 03-22-08, 08:51 AM
  #428  
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Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
From what I have experienced and what has been reported it seem the majority of the problem (of harassment) exists on multi-lane (same direction) narrow lanes (9'-10') with traffic light enough that opportunities for motoring traffic to change lanes is abundant, speed limit is 30-35mph. Parking lanes may have some showing in this as it seems to be expected for cyclists to ride in the door zone.
Agreed to some degree.

My wide lane experience with light traffic is fine, but add some volume and things change. Seems many people aren't sure where in the wide lane they're supposed to ride and so kind of weave back and forth. (Seems like they're trying to protect their lane position.)

Many seniors will also ride as far to the right as possible, not the best place when cyclists are present.

Motorists appear more worried about the cars in the left lane than the bikes to the right.

Urban WOL's cause drivers to create an extra lane threreby changing a WOL into two narrow lanes.
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Old 03-22-08, 10:20 AM
  #429  
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Originally Posted by Script View Post
Agreed to some degree.

My wide lane experience with light traffic is fine, but add some volume and things change. Seems many people aren't sure where in the wide lane they're supposed to ride and so kind of weave back and forth. (Seems like they're trying to protect their lane position.)

Many seniors will also ride as far to the right as possible, not the best place when cyclists are present.

Motorists appear more worried about the cars in the left lane than the bikes to the right.

Urban WOL's cause drivers to create an extra lane threreby changing a WOL into two narrow lanes.
I have noticed this also. in the office park area I work in, if you try to leave at rush hour you will run into this exact situation. motorists are splitting the WOL into two Narrow lanes, one to turn one way onto the arterial, the other to turn the other way.
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Old 03-22-08, 12:40 PM
  #430  
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Originally Posted by rando View Post
I have noticed this also. in the office park area I work in, if you try to leave at rush hour you will run into this exact situation. motorists are splitting the WOL into two Narrow lanes, one to turn one way onto the arterial, the other to turn the other way.
Have you given some thought to what the alternatives would be to turning like this? What would you prefer them to do? What do you think is the legal way to turn from a WOL? [Depending on your answer, it may be the same for all three here but I just wanted to make sure.]
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Old 03-22-08, 01:49 PM
  #431  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
That matches my experience as well. As to motorist negative reaction to my presence I find in decreasing order:
-Bike Laned Road (at intersections, rarely an issue between them)
-Narrow outside lane between intersections (never an issue at them)
-Wide Outside lane (never)

Al
I am curious about the bike laned road at intersections, are lights that are red or motorists turning over represented in the negative reactions or are thru motorists on green just as likely to have a negative reaction?
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Old 03-22-08, 01:58 PM
  #432  
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Originally Posted by Script View Post
Urban WOL's cause drivers to create an extra lane threreby changing a WOL into two narrow lanes.
I hate WOLs where that happens, no real way to control the lane, if you control the right most of two lanes you get sideswiped by the guy who thinks it's only one lane, if you go far right you get sideswiped by people who think it is two lanes.
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Old 03-22-08, 02:17 PM
  #433  
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If you give car drivers 6 extra feet of unmarked road, they will take 6 extra feet.
With clearly lined BL's you will ahve maybe only one out of 10 cars crowding you.
With WOL's, I would expect about 8 out of ten cars crowding especially on opposing, two lane roads.
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Old 03-22-08, 02:50 PM
  #434  
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Originally Posted by -=Łem in Pa=- View Post
If you give car drivers 6 extra feet of unmarked road, they will take 6 extra feet.
With clearly lined BL's you will ahve maybe only one out of 10 cars crowding you.
With WOL's, I would expect about 8 out of ten cars crowding especially on opposing, two lane roads.
Exactly my experience.
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Old 03-22-08, 06:19 PM
  #435  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Have you given some thought to what the alternatives would be to turning like this? What would you prefer them to do? What do you think is the legal way to turn from a WOL? [Depending on your answer, it may be the same for all three here but I just wanted to make sure.]
I have no idea. Just reporting what happens. and the lines go pretty far down the block.
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Old 03-22-08, 06:44 PM
  #436  
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Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
I hate WOLs where that happens, no real way to control the lane, if you control the right most of two lanes you get sideswiped by the guy who thinks it's only one lane, if you go far right you get sideswiped by people who think it is two lanes.
There's no need to control a WOL. Your presence controls the section that you are using; let others, motorists or cyclists, use the rest.
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Old 03-22-08, 08:04 PM
  #437  
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Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
There's no need to control a WOL. Your presence controls the section that you are using; let others, motorists or cyclists, use the rest.
Yah right, no need to control a narrow lane. Great advice, try reading in context.
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Old 03-22-08, 08:59 PM
  #438  
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Originally Posted by -=Łem in Pa=- View Post
If you give car drivers 6 extra feet of unmarked road, they will take 6 extra feet.
With clearly lined BL's you will ahve maybe only one out of 10 cars crowding you.
With WOL's, I would expect about 8 out of ten cars crowding especially on opposing, two lane roads.
On a NRL (narrow right lane) street I have zero out of ten cars crowding me.
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Old 03-22-08, 09:05 PM
  #439  
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Originally Posted by ChipSeal View Post
On a NRL (narrow right lane) street I have zero out of ten cars crowding me.
we know you're superman, but you're still missing the point

try to keep up, the discussion is about motorists who treat a WOL as two lanes
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Old 03-23-08, 01:02 PM
  #440  
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Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
There's no need to control a WOL. Your presence controls the section that you are using; let others, motorists or cyclists, use the rest.
C'mon JF, I thought the VC mantra was 'Control the Road' or 'Take the Lane'.

How have you dealt with a WOL turning from a two to a three lane road?

That little stripe for the BL helps keep the motorists where they belong...
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Old 03-23-08, 01:21 PM
  #441  
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Originally Posted by Script View Post
C'mon JF, I thought the VC mantra was 'Control the Road' or 'Take the Lane'.
Where did you get that idea? Just curious.

Originally Posted by Script View Post
How have you dealt with a WOL turning from a two to a three lane road?
Does the third lane just "grow" out of the shoulder, or come in from another road with traffic in it? In the latter case, yes, it may be useful to control the lane prior to reaching the point where the new lane comes in. But, if it remains wide, continuing to share the lane, then moving to the left of the new lane, then the right side of the new lane (assuming it is wide too - and with an appropriate look back. yielding, signaling, negotiation as required prior to each lateral move) is often the most reasonable vehicular approach.

Originally Posted by Script View Post
That little stripe for the BL helps keep the motorists where they belong...
Tell that to all of the cyclists and their surviving family members who have been hit by drivers who did not notice the cyclist up ahead (arguably because he was not in the driver's "zone of attention" - his own lane up ahead), decided to attend to a distraction (after all, his intended path up ahead is clear - good time to unwrap that burger or whatever), and inadvertently drifted into the unnoticed cyclist across the stripe while attending to that distraction.

And how does the stripe help at all in your 2 to 3 lane scenario?
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Old 03-23-08, 04:20 PM
  #442  
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Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
I hate WOLs where that happens, no real way to control the lane, if you control the right most of two lanes you get sideswiped by the guy who thinks it's only one lane, if you go far right you get sideswiped by people who think it is two lanes.
I've got a short section like that on my commute. It's as annoying to use in a car as it is on a bike, maybe moreso. It's about to be re-striped, possibly with a bikelane it appears, so it'll be interesting to see what it's like afterwards.

Anyway, my approach is to take the same line, more-or-less, that I'd take if it was striped - take the whole of the kerbside 'lane', riding a metre or so to the side of the other lane, or just enough to prevent anyone passing on the kerbside. I find that if there's room to pass, drivers very rarely buzz me, and they never try to overtake on the kerbside.

You can see it from about 4:00 on this video. There's 2 lanes approaching the pedestrian light, and only one after it. Stupid layout, I agree.

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Old 03-23-08, 07:30 PM
  #443  
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Originally Posted by Allister View Post
I've got a short section like that on my commute. It's as annoying to use in a car as it is on a bike, maybe moreso. It's about to be re-striped, possibly with a bikelane it appears, so it'll be interesting to see what it's like afterwards.

Anyway, my approach is to take the same line, more-or-less, that I'd take if it was striped - take the whole of the kerbside 'lane', riding a metre or so to the side of the other lane, or just enough to prevent anyone passing on the kerbside. I find that if there's room to pass, drivers very rarely buzz me, and they never try to overtake on the kerbside.

You can see it from about 4:00 on this video. There's 2 lanes approaching the pedestrian light, and only one after it. Stupid layout, I agree.
My issue is some motorists treat as two lanes and some treat it as one lane (generally the big cars or trucks and they seem reluctant to open up a "lane" one the side) in that inconsistency and the mad rush of motorists to be the first in the cue when the road goes narrow... its just crazy.
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Old 03-23-08, 08:27 PM
  #444  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
Where did you get that idea? Just curious.


Does the third lane just "grow" out of the shoulder, or come in from another road with traffic in it? In the latter case, yes, it may be useful to control the lane prior to reaching the point where the new lane comes in. But, if it remains wide, continuing to share the lane, then moving to the left of the new lane, then the right side of the new lane (assuming it is wide too - and with an appropriate look back. yielding, signaling, negotiation as required prior to each lateral move) is often the most reasonable vehicular approach.


Tell that to all of the cyclists and their surviving family members who have been hit by drivers who did not notice the cyclist up ahead (arguably because he was not in the driver's "zone of attention" - his own lane up ahead), decided to attend to a distraction (after all, his intended path up ahead is clear - good time to unwrap that burger or whatever), and inadvertently drifted into the unnoticed cyclist across the stripe while attending to that distraction.

And how does the stripe help at all in your 2 to 3 lane scenario?
I'm sure JF is appreciative that you stand in for him.

I'll type slowly so you understand...

There is no third lane. It's a created phenomenon by the drivers that see this big, wide way and decide there's room for another vehicle. Maybe this has never happened to you?

And help me understand this 'negotiation' you refer to. In my experience, I've never been able to 'negotiate' without some type of direct communication such as talking or typing or writing. I'm sure eye contact or a wave is a great negotiating tool, but I prefer something more concrete than that. I'm unwilling to risk life and limb by assuming that by looking and waving a motorist will understand my 'negotiation'.

Show me some data to support your implication that a bike lane stripe has caused even one accident.
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Old 03-24-08, 01:44 AM
  #445  
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Originally Posted by Script View Post
I'm sure JF is appreciative that you stand in for him.

I'll type slowly so you understand...

There is no third lane. It's a created phenomenon by the drivers that see this big, wide way and decide there's room for another vehicle. Maybe this has never happened to you?
Oh, you mean when a wide lane is shared by two lines of cars? Sure, I've seen that, usually at intersection approaches where the rightmost line is turning right. Is that what you mean? What's the problem? You asked JF how he dealt with that. What's to deal with? If there is a red light you just take your turn in the appropriate line. If it's slow/stopped traffic for a long way, you can lane split. Perhaps you have a particular situation in mind?

Originally Posted by Script
And help me understand this 'negotiation' you refer to. In my experience, I've never been able to 'negotiate' without some type of direct communication such as talking or typing or writing. I'm sure eye contact or a wave is a great negotiating tool, but I prefer something more concrete than that. I'm unwilling to risk life and limb by assuming that by looking and waving a motorist will understand my 'negotiation'.
Negotiation in traffic cycling normally refers to using signaling (with your arm or just a head-turn look-back) to indicate intent to move laterally or turn, waiting for someone to yield (usually by slowing down to let you in), and then moving. When they slow down in response to your signaling, that's about as concrete as it gets. There is no assuming that the motorist will understand - you don't move unless it's obvious that he has understood... which he indicates by slowing down to let you in (often accompanied by a wave and/or a nod - but that's really superfluous to the slowing down).

Originally Posted by Script
Show me some data to support your implication that a bike lane stripe has caused even one accident.
I know of no data that shows that a bike lane stripe caused a crash, just as I know of no study data that shows a bike lane stripe ever prevented a crash.

But the anecdotal data sure seems convincing to me. Lane-controlling and wide-lane-sharing cyclists rear-ended are practically unheard of (even crashes with cyclists hit by oncoming motorists who drift onto their side of the road seem more common), but incidents of unnoticed cyclists in bike lanes (or marked shoulders) being drifted into by same-direction traffic are all too common.

I agree that the stripe generally keeps motorists out of the margin - whether cyclists are present or not - the debris that collects in the bike lane is ample evidence of that. But what's relevant to cyclist safety is the degree to which the stripe helps keep motorists from hitting cyclists. I understand that it seems logical to assume that if the stripe keeps motorists out of the margin -- whether cyclists are there or not -- that it should also help keep them out of the margin when cyclists are there, but this assumption ignores the effect the cyclist's presence has in keeping the motorist's out. That is, if all of the motorists stayed out of the margin when cyclists were riding in the margin, then the relevant effect of the stripe (on cyclists safety from being hit from behind) would be nil. My experience and anecdotal evidence indicates that that is pretty close to the truth. Further, experience and anecdotal evidence also seems to indicate that the stripe makes cyclists in bike lanes more likely to be overlooked - causing motorists to behave indistinguishably whether cyclists are present or not. Being more likely to be overlooked makes cyclists less likely to inhibit a motorist approaching from behind choosing to attend to a distraction - an act which can lead to inadvertent drift into the unnoticed cyclist. I realize that is conjecture, but it's more sound than any claim that the stripe makes cyclists less likely to be hit. More importantly, conflicts with cross traffic are much more likely to cause a crash, and the bike lane clearly guides cyclists and motorists into such conflicts.
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Old 03-24-08, 06:32 AM
  #446  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
Oh, you mean when a wide lane is shared by two lines of cars? Sure, I've seen that, usually at intersection approaches where the rightmost line is turning right. Is that what you mean? What's the problem? You asked JF how he dealt with that. What's to deal with? If there is a red light you just take your turn in the appropriate line. If it's slow/stopped traffic for a long way, you can lane split. Perhaps you have a particular situation in mind?

But the anecdotal data sure seems convincing to me. Lane-controlling and wide-lane-sharing cyclists rear-ended are practically unheard of (even crashes with cyclists hit by oncoming motorists who drift onto their side of the road seem more common), but incidents of unnoticed cyclists in bike lanes (or marked shoulders) being drifted into by same-direction traffic are all too common.

I agree that the stripe generally keeps motorists out of the margin - whether cyclists are present or not - the debris that collects in the bike lane is ample evidence of that. But what's relevant to cyclist safety is the degree to which the stripe helps keep motorists from hitting cyclists. I understand that it seems logical to assume that if the stripe keeps motorists out of the margin -- whether cyclists are there or not -- that it should also help keep them out of the margin when cyclists are there, but this assumption ignores the effect the cyclist's presence has in keeping the motorist's out. That is, if all of the motorists stayed out of the margin when cyclists were riding in the margin, then the relevant effect of the stripe (on cyclists safety from being hit from behind) would be nil. My experience and anecdotal evidence indicates that that is pretty close to the truth. Further, experience and anecdotal evidence also seems to indicate that the stripe makes cyclists in bike lanes more likely to be overlooked - causing motorists to behave indistinguishably whether cyclists are present or not. Being more likely to be overlooked makes cyclists less likely to inhibit a motorist approaching from behind choosing to attend to a distraction - an act which can lead to inadvertent drift into the unnoticed cyclist. I realize that is conjecture, but it's more sound than any claim that the stripe makes cyclists less likely to be hit. More importantly, conflicts with cross traffic are much more likely to cause a crash, and the bike lane clearly guides cyclists and motorists into such conflicts.
I mean miles of wide lane that alternate between numbers of vehicles abreast, not just at intersections. You picked the easy rationale...people wanting to turn right or left and 'squeezing' by another vehicle. My experience has been that in the presence of a bike stripe, people will not generally try to squeeze by but in the absense of that stripe, they will choose to 'add' a lane.

I completely disregard anecdotal data. You are welcome to disregard my experience as well. 'Anecdotal' and 'experience' are ways to justify positions in the absence of facts. Whenever one starts referencing 'anecdotal' or 'my experience' my ***** alarm goes off.

You admit conjecture than say it is 'more sound'?

Why use facts for a position when you can use Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt?
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Old 03-24-08, 07:23 AM
  #447  
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Another advantage of bike lanes is transportation under adverse light conditions.

The principles of VC depend heavily on visibility. Or perhaps its superstition that cars will run into objects that can't be seen. So what happens during fog or other low-light conditions? Most drivers will use the lane markings as their guides. Which means that without a BL a cyclist will be in the gutter or on the shoulder on broken asphalt or gravel.

Once again, Bike Lanes facilitate the use of roads by ordinary people and not just hyper-charged cycle jocks.
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Old 03-24-08, 09:12 AM
  #448  
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Originally Posted by rando View Post
I have noticed this also. in the office park area I work in, if you try to leave at rush hour you will run into this exact situation. motorists are splitting the WOL into two Narrow lanes, one to turn one way onto the arterial, the other to turn the other way.
At what intersection are you having this issue? I've seen nothing like it locally.

Or are you talking about most residential/collector streets which have an unmarked thru and RT lane at intersections, wide enough for thru vehicle to line up on the left leaving the right side open for right turning vehicles. That is a good thing.

Al
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Old 03-24-08, 09:13 AM
  #449  
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Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
I am curious about the bike laned road at intersections, are lights that are red or motorists turning over represented in the negative reactions or are thru motorists on green just as likely to have a negative reaction?
I don't quite understand your question. The negative comes from motorists who are resistant to let me leave the bike lane and when I do give me a hard time about it.

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Old 03-24-08, 09:33 AM
  #450  
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Originally Posted by Script View Post
I'm sure JF is appreciative that you stand in for him.

I'll type slowly so you understand...

There is no third lane. It's a created phenomenon by the drivers that see this big, wide way and decide there's room for another vehicle. Maybe this has never happened to you?

And help me understand this 'negotiation' you refer to. In my experience, I've never been able to 'negotiate' without some type of direct communication such as talking or typing or writing. I'm sure eye contact or a wave is a great negotiating tool, but I prefer something more concrete than that. I'm unwilling to risk life and limb by assuming that by looking and waving a motorist will understand my 'negotiation'.

Show me some data to support your implication that a bike lane stripe has caused even one accident.
Your answer shows your ignorance of normal traffic operation. For example, when changing lanes one must yield to those in or approaching in the lane you desire to enter. However, that person may decide to yield to your request, whether that request is transmitted by a car's turning signal, by a outstretched arm, or by a turned head. The driver changing lanes must not move laterally simply because he has made such a signal, but only when that signal has been seen, acknowledged, and agreed to. If you are the driver who wants to change lanes, the proof that such a negotiation has succeeded is that the other driver slows down to make a place for you. It's that simple, much simpler than the explanation.
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