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Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.

Let's forget names....

Old 04-21-08, 08:37 PM
  #26  
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Can you give some examples of where the ROTR have "evolved successful exceptions"? I'm not sure what you are referring to
trains
pedestrians

both have evolved to be exceptions to the ROTR principle of destination positioning.
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Old 04-21-08, 10:00 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by JRA View Post
Riding according to the rules of the road is a fine way of bicycling but 'VC' is about as far from a fine name as you can get. It emphasizes the most ambiguous and least important part of the phrase "vehicular rules of the road" and ignores the most important part.

Granted, "rules of the road cycling" is a bit cumbersome (but "ROTR cycling" isn't bad).

The term "vehicular cycling" was a good try at finding a shorthand but I don't think it has worked out all that well.

I used to call myself a vehicular cyclist-- back before I became aware of the extent to which "VC" was little more than a brand of cycling know-it-all-ism and obstructionism. VC is an ill-defined brand, to be sure. Far worse than being ill-defined, though, is the bad image VC has acquired -- due partly to an association with radical anti-facilities-ism and partly to the incredible arrogance and condescention associated with at least some (but certainly not all) proponents of VC-ism.

Because of the many negative connotations that the term "VC" has come to have and, since getting people to accept a distintion between "VC" (which has come to represent a radical anti-facilites ideology) and "vc" (meaning riding according to the rules of the road) is an exercise in futility, I no longer call myself a vehicular cyclist.

I cringe if anyone calls me "VC" (them's fightin' words )

I have taken to calling myself a "rules of the road bicyclist," a phrase which far more accurately describes what I do and what I advocate.

VC-ists might do well to look for another name-- that is, if they want to disassociate themselves from the more ridiculous social, psychological and political theories of the person who founded the VC brand.

But, heck, VC-ists can adopt whatever silly brand name they want for the ideology which I and many other life-long ROTR bicyclists find at least a little offensive.
Nice post, which addresses all but one of the issues at hand as far as I can see.

I don't, though, subscribe to the notion that I need some sort of 'label' to describe me. I'm a cyclist, and that's not only a good enough label but it also identifies me as a person who enjoys privileges which motorists do not enjoy.

I'm not required to sit a test and gain a license in order to qualify me for using the public roads system for my cycling, for starters.

I'm permitted to ride on the road shoulder, where I consider that shoulder to be adequate for my riding. Motorists aren't.

I'm able to ride on shared pathways or cycling-specific pathways, where those are provided, to avoid vehicle traffic. I'm not obliged to do so, though.



The hard-line, anti-facilities stance adopted by some is a short-sighted and quite inappropriate one, which really presupposes an impossible, ideal world. Cycling facilities are necessary features, because not all cyclists are mature and responsible adults who have attained road use proficiency, and we do not have any moves in place toward requiring them to be. Kids ride bikes too, for starters. I've a 'date' with one of my young grand-daughters next week, because we've planned to go riding together. Thank goodness for the cycling/shared pathways.


Yes, I'm all in favour of the notion that, when I'm riding my bike on public roads I need be mindful of the road rules and motorists need be mindful of me. but please don't try to take away those privileges I also enjoy!





Oh! that other issue I mentioned, when I said the post addressed "all but one" of the issues I see?


It was that matter of people who interject their ideology into just about every remotely related forum topic, rendering considered discussion almost impossible. Many a fine internet forum has been ruined by people who do that, and unfortunately all too often forum supervisors, in their genuine effort to allow free discussion, don't recognise that approach as the disruptive behaviour which it is.


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Old 04-21-08, 10:24 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Stop on red.
Wasn't aways that way... gee, something evolved.

And the exception... right turn on red.

You're supposed to stop first, but that seems to be slipping by the wayside... with the result being that pedestrians are now at jeopardy and new signs are warning motorists that they must give way to pedestrians before turning.
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Old 04-22-08, 08:54 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
tell me a universal rule of the road.
Quickly a few:

When entering a roadway yield to traffic
When on a minor road crossing a major one, yield to x-traffic.
Drive on the same side of the road as everyone else in your region.
Make left turn from the left most space available, and right turns from the right most.

Al
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Old 04-22-08, 09:33 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
Quickly a few:

When entering a roadway yield to traffic
When on a minor road crossing a major one, yield to x-traffic.
Drive on the same side of the road as everyone else in your region.
Make left turn from the left most space available, and right turns from the right most.

Al
Those are pretty good... simple and good... too bad so many folks fail on that last rule. Ever heard of a Jersey Swoop... that's folks that turn fail to do that last item... so common it has a name.
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Old 04-22-08, 09:46 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by JRA View Post
Riding according to the rules of the road is a fine way of bicycling but 'VC' is about as far from a fine name as you can get. It emphasizes the most ambiguous and least important part of the phrase "vehicular rules of the road" and ignores the most important part.

Granted, "rules of the road cycling" is a bit cumbersome (but "ROTR cycling" isn't bad).

The term "vehicular cycling" was a good try at finding a shorthand but I don't think it has worked out all that well.

I used to call myself a vehicular cyclist-- back before I became aware of the extent to which "VC" was little more than a brand of cycling know-it-all-ism and obstructionism. VC is an ill-defined brand, to be sure. Far worse than being ill-defined, though, is the bad image VC has acquired -- due partly to an association with radical anti-facilities-ism and partly to the incredible arrogance and condescention associated with at least some (but certainly not all) proponents of VC-ism.

Because of the many negative connotations that the term "VC" has come to have and, since getting people to accept a distintion between "VC" (which has come to represent a radical anti-facilites ideology) and "vc" (meaning riding according to the rules of the road) is an exercise in futility, I no longer call myself a vehicular cyclist.

I cringe if anyone calls me "VC" (them's fightin' words )

I have taken to calling myself a "rules of the road bicyclist," a phrase which far more accurately describes what I do and what I advocate.

VC-ists might do well to look for another name-- that is, if they want to disassociate themselves from the more ridiculous social, psychological and political theories of the person who founded the VC brand.

But, heck, VC-ists can adopt whatever silly brand name they want for the ideology which I and many other life-long ROTR bicyclists find at least a little offensive.
I tend to agree. Thanks for the good post.
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Old 04-22-08, 10:32 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
Quickly a few:

When entering a roadway yield to traffic
When on a minor road crossing a major one, yield to x-traffic.
Drive on the same side of the road as everyone else in your region.
Make left turn from the left most space available, and right turns from the right most.

Al
To be universal, wouldn't they have to apply in Mexico?
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Old 04-22-08, 10:34 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
To be universal, wouldn't they have to apply in Mexico?
They generally do in my frequent observations
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Old 04-22-08, 03:20 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Wasn't aways that way... gee, something evolved.

And the exception... right turn on red.

You're supposed to stop first, but that seems to be slipping by the wayside... with the result being that pedestrians are now at jeopardy and new signs are warning motorists that they must give way to pedestrians before turning.
Even with right turn on red, you still stop first at the red light. You can go if it's clear though. At a flashing red, again you stop first, then go when it's your turn or when it's clear. "Stop on red and don't go until it's green" seems to be what you are referring to.

The fact that some people have begun treating right on red like a yield situation does not take away the fact that the rule is stop on red. Stop signs still mean stop yet not everyone stops every time.
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Old 04-23-08, 05:24 PM
  #35  
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Some great points made earlier, esp. JRA - that is close to my feelings as the VC debate has worn on.

However, I now feel that labels are exactly what we need and after much deliberation and mental application, have devised the following, which I submit here for the approval of the forum.

Cycling Roads As Proscribed (by law)

Ed
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Old 04-23-08, 06:41 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Even with right turn on red, you still stop first at the red light. You can go if it's clear though. At a flashing red, again you stop first, then go when it's your turn or when it's clear. "Stop on red and don't go until it's green" seems to be what you are referring to.

The fact that some people have begun treating right on red like a yield situation does not take away the fact that the rule is stop on red. Stop signs still mean stop yet not everyone stops every time.
You don't drive or bike around here... While there is a rule, it is so often disobeyed... to such an extent that new signs are going up everywhere, reminding motorists that they MUST give way to pedestrians. (I don't recall the actual wording). Bottom line is the "Stop" part is pretty much discretionary.
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Old 04-23-08, 08:16 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
You don't drive or bike around here... While there is a rule, it is so often disobeyed... to such an extent that new signs are going up everywhere, reminding motorists that they MUST give way to pedestrians. (I don't recall the actual wording). Bottom line is the "Stop" part is pretty much discretionary.
No, it's not discretionary otherwise the signs wouldn't be going up. They still need to stop at the red and they still need to yield to peds in a crosswalk (whether the light is red or not).

I'm not sure how you've concluded that something is no longer a rule simply because you believe the majority don't follow it.
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Old 04-24-08, 08:19 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
No, it's not discretionary otherwise the signs wouldn't be going up. They still need to stop at the red and they still need to yield to peds in a crosswalk (whether the light is red or not).

I'm not sure how you've concluded that something is no longer a rule simply because you believe the majority don't follow it.
A rule that is not followed and is not enforced is pretty much non-existent.
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Old 04-24-08, 03:35 PM
  #39  
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^^ well, I hear stories of tickets handed out for ignoring this rule here in California, so the Police must take it seriously... Of course CHP also hangs out every Sunday in my neighborhood to make sure the cyclists stop at the stop sign - and they ticket a few who do not.

P.S. Jeremy Clarkson (well known English motoring journalist) cited the "Right on red" allowance as America's only contribution to modern civilisation...

Should I have added a smiley to my earlier post, or are you lot just ignoring me
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Old 04-24-08, 03:40 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Ed Holland View Post
^^ well, I hear stories of tickets handed out for ignoring this rule here in California, so the Police must take it seriously... Of course CHP also hangs out every Sunday in my neighborhood to make sure the cyclists stop at the stop sign - and they ticket a few who do not.

P.S. Jeremy Clarkson (well known English motoring journalist) cited the "Right on red" allowance as America's only contribution to modern civilisation...

Should I have added a smiley to my earlier post, or are you lot just ignoring me
I wonder if Jeremy ever walks...
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Old 04-24-08, 03:42 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
A rule that is not followed and is not enforced is pretty much non-existent.
Perfect timing for Ed to chime in. In response to your post though, that's your opinion based on your experience that the rule is not followed or enforced. That does not make it a fact.
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Old 04-24-08, 03:54 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
I wonder if Jeremy ever walks...
Not much, judging by what I saw of him once in the pub in Oxford. Let's just say TV can be quite flattering...
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Old 04-24-08, 03:55 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Perfect timing for Ed to chime in. In response to your post though, that's your opinion based on your experience that the rule is not followed or enforced. That does not make it a fact.
No, the posted new signs make it a fact.

These new signs popping up everywhere are clear indicator that there are problems...

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Old 04-24-08, 05:54 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Ed Holland View Post
Some great points made earlier, esp. JRA - that is close to my feelings as the VC debate has worn on.

However, I now feel that labels are exactly what we need and after much deliberation and mental application, have devised the following, which I submit here for the approval of the forum.

Cycling Roads As Proscribed (by law)

Ed
I saw it, Ed!

Yes, I am a CRAP cyclist!
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Old 04-25-08, 01:39 PM
  #45  
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Thank you rando. Its nice to be appreciated, even in disdain . I'm a CRAP cyclist too!
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Old 04-25-08, 01:43 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by rando View Post
Yes, I am a CRAP cyclist!
http://www.azcrap.org/
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Old 04-25-08, 01:55 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by JRA View Post
I can remember dire predictions that the right turn on red would be the end of civilized society.
You mean it wasn't ?

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Old 04-25-08, 02:58 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by JRA View Post
I used to call myself a vehicular cyclist-- back before I became aware of the extent to which "VC" was little more than a brand of cycling know-it-all-ism and obstructionism. VC is an ill-defined brand, to be sure. Far worse than being ill-defined, though, is the bad image VC has acquired -- due partly to an association with radical anti-facilities-ism and partly to the incredible arrogance and condescention associated with at least some (but certainly not all) proponents of VC-ism.

Because of the many negative connotations that the term "VC" has come to have and, since getting people to accept a distintion between "VC" (which has come to represent a radical anti-facilites ideology) and "vc" (meaning riding according to the rules of the road) is an exercise in futility, I no longer call myself a vehicular cyclist.
IMO, the real problem is highlighted in red: that people mix the VC riding strategy -- which, judging from posts, a high proportion of the A&S regulars use -- with VC advocacy. They really are two different animals.

Anyway, it is (1) rare that I run into anyone outside of A&S that knows what VC means and (2) "a strike of lightning" that I run into someone with an anti-VC bent.
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Old 04-29-08, 11:08 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Ed Holland View Post
This has frightened most of the rest of bikeforums away - even the commuters.
I signed up for BF a couple months ago and I'm an example of what you've stated above. I have been commuting on and off for as long as I can remember, to school, to work, to everywhere. I knew that I had the same "rights" to the road as cars and that I had to obey the same laws. I also knew that being on a bike meant that I had to ride predictably and that I had a greater chance of injury compared to driving. All of this shaped my riding decisions and habits (like walking around left turns at heavy-traffic lighted intersections, etc..) I didn't know, at age 15, that there were philosophies on how to ride with traffic. I hadn't even heard the term "vehicular cyclist" until I moved to Dallas in '07.

Now I join the BFs and I see this battle going on with people already entrenched on different sides and it deters me from posting anything. What would I have to say to add to this? Why pick sides if it just antagonizes an already heated debate? So I stopped coming back. I even slowed down on my routine of riding. It had an effect on me. Now, I don't care. I'll ride how I like because I think it's pretty safe and obvious. But, I can see how it could affect people to a greater extent. We are generally very liberal thinkers (not to exclude the politically-conservative riders) and being on this side of the fence involves a lot of innovation of ideas. It's where the term progressive comes from, I think. We are always trying to better things with new ideas and new ways of living. It causes a lot of animosity as ideas often collide. It divides us. This happens all over where liberal minded people live and work. If we'd just come together on the issues that we could all agree on more, and spend less time nit-picking about the smaller details, we'd get more done. Now, I'm not for doing without thinking, but look around. We still have people in this country that don't know we belong on the road. We have people who ride without helmets. We have people that shout at us, regardless of our lane position. These things need fixing. And I don't think nit-picking about the small nuances of lane positions and what have you are doing squat to fix them.
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Old 04-30-08, 06:28 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by YULitle View Post
Why pick sides if it just antagonizes an already heated debate? So I stopped coming back... We are generally very liberal thinkers... We are always trying to better things with new ideas and new ways of living. It causes a lot of animosity as ideas often collide. It divides us. This happens all over where liberal minded people live and work. If we'd just come together on the issues that we could all agree on more,...We have people who ride without helmets...These things need fixing.
Yes, why antagonize all of "us" who don't agree with your simple minded analysis of what "we" think or what "we" need to fix.
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