CarinusMalmari

The greatest trick John Forester ever pulled, was convincing his cult the Dutch don't exist. Instead he confabulates about a country that doesn't even remotely resemble the Netherlands. Some of his ramblings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiOy13TV22I#t=2068
It's rather amusing really.


When in traffic, Dutch people will generally ride towards the right side of the road, because it's the considerate thing to do, so they rarely find themselves in front of traffic In turn, drivers will give them more than enough space, and don't door them. Close passes are rare. Happens to me maybe a handful of times per year (=5000+ kilometer) There is however a crude concept of taking the lane when circumstances require it. One notable example is when mothers take the lane to shield their children while teaching them how to ride:

VTBike

First, the FHWA report (at least to the extent you quoted) does not report speeds on bike paths. It merely reports what speed people would like to obtain - with no indication as to whether or not they actually obtain those speeds.
Second, you own statistics regarding Mountain View demonstrate that only a small minority of cyclists maintain a 20 mph speed. As someone with children, do you expect my children to be able to bike at that speed?

VTBike

Ladies and gentleman, an ardent VC promoter concedes that even he can't figure out a way to ride in harmony with vehicular traffic. As someone who has been to cities with a extensive bike path networks, I can assure you that many people on bikes in those cities would have ridden in a car were it not for the bike paths (myself included). If Spare Wheel really wanted to get people out of cars, he would encourage bike paths as one method to achieve that goal. Such blatant hypocrisy!

Quite simply, which country has more people using alternative transportation: The Netherlands with their horrific-to-bikers infrastructure or the United States where bikers don't have to worry about having those pesky bike paths? Hmm...

Finally, I can't understand anyone who demands an infrastructure that must allow them to never have to compromise their speed during congested periods. That seems to be an absurd expectation, IMHO.

spare_wheel

i am a supporter of car-free areas, traffic-calmed bike streets, door zone-free bike lanes, danish-style in road cycle tracks, and fully separated paths where appropriate.


in contrast, to crappy north-american bike sidewalks facilities in europe are often designed to encourage fast and efficient cycling. they understand that it's not only about perceived safety -- it's also about making cycling more convenient than motorized couch riding.

VTBike

My apologies. I had not understood that you were a supporter of separated paths. Many VC advocates are not and I mistakenly lumped you into that group.

jgadamski

It's a shame we engage in this 'how many angels can fit on the head of a pin' discussions pitting VC against cycling infrastructure. We live in a world that requires a strong knowledge of VC to survive as we work towards a world that creates the infrastructure that encourages those who are fearful of operating among high speed traffic to ultimately join the fold. Once that segment feels comfortable cycling at a higher level, we can start to enjoy those benefits of cycling, both as individuals and as communities.
Reading Effective Cycling provided a primer of skills and knowledge that I did not have, and I learned enough to keep me alive for the past 20 years of street riding that I have not had a collision with a motor vehicle. The more I applied VC concepts, my conflicts with autos and drivers diminished. For that I would thank John F.
However..... I cannot accept the status quo, facility wise. I want to see more cyclists using bikes to accomplish their daily activities. Jobs, school, shopping, family. The benefits are well understood. We have never fought a war over fitness like the wars we fight over oil. The dollars supporting the quest for energy rob communities of their wealth. The collateral costs of using cars over human power are well discussed.
I do not want to argue with John F. He seems so zealous and entrenched in his views, it would be a fools errand. He is welcome to believe what he does. I do want to see the US embrace at least partially the desire to move away from car-centrism to a more sane and productive means of transportation.

AngeloDolce

I don't presume to tell the Dutch what to do in the Netherlands; the relevant point for Americans is to realize that painting door zone bike lanes or even copying Dutch facilities here doesn't make motorists here believe that bicyclists can have the right of way and that motorists ever need to yield to them.

When I tried the bike lanes in Philadelphia, turning drivers did not yield - they turn in front of bicyclists and tell them to get out of the way. In the US, door zone lanes make bicyclists harder to see than using the lane in 10mph (16kph) traffic, and American drivers do door bicyclists. Before these badly designed bike lanes were installed, drivers were not as angry at bicyclists avoiding door zones and turning cars by using the regular lane.

If bicycling is safer in the Netherlands (which I am sure is true), it is because bicyclists are treated as people and motorists are punished for hitting them. US bike facilities are designed and installed by motorists, so I don't think copying Dutch facilities in the US will work without also enforcing similar laws (a topic I rarely hear addressed).

You might want to check out this post about laws in 5 states + Washington DC Court decisions - very different from Japan (my past experience) or what I read of the Netherlands. The DC court has created strict liability for bicyclists.

https://medium.com/@ShaneFarthing/th...n-561c4c2ea191
Badly designed lanes can't fix this.

Krieke

Over here cycle paths and lanes usually take away space from cars. There is a section on my commute where absent a cycle lane there would be two car lanes. Now there is a car lane and a bike lane, with the car traffic during the rush hour usually stop and go, with bikes zooming past.
You would like that. In my town the fastest way to get around is on a bike, and I hit the highest sustained speeds on those sections where there is a dedicated bike path.

spare_wheel

i'm an enthusiastic supporter of taking space away from motorvehicles (and VCers) to build bike facilities. sadly my city (portland) is falling behind on this in the usa as we squabble over money and prioritize pothole repair.