The facts about cycling in Holland
#451
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I repeat the argument that I have been making for a long time. The Dutch cycled a lot because their situation was such that walking and cycling were very useful and suited their low income relative to other European nations. Sure, the arrival of mass motoring reduced the amount of cycling, but, in the older areas the characteristics that suited cycling still existed. That enabled the Dutch to return to much of their historical cycling pattern.
Consider the American contrast. America never had a cycling society during the automotive era; membership in the League of American Wheelmen collapsed in 1898. The urban development since then, shall we say during all of the era of American economic power, was based on either the existing rail transit or the newer automotive pattern.
Consider the American contrast. America never had a cycling society during the automotive era; membership in the League of American Wheelmen collapsed in 1898. The urban development since then, shall we say during all of the era of American economic power, was based on either the existing rail transit or the newer automotive pattern.
How about the Brits? You know, they used to bike quite a lot. The development of Holland would probably have been totally parallel to GB, had the Dutch not chosen otherwise in the 70's. As would the development of Copenhagen etc. The disaster was very close, really...
#452
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What's the contrast suposed to tell us? That Americans are somehow genetically different? That Americans can't bike?
How about the Brits? You know, they used to bike quite a lot. The development of Holland would probably have been totally parallel to GB, had the Dutch not chosen otherwise in the 70's. As would the development of Copenhagen etc. The disaster was very close, really...
How about the Brits? You know, they used to bike quite a lot. The development of Holland would probably have been totally parallel to GB, had the Dutch not chosen otherwise in the 70's. As would the development of Copenhagen etc. The disaster was very close, really...
As for Americans, you need to realize that their then existing rail mass transit and their growing automotive transportation met their travel needs quite well. Their bike boom up to 1898 was fashionable, not utilitarian, which is why it collapsed in 1898. They didn't need to cycle, so they didn't.
As for the British, I am a fourth-generation British cyclist, and Britain has its own unique cycling history. The British fashionable cycling boom collapsed during World War I. However, British cycling revived because at the end of that war British workers first had a two-day weekend, thus giving skilled workers the time and money to cycle on very good bicycles, custom-made bicycles. That enabled George Herbert Stancer to revive the Cyclists' Touring Club, so that Britain had a lively cycling society through the 1920s and 1930s and until the end of the recovery from World War II. (Not that there ever was a complete recovery from the two disasters of the two world wars.) The first survey, of road traffic, in 1951, showed that 25% of the vehicle miles on British roads were by bicycle. However, because of her earlier industrial supremacy, Britain had the world's most extensive system of mass rail transit and, until government action in 1947, it was able to produce many automotive-based suburban areas. As a result, the British had less need to cycle than did people of some other nations, so cycling declined.
#453
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
...........automotive-based suburban areas. As a result, the British had less need to cycle...........
CURIOUS logic!
John must think he's flooring the crowd with his assertions building sprawling, auto-addled cities makes cycling less feasible and attractive.
Yawn. It isn't news, and doesn't merit laudations by a erstwhile cycling educator. Something furtive drives that apologist prattle.
Curious how the bleating echoes a fondness of motordom and sprawl, rather than the brilliance of the bicycle.
Last edited by Bekologist; 04-06-13 at 03:57 AM.
#454
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
CURIOUS logic!
John must think he's flooring the crowd with his assertions building sprawling, auto-addled cities makes cycling less feasible and attractive.
Yawn. It isn't news, and doesn't merit laudations by a erstwhile cycling educator. Something furtive drives that apologist prattle.
Curious how the bleating echoes a fondness of motordom and sprawl, rather than the brilliance of the bicycle.
#455
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I argue that the high bicycle mode share in the old core part of Amsterdam is because the pattern of that area makes for useful walking and cycling trips. The old core part developed as a walking city, so that all of its society's operations were located, to each other, within the range of walking and cycling trips. Those characteristics existed right up to the advent of mass motoring in the urban core. They had to, or the city could not have existed. The time between the arrival of mass motoring in the urban core and its dismissal was too short for the city's pattern to have changed. Therefore, after that dismissal, those characteristics remained, so that cycling was still as useful as before. It is not only density, although that is part of it; it is the pattern of activities so located that they can be participated in by trips suitable for walking or cycling that is the most important part.
That's my argument. I don't see why Hagen is so disposed to try to disprove it, but attempting to do so by advancing the density statistics for wide suburban areas is irrelevant. As Wendell Cox states in New Geography, when discussing Amsterdam, for the Netherlands in total 85% of personal travel is by car.
#456
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
oh bollocks. mode share started growing well before most of that fancy new infrastructure was built. moreover, the idea that holland's bike infrastructure has anything to do with its high mode does not explain mode share in the 50s, 40s, 30s, 20s, etc.
#457
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The only person you're cheating is yourself.
#458
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That link does not distinguish between core cities, or old core cities, and much larger areas of suburbs. Certainly, in those widespread areas travel patterns are much more like those in America. Wendell Cox, in New Geography, discussing Amsterdam, states that in the Netherlands as a whole, 85% of personal travel is by car.
I argue that the high bicycle mode share in the old core part of Amsterdam is because the pattern of that area makes for useful walking and cycling trips. The old core part developed as a walking city, so that all of its society's operations were located, to each other, within the range of walking and cycling trips. Those characteristics existed right up to the advent of mass motoring in the urban core. They had to, or the city could not have existed. The time between the arrival of mass motoring in the urban core and its dismissal was too short for the city's pattern to have changed. Therefore, after that dismissal, those characteristics remained, so that cycling was still as useful as before. It is not only density, although that is part of it; it is the pattern of activities so located that they can be participated in by trips suitable for walking or cycling that is the most important part.
That's my argument. I don't see why Hagen is so disposed to try to disprove it, but attempting to do so by advancing the density statistics for wide suburban areas is irrelevant. As Wendell Cox states in New Geography, when discussing Amsterdam, for the Netherlands in total 85% of personal travel is by car.
I argue that the high bicycle mode share in the old core part of Amsterdam is because the pattern of that area makes for useful walking and cycling trips. The old core part developed as a walking city, so that all of its society's operations were located, to each other, within the range of walking and cycling trips. Those characteristics existed right up to the advent of mass motoring in the urban core. They had to, or the city could not have existed. The time between the arrival of mass motoring in the urban core and its dismissal was too short for the city's pattern to have changed. Therefore, after that dismissal, those characteristics remained, so that cycling was still as useful as before. It is not only density, although that is part of it; it is the pattern of activities so located that they can be participated in by trips suitable for walking or cycling that is the most important part.
That's my argument. I don't see why Hagen is so disposed to try to disprove it, but attempting to do so by advancing the density statistics for wide suburban areas is irrelevant. As Wendell Cox states in New Geography, when discussing Amsterdam, for the Netherlands in total 85% of personal travel is by car.
#459
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Cycling is not only a thing of the medieval "walking city" city cores in neither Amsterdam nor Copenhagen. Bike trips are in average much, much longer than in the USA etc. Because it's safe, easy, convenient etc. And it's safe, easy, convenient etc. because of the bike infrastructure.
#460
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
I'm still waiting to hear how the medieval "walking city" of London failed to go the way of other medieval "walking cities" like Copenhagen and Amsterdam. I am especially curious about London as John has told us that people used to bike there in his youth...
Even Paris was a medieval "walking city," and while the French do embrace cycling, they don't do it at the same high rate as the folks in Copenhagen.
Makes me wonder if there was perhaps "something else" besides being a medieval "walking city" that made the difference.
Even Paris was a medieval "walking city," and while the French do embrace cycling, they don't do it at the same high rate as the folks in Copenhagen.
Makes me wonder if there was perhaps "something else" besides being a medieval "walking city" that made the difference.
#461
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times
in
916 Posts
Do you really believe that drivers are thinking it's OK to run over children (likely killing them) because it would be "less likely to damage their cars"? Even being "small", I'd hazard to guess that it still would be mightily inconvenient to run them over.
#463
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times
in
916 Posts
Not that long ago, many typical Europeans could manage without a car. If you don't have a car, it isn't remarkable to consider using a bicycle.
If you have a car and it's convenient to use (what's been the situation in the US for 70+ years), it's not likely that many people are going to consider using a bicycle.
That is, the US is/was different than Europe.
What would be interesting is to see the automobile usage compared to bicycle use in the Netherlands and Denmark over the past 100 years.
So, bicycling was prevalent before "diving dramatically". It was never prevalent in the US.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-07-13 at 12:31 PM.
#464
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'm still waiting to hear how the medieval "walking city" of London failed to go the way of other medieval "walking cities" like Copenhagen and Amsterdam. I am especially curious about London as John has told us that people used to bike there in his youth...
Even Paris was a medieval "walking city," and while the French do embrace cycling, they don't do it at the same high rate as the folks in Copenhagen.
Makes me wonder if there was perhaps "something else" besides being a medieval "walking city" that made the difference.
Even Paris was a medieval "walking city," and while the French do embrace cycling, they don't do it at the same high rate as the folks in Copenhagen.
Makes me wonder if there was perhaps "something else" besides being a medieval "walking city" that made the difference.
Paris was probably the second city to make that transition.
#465
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times
in
916 Posts
As I have already written, London has the greatest extent of rail mass transit of any city or urban area in the world. London was the first city to make the transition from walking city to rail mass transit city. Of course, as in any other city, Londoners continued to walk, and the combination of walking and rail mass transit provided the personal transportation required for The City area to function.
Paris was probably the second city to make that transition.
Paris was probably the second city to make that transition.
#466
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Cycling (as far as I know) was ever a large proportion of the means of getting around in the US. In the US, cars were (are) much less expensive than they are in Europe. That, the related push to build-out suburbs (which increased after WWII, and the "urban flight" of the middle class (among other things), assured that automobiles (and commuter mass transit) would become the dominant form of transport in the US.
Not that long ago, many typical Europeans could manage without a car. If you don't have a car, it isn't remarkable to consider using a bicycle.
If you have a car and it's convenient to use (what's been the situation in the US for 70+ years), it's not likely that many people are going to consider using a bicycle.
That is, the US is/was different than Europe.
What would be interesting is to see the automobile usage compared to bicycle use in the Netherlands and Denmark over the past 100 years.
So, bicycling was prevalent before "diving dramatically". It was never prevalent in the US.
Not that long ago, many typical Europeans could manage without a car. If you don't have a car, it isn't remarkable to consider using a bicycle.
If you have a car and it's convenient to use (what's been the situation in the US for 70+ years), it's not likely that many people are going to consider using a bicycle.
That is, the US is/was different than Europe.
What would be interesting is to see the automobile usage compared to bicycle use in the Netherlands and Denmark over the past 100 years.
So, bicycling was prevalent before "diving dramatically". It was never prevalent in the US.
#467
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times
in
916 Posts
People moved around London before cycling.
In the case of NYC, many people commute in/out using mass transit. A fair number drive (mind boggles). The distances and traffic make bicycling generally inconvenient.
People using bikes in the city are ever concerned that they will be stolen or damaged. And there's a good subway and an OK bus system in place (at the mercy of heavy surface traffic). And there are a fair number of hills.
It would not surprise me if some of these things pertained to London. If there's no option, people will (maybe) cycle. The Netherlands and Denmark are unusual. Amsterdam, for inexplicable reasons, doesn't have a subway.
People really like cars. We are seeing it in China and India (at a time where the problems of automobiles is well-known).
How do you propose getting people to take up cycling to replace something they really like?
=============================
https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...ample-but.html
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-07-13 at 01:21 PM.
#468
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Who is driving these cars? Is it city dwellers? If it's people in the suburbs commuting, the alternative isn't going to be bicycling.
How do you propose getting people to take up cycling to replace something they really like?
=============================
https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...ample-but.html
=============================
https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...ample-but.html
#469
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Oh, and bikeways make cycling pleasurable. Someone choosing between using the car for a three-mile ride or using the bike, might well choose the gas-saving bike if biking is safe and easy. As it is on Dutch-style bike paths.
Today, I took a shortish ride (some 35 miles), most of it on bike paths on the roads north of Copenhagen. On the short stretches of minor country roads without bike infrastructure, I was buzzed three times. THAT's unpleasant. And unsafe.
#470
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
As for the claim that motoring pushed aside London's mass rail transit, it didn't. London's mass rail transit is still being expanded and its trains are running full. I have used them recently. Motoring simply added to London's transportation mix, and, so far as the center area is concerned, the motorists largely come from the far suburbs.
#471
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times
in
1,031 Posts
Seems pretty explicable to me, perhaps the water table has something to do with it, doncha think?
I know I took a subway while in Amsterdam. I looked it up. It does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pyFtDEI0SA
I know I took a subway while in Amsterdam. I looked it up. It does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pyFtDEI0SA
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 04-07-13 at 03:14 PM.
#473
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times
in
1,031 Posts
#474
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#475
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times
in
916 Posts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway
NYC: Population: 7 million. Subway 1.65 billion rides (in 2012). A factor of 235 (rides per capita).
Amsterdam. Population 820,000. Subway: 290,000 passengers (in 2009) A factor of 0.35 (rides per capita). (It's not clear how much of it is actually underground.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Metro
The subway in NYC is used a factor of 672 times per capita than in Amsterdam. People likely use the subway in NYC, London, Paris in a very different manner than they do in Amsterdam, "doncha think"? (Never mind.)
One might gather that the reasons the Amsterdam system isn't bigger is due, in part, to the canals.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-07-13 at 05:50 PM.