corrado33

3 times. 3 times this year I've wiped out on ice using 45Nrth studded Xerxes tires. (Funnily enough, all within 25 meters of each other.) They're advertised for use on "occasional" ice. Dear 45Nrth, If the tires aren't good on ACTUAL ice, what makes you think they'll be good on OCCASIONAL ice? That's exactly what happened to me today. Cruising along on wet pavement (not icy). Went to make a turn, tried to slow down first, hit a patch of ice and I went down. I think that's, by definition, "occasional ice." Or rather, "ice patches" as they say on their website. "Extreme traction" my ass. (Also quoted from their website.) Here's the deal. The studs are too far out. I guess their rational was that "the studs will catch when you start to lean." Well who in their right mind is going to lean enough on ice to make these catch? You don't LEAN on ice, you slow down and CAREFULLY turn. If the middle of your tire is slipping and you go to fall, there's no way in hell these studs will catch you.

Maybe I'm too light. Maybe lowering the pressure isn't enough for me. All I know is that lowering the pressure makes these tires have the rolling resistance of small thin steel wheel on a loose pea gravel road.

For the last two years I've commuted on Nokian mount and ground/W240 on my mountain bike. Want to know how many times I've wiped out due to ice in those years? None. Absolutely zero. It's not me (unless I am, in fact too light.)

My advice. Don't take these tires anywhere NEAR ice. On dry pavement they roll well!

Tomorrow I will be buying some Scwalabe marathon winter tires and selling these poor excuses for studded tires.

I'm also vowing to never review products until I've used them for at least 2 months. (I had initially given these tires a big thumbs up.)

V73

The way the Xerxes and many other studded tires are designed is specifically so that the studs don't usually touch the ground, such that when conditions are not particularly icy you don't have to switch your tires or wheels out for normal tires. The proper way to use them when you expect to encounter ice is to run them at a lower pressure such that more of the tread contacts the ground, and the studs can grip the ice. If you run them at normal pressures you'd use for other tires, you will get poor performance out of them. I do not personally own a pair of 45nrth tires (I run Schwalbe Snow Stud HS 264 tires front & back, they have the same 'studs in the outside' design) but from what I've read they are extremely good winter tires and work much better than other models. Here is a good review.

corrado33

Sorry, but you (and the reviewer) are just wrong. The reviewer quotes the same babble that 45nrth does. "The studs engage when you lean into a turn, adding significant grip." This, in itself, is idiotic. If you're on ice and are going to rely on the studs when you LEAN in, you're just going to wash out before the studs ever have a chance to engage. It's a bad design. (Your tires are different, being mountain bike tires the studs are MUCH closer to the ground than mine.)

I WAS running these at lower pressures. I initially had e-mailed 45Nrth asking what pressure I should run these at to get maximum grip. They came back (quickly) and said 35-40 PSI. Ok, great. I was running them at 40-45 (I fill them up at 45, but it's been about a week since I did.) I figured, if I get maximum grip at 35-40 PSI, I'll get "keep you off your ass" grip at 40-45. The thing is, these tires are crap when you run them that low. Sure, you get marginally more grip, but you have terrible rolling resistance. They are impractical. There is nobody in their right mind who would run these tires that low unless they KNEW it was ridiculously icy out (sheet ice) and didn't have far to go (it's extremely tiring to run them that low.)

The reviewer said in the review that he had "at least 100 miles on these tires." Well guess what, I commute a 100 miles every week, and I've had these tires for 2.5 months. I think I'm a bit more qualified and have most likely seen more conditions than them. Their review sounds very much like my initial review of these tires.

Thank goodness I didn't pay full price for these.

This isn't a knock on 45Nrth. They make great (other) products. Just not these.

Apologies if this came out sounding like an attack on you. It's not.

Plimogz

Well, first off, let me say that Marathon Winters are indeed pretty good. I used to ride 35mm but this year I bought some 50mm and I am really enjoying them. That said, if you are light, the 35mm should serve you just fine.

Now, not to defend the Xerxes, which I have never tried, but I should say that in my experience studs simply cannot keep you up if you take a turn too sharply on an unsuitable surface (though Ice Spiker Pros are very hard to overwhelm, ) Also, studs do precious little in turns through thick, semi-packed 'brown sugar' left behind by cars -- such conditions call for more aggressive shoulder knobs. I have also ridden Hakkapeliitta W240s a fair bit in the mean time, and found them to be good compromise between the super aggressive Ice Spikers and the faster rolling Marathon Winters.

So, buy the Marathons if you like; I have indeed had a good experience with them over the last 7 years. But expect that they too are somewhat slippery in turns under certain circumstances.

Edit: and of these tires, the only ones I would take out onto a skating rink (or rather, take them there again -- hey, I like to try these things out) are the Ice Spikers. With the Marathons and the Hakkapeliitas I can go an entire winter without actually wiping out -- but if I take too sharp a turn with too much speed I sometimes have to put a foot down in the turn to avoid falling. But I use the glare ice of the local rinks as the ultimate test of these tires, and... *No* -- if you shift your center of gravity significantly to a side with Marathon Winters or W240s, on a uniform patch of ice, those studs are not going to keep you up.

corrado33

Thank you for the advice. I think the problem I had is that I was about to make a turn, was braking. My front tire hit a patch of ice, locked up due to suddenly no traction (since I was barely leaning starting the turn) then I simply went down. That's another problem with the Xerxes. If it's extremely icy out I'll almost exclusively use my rear brake. If it's not really icy I'll use both, favoring the rear. With the Xerxes if you're using any front brake, hit a but of ice, you'll lock up. Locking up the front wheel unexpectedly is a recipe for a fall, every time. With other studded tires with studs on the ground at all time, they wouldn't lock up (as easily) on ice, preventing the above.

Plimogz

Yeah, that makes sense.

A couple of years ago (I guess the winters of '12 and '13) I ran my Karate Monkey fixed gear with a big, honking 203mm BB7 disc in the front: fixed gives you a particularly good feel through the rear as to the traction the surface you are riding will bear. I would always counter-pedal pretty far in advance of turns on sketchy surfaces and absolutely only use my front brake when decelerating in straight lines -- well maybe I feathered it here and there in long, shallow turns. And, hell, maybe I locked it to slide into snow banks, but that isn't germane to many users...

I am sometimes pleased -- I certainly was today with a couple inches of fresh snow falling over the icy remnants of last week's thaw and frozen rain -- with the way my brain appears to have wired itself to instinctively keep me upright in the snowy mess -- but a lot of it is down to cowardice and technique -- and being relaxed about taking some turns slow... so sloooooooow.

Anyway. The best I can say is get the Marathon Winters. I think that they are fine winter tires if *relatively* low rolling resistance is important to you. But do not expect them to keep you upright whatever you do; because that is a recipe to find yourself -- and I've been there too -- laying the on your side, regretting that you took the last turn quite as fast as you did.

Leebo

OP, you have a minimal studded tire with only 140 studs, vs most have 250 or so. And you're running too high a psi. Rim width and rider weight? Yes, studded tires have crap rolling resistance. Like pedaling through wet tar. And yes people run low pressures to KEEP the studs in contact with the ice and ground. You liked the Nokians, they worked well. You're not using them because? The marathon winters are again a somewhat minimal studded tire with a low tread profile. Thinking Montana has real winters and might need some beefy studded tires. YRMV.

corrado33

So, in order for these tires to be effective they must be run down at their low PSI rating which makes them ride like crap? Seems like it'd be easier to simply have a tire with studs in constant contact with the ground and be able to run a higher PSI. Yes, I know I was running a pressure that was very slightly too high. My point is that these tires are unforgiving and impractical. I don't have skinny rims. They're 18mm wide rims, which for a modern 700c wheel, can't really be considered thin.

I'll give you one guess as to why I'm currently trying to ride a 700c studded tire bike over a 26in mountain bike with studs while I'm commuting many miles on icy pavement every day.

My point is this. These tires are not good for winter riding. Period. The "studded" nature of them is marketing wank, as the studs do nothing unless you want to ride the tires in an environment they weren't designed for (very... very low pressure.) Just as a reminder, in a previous thread I mentioned that I HAVE ridden these tires at the minimum pressure (30 PSI). I STILL was slipping and sliding. So much so that I could spin my back tire simply by pedaling at moderate effort.

There are other 2 row studded tires that I would now pick over these. The Schwalabe Winter studded tires only have 2 rows (not the Marathon Winter, the normal "Winter) and also come in 30c. I would pick those over these because they have studs in contact with the road at all times and would probably actually do something. No one is going to be leaning far enough over to engage the studs on the 45Nrth tires successfully (and without falling before they do engage.)

I literally just purchased 2 Marathon Winters. Eagerly awaiting their arrival.

Leebo

The 45 north is a minimal studded tire. Expecting miracles? Trying to fit studded tires on a road bike? Good luck with that. Seems you need a bike that can take 40 mm tires if you want a drop bar. You will be disappointed with the 30c marathon winter. They don't have a lot of studs. Seems you need a bigger tire with more studs. How about a 29er hardtail? Plenty of options with that setup. Good luck with your tire quest. And most studded tire perform better at lower pressures. And they roll very slow. My commutes is 18 mies one way, 2-6 trips per week.

2manybikes

A narrow tire with pressure over thirty psi, is pretty much the opposite of what you need for ice. Nokian Extreme 294, Schawlbe Ice spiker, or ice spiker pro, are a better type of tire for ice. I do 15 psi front and about 20 psi rear. With either tire. If you are MTB experienced and can run less pressure, even better. The Nokian studs last much longer.
Of course this is very slow, that's life, just go with it.

kingston 

The 700X35c Marathon Winter has 240 studs. Same as the 42 and the 50. I'm not sure why anyone would buy the Winters with half the studs. @corrado33, let us know how much you like your Marathon Winters.

kingston 

I ride about 100 miles/week on Marathon Winter 26X1.75s @ 70PSI all winter long. They are fine.

corrado33

Miracles? No. Expecting them to do anything USEFUL on ice... yes. You're missing the point of my post. And where did I say I was trying to shove small tires onto a low clearance road bike anywhere? Where did I say I was riding a drop bar? Where did I say I was buying the 30c winter? (They don't offer a 30c "Marathon" Winter.) (By the way, all of your assumptions are absolutely wrong. I have plenty of clearance under my fenders, hence why I bought the 35c marathon winters and I'm riding a flat bar cyclocross bike...)



Yes. This is pretty much the point I'm trying to make. These tires are NO GOOD. Being studded tires people assume that they can be ridden on ice, be it occasional or otherwise. This is a BAD assumption. I'm trying to prevent people from making the same mistake I did. 45NRTH advertise these as tires that can be ridden on ICE. Again, marketing wank. Don't make the same mistake I did. If you depend on your bike for transportation, and you ride on any sort of ice whatsoever, do not get these tires. They are not good at anything. If you ride on ice, buy better studded tires and deal with higher rolling resistance. If you don't ever encounter ice, you don't need studded tires.

PaulRivers

Same thing, except with 700x35c. Recommended inflation pressure for mine is 35-85psi:
Marathon Winter - Schwalbe Professional Bike Tires

I've ridden across ice skating rinks with them. I'm not quite saying I want to corner hard on an ice skating rink, but I didn't have a problem including turning.

I've owned a pair of Nokian Extreme 294's. I did not like them. The Marathon Winters were good enough for ice, and for riding on plowed roads/paths the Nokian Extreme's slide around on fresh snow whereas the Marathon Winters cut through it and gripped the pavement. (A certain amount of snow left on the road befuddled them both). The Marathon's were also much faster, much quieter, and much less work to ride.

As I've written before I don't see much of a use for a 2" studded tire - having tried riding with them. A 30-40c tire cuts through snow better. A fat bike tire rides on top of the snow better. A 2" tire is an awkward size for me that doesn't do either well. Perhaps if I was not riding plowed roads/paths my opinion would different, I don't know, but the winter mountain bikers here tell me that a fat bike is mostly required for winter riding the of the mountain bike trails to - a 2" tire is to skinny and gets stuck a lot more.

kingston 

I'm building a new winter bike with 700c wheels. Would you recommend the Marathon Winter 35s or 40s? The 35s will fit easily. The 40s may be a little tight with 50mm fenders.

Leebo

The 45 North Gravdals look good. 38 mm I think, 250 studs. Suomi( Nokian) make the w/240 in both 35 and 40 mm. I have used the nokians on 2 bikes with good results. The hakkapelittas 35x700 on one, mount and grounds 26 x 1.95 on another.

PaulRivers

I've only used the 35's myself, so it's hard to say. In theory, the 35's are a little lighter, faster, and cut through the snow a little better. But the 40's might be better at handling ruts and stuff like that on the road. I'd say it depends a lot on where you ride and how well it's plowed. The only time my 35's were insufficient (where anything short of a fatbike tire would have worked) was the first year I got my bike and a stretch of the bike trail I used got a fair amount of riding but no plowing. I made it through that stretch but it was slow and uncomfortable and a wider tire certainly would have been better.

Most of my riding is on plowed bikes trails, which we have a lot of here in Minnesota. I'm also more of a fair weather rider - when the weather gets nasty I take the car. The other people who ride more mainly on roads seem to prefer a tire size closer to 40c, I assume to better handle bumpy ice left on the road.

So I'd say you'd have to make a call, knowing your road conditions better than I do.

The 45nrth Gradvals (38c) look interesting to. But I have not used them personally, and after a recent thread where someone though the Xerces sucked I'm not sure if I should recommend them or not. I can say from personal experience the Marathon Winters have been a great winter tire for me.

PaulRivers

I don't think so - the Nokian 35c tires were the w106's with 106 studs. I think the smallest Nokian with 4 rows of studs was the w240 in 40c. The smallest w240 I see on the Peter White site is w240:
Studded Bicycle Tires

2manybikes

And as soon as you try to go straight over 3" deep foot prints, or, a large patch of very hard very cold glare ice, or go over a hard frozen rut almost in your direction you will fall. It's not complicated. You may never see conditions like this, so no problem for you.

Leebo

The Suomi site lists lots of tires, many widths and stud counts.

kingston 

@2manybikes, Maybe we are talking about different things. Here are some examples of the kind of winter terrain I encounter in addition to riding on the road.


The first picture is a gravel trail that is plowed in one town but not the next town. You can see in the foreground that it’s iced over and rutted out. These conditions are no problem for the marathon winter tires. I have gotten cross-rutted in these conditions and gone down a few times, but I consider getting cross-rutted to be poor technique and therefore avoidable. In the background you can see the part of the trail that is not plowed. This is impassable on anything but a fat bike. When I have seen fat bikes on this part of the trail they are going so slowly that I literally think I could snowshoe faster. I don’t understand the appeal on this type of trail. I live in the north suburbs of Chicago which is nearly completely flat so we don’t really have any mountain bike trails which I could imagine would be fun on a fat bike.




This second picture shows one of the paved trails I ride regularly. The city plows this one, so the pavement is usually pretty clean. Occasionally it gets iced and rutted like the first picture, but it’s still normally passable with Marathon Winters. Water collects in this underpass and freezes like an ice rink. This is one of my favorite places to ride through with my winter tires because I can just cruise through with no problem. Many years ago, when I rode with regular knobbies in the winter, I used to dread this part of the trail. I have never gone down on an icy patch with marathon winters, and I encounter them all the time. I actually think marathon winters are the best tire available for riding on sheets of ice.




I would be interested in seeing the type of terrain that would be appropriate for studded knobbies at low PSI if you have photos to share. I’m guessing it’s hard-pack mountain bike trails where you don’t need a fat bike, and the marathon winters wouldn’t have enough traction. We don’t have anything like that where I live.
@PaulRivers, I'm leaning towards the 700x40 for this type of riding. I rarely have to ride through the type of snow that you say the narrower tire can cut through better. Like you I'm not above taking a day off if the weather is too bad or I'm just not feelin' it that day.

PaulRivers

Feel free to link to something specific if you want, but as far as I know like I said, Nokian makes the w106 in 35c with 106 studs, but if you want 4 rows of studs like on the w240 in a Nokian tire, I believe 40c is the skinniest Nokian makes.

PaulRivers

Thanks for posting those pics, those are very interesting. The 35's would be fine on the "ice rink" style of ice in the pic you posted (well as you said), but I would guess a 40c would be better for "plowed gravel trail road" style of road with more ruts and uneven surface. I'll say I have ridden 35c's just fine on our local gravel trail though...

It sounds like you are already using some marathon winters? What size are those? I'd definitely be interested in hearing a comparison if you end up using 2 different widths.

79pmooney

Have any of you run Continental TopContact ice tires, the super grippy tire without studs. (Edit: they are a skinny 37c. 35c Paselas are much fatter.) I went for my first ride New Years weekend when Portland for about an inch of very dry snow and they were a blast. The limited ice I saw was no issue at all. I did cross one very large, deep puddle that was very thin ice rink ice but I rode a VERY steady straight line in the hopes it wouldn't break (I could feel it sagging under the tires) so it was not a test of grip at all.

Ben

2_i 

Nowadays, I try to ride TopContact Winter during winters for as long as I can, because they minimize for me the need to swap tires, They are OK for short patches of ice and for mixed surface. However. they are not a solution for pure extended ice. They will give you some more time there to correct but they will not hold you forever. They work as a compromise.