Canuckophile

Hi, I have been road biking for 20-years during fair weather. I am considering buying a bicycle for winter cycling to work. It would be 25km one way and 50km total five days per week. I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Here is a youtube video someone made showing the exact trail I would be using for a part, but definitely not all, of my trip to give you an idea of the typical cycling conditions where I live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ny0j7ZDeWE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_DQH...eature=related

Would you please suggest the best bicycle, rims and tires for my needs? Please don't be overly concerned about the prices; I would rather pay more up-front than be unhappy later, with an inferior quality product.

If you require more information, please do not hesitate.

Thank you,

Canuckophile

irclean

As is true with most threads of this nature, I can only tell you what I'd buy with your money. When I decided to buy a bike with my money that would see winter duty, I knew I wanted an IGH, disc brakes, and belt drive. After much research, and a lot of feedback right here on BF, I decided to get a 2010 Norco Ceres. The 2011 version upgrades to hydraulic brakes. Many here may try to convince you that rim brakes are adequate for winter commuting, but in my experience discs are superior. Not only do they bring my Clydesdale frame to a halt more quickly than rim brakes, but the lack of road grit between my rims and brake pads means I won't need new wheels anytime soon.

I find the IGH to be invaluable for winter commuting. With my traditional drivetrain bike the derailleur would sometimes freeze solid, or the cassette would become clogged with ice. This might be a non-issue for those fortunate enough to park their rides in heated, covered shelter, but my bike is exposed to the elements whenever it's parked away from home. I find my Alfine's 8 gears more than sufficient for any of the riding that I do. If I'm going to climb steep grades while loaded down with gear, or spin out in top gear while trying to set a personal speed record, I'll be using a different bike.

The Gates Carbon Drive system is a wonder: Eerily silent and smooth as butter. It's not free of bugs and I've had some issues with it, many of which have been addressed with the introduction of Gates' new CenterTrack design. Despite the few bugs I've had to deal with, it's been far less hassle than the constant cleaning and re-lubing that comes with using a chain during my winter commute. The only CenterTrack-equipped production bike that I'm aware of that's currently available locally is the Spot Brand Acme.

As for rims, I think any double-walled aluminum rim would suffice, and a disc-braked version will last longer for the aforementioned reasons. As far as tires go, my experience is that the Schwalbe Marathon Winter provides the best balance of wet/dry grip vs. rolling resistance. I find the tires suitable for about 95% of the winter conditions that I face here in London, Ontario. For the other 5% I call in sick. The tire doesn't handle deep snow, or rutted, "mashed potato" consistency snow too well, but IMHO nothing short of an Endomorph-equipped Surly Pugsley does. For the plowed roads and icy ruts/patches I see around here the Schwalbes perform like a champ.

As a roadie you might want to take a look at the Civia Bryant. It's available with all of the features that my bike has (IGH, disc brakes, belt drive), but has it in a road bike package. It even has room for studded tires and all of the necessary eyelets/braze-ons for mounting fenders, which IMHO are an absolute must for winter commuting.

Good luck and happy hunting! You have lots of time for test rides before the snow starts flying.

tsl

Irclean is right, we can't tell you what you will like, and what will work for you. We can only say what we like and what works for us. Thus, you'll get a lot of conflicting information.

• Some people prefer internal gears. I stick with standard derailleur systems.
• Some people prefer fixies. I like the high cadence/low force technique the granny on a triple provides
• Some people prefer mountain bikes. My best use for a mountain bike would be to sell it for funds to buy a road or cyclocross bike.
• Some people think disc brakes aren't worth the extra cost. I think they're far cheaper than buying new rims after the rim brakes have ground them up.
• Some people ride platform pedals and hiking boots. I use clipless and winter cycling boots.
• Some people use regular winter coats and stuff. I prefer winter cycling kit.

Who's right? We all are--but only for ourselves and our own preferences and situation.

About the only universal advice you'll get is for fenders and studded tires. On the fenders get the widest and longest that will fit your bike and on the studded tires, get carbide studs not steel.

irclean

Well said, tsl!

tsl

Thanks.

I didn't have time this morning to watch the vids. I was able to watch about half of the first one. I get motion sickness very easily, and wanted to keep my dinner down. If I missed an important part of the videos, it's because I didn't want to puke.

That vid shows many different conditions. But once he went off the plowed sections, through that park and school, you're pretty much into MTB territory. Conventional wisdom, as I recall, is for a hardtail. Because of that snow, ice and re-freeze section, you'll probably want as many studs as possible. The Nokian Extreme 294 is a good example. So a hardtail, with disc brakes and a set of Nokians, is probably the place to start if you intend to ride in unplowed hardpack, ice and re-freeze.

Those streets and sidewalks shown in the start of that vid don't need all the heavy hardware, especially if you're only going to ride on nice, sunny days when the roads are clear and dry, as shown in the vid. In fact, on days like that, I take a fendered three-seasons bike with 25mm Gatorskins.

The bulk of my winter riding is in between those two extremes. Thus, a cyclocross or touring bike--something that will fit Nokian's Hakkapeliitta W106 in 700x35/37--works for me. Mine also has disc brakes.

Canuckophile

Hi fellows,

Thank you for the responses. I have a few more newbie questions.

For your information the video was shot on a typical winter day in Ottawa. Weather in Ottawa is quite variable, snow, ice rain, more snow, sunny, cold, warm spell, deep freeze, everyday is a new adventure in weather London, Ontario has milder winters than Ottawa and your spring starts a couple of weeks earlier than ours. However, there are certainly some similarities.

I appreciate the link you provided me to the Norco 2011 version. In my limited time (about 4 hours) doing research on the Internet, two bicycles are claiming they are made specifically for winter cycling: Fatbikes 9:ZERO:7 and Surly Pugsley. What advantages would these snow bikes have over regular MTB's and the Norco 2011 version?

With the Gates Carbon Drive system CenterTrack design would I have to oil the chain at all? What maintenance is required?

You mentioned any double-walled aluminum rim would suffice. More specifically, would you provide me with your comments about the snow cat rims, the 9:ZERO:7 rims and the Surly rims.

For tires you mention you like the Schwalbe Marathon Winter as it provides the best balance of wet/dry grip vs. rolling resistance. Would you please compare it to the Suomi-Nokia Extreme 294.

What type of saddles are you using on MTB's? Are they the same as the road bikes?

Thank you,

Canuckophile

tsl

First understand that there are differences between winter commuting and winter off-road cycling.

The Pugsley and its imitators are intended for back woods off-road winter cycling--sort of an alternative to either cross-country skis or a snowmobile. Just as those would be reasonable methods to get from the highway to your cottage in the Rideaus in January, so would be the Pugsley. Conversely, just as your wouldn't cross-country ski or use a snowmobile on your commute, a Puglsey would be equally inappropriate--at least in the city.

The reason is this: The huge 4 or 4½ inch wide tires on the Pugsley are intended to float over the top of the snow. That's exactly what you need off-road. On the road, that's the worst possible circumstance. When my tires grip the snow or slush on top rather than sink through to the pavement, many times the snow they've gripped loses its own grip on the road below. So while my tires are firmly gripped to the patch of snow, that same patch of snow is now skidding down the street--or worse, sideways out from under the bike.

I know a guy who owns a Pugsley. He thought it would be great fun. As it turns out, he likes it only when he takes it out on MTB or snowmobile trails. Hates it in the city, because that's not its intended environment. It floats where it needs to sink.

gecho

I'm not sure what length of winter commutes other people have, but I find my 15.5km one way ride a fair workout. Even when the roads are good here it usually takes me at least 50 minutes on my touring bike / 60 minutes on the mountain bike. With studded tires and winter gear you are going to be slower, 25km might be a bit much.

For that distance you'll probably want a bike / tire combo that won't slow you down too much. The Marathon Winter tires on my touring bike sometimes let me go too fast. Next winter I'm going to try to use the mountain bike more as the touring bike gets squirrelly in the uneven snow.

irclean

I think tsl hit the nail on the head regarding fat bikes. I would love to own one just for bombing around on snowy trails or sandy beaches.

As far as belt maintenance goes, proper tension is critical. The most accurate way to measure it is with a Krikit Tension Meter. Just set it, and forget it. There's no further maintenance needed!

The Extreme 294 is a big tire, and there's no way it would fit into the Norco Ceres frame. Again if I was spending your money, and I wanted to run that tire, I'd be shopping for a rigid 29er. Something like an Alfine-equipped Van Dessel WTF, Surly Karate Monkey, or Raleigh XXIX.

The best tutorial I've ever read concerning studded tires is on Peter White's website. He'll tell you that the Extreme 294 is best suited to singletrack where as the Marathon Winters are more at home on plowed city streets.

Saddles are a very personal choice, and I'm not reaching into that can of worms! That said, your fave road saddle should be fine on a MTB.

Canuckophile

Hi, some more newbie questions:

What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 26" wheel versus a 29" wheel for winter cycling?

What does "hardtail" mean?

What bike frame material is best for winter cycling? I presume steel is the worst as it rusts the easiest?

What does riding "single track" mean?

Cordially,

Canuckophile

irclean

The biggest advantage that 29" wheels have is that they can be run at lower pressures due to their larger size (the aforementioned fat bike wheels notwithstanding). That means more contact with the ground. This, however, is a double-edged sword in winter because, as mentioned above, wide tires will "float" on top of snow. Sometimes you need your tires to cut through the snow to get to the ground underneath. 26" wheels have the advantage of lower weight and replacement tires are easier to find should you find yourself touring in the land that time forgot.

"Hardtail" refers to a rigid rear triangle (i.e., no suspension).

Steel has a certain give that many riders prefer (including me). Steel frames can be protected from corrosion with the proper treatment of a rustproofing solution or boiled linseed oil.

"Singletrack" refers to a trail cut through the woods that is narrow and does not allow for riding side by side with another rider. It is approximately the width of the bike.

tsl

And for the sake of completeness, a rigid MTB is one with no suspension, front or rear. Whereas a dual-squishy has suspension at both ends.

It's generally accepted that rear suspension on the road robs you of speed due to the pogostick effect of many (but not all) rear suspension designs. Less power is available to the pedals as some goes into bouncing up and down on the suspension.

wolfchild

50 km round trip commute in winter. My choice would be a singlespeed cross bike/29'er with Drop bars and disc brakes. For such a long commute I would stay away from hybrids with flat bars or any bike that has a potential for drivetrain failrue. Keep your drivetrain simple. If you are just starting out and never biked in winter, then I reccommend you get a cheap used bike that's in good mechanical condition and try to see if you even enjoy winter riding. The most important things for winter commuting are full fenders and winter tires, everything else is just personal perference.

Canuckophile

Hi, what do you fellows think of a carbon fibre frame for winter cycling? Would it defeat the salt & rust issues?

You seem to be pushing me in the the direction of a 29er, so which carbon fibre frame is available that can handle the Shimano Alfine and Gates Carbon Drive system CenterTrack etc setup for winter cycling?

Thank you

irclean

A belt-driven, Alfine-equipped CF 29er is a tall order! I don't know if I'd want to subject a CF frame to winter conditions, just because of the expense. Check out the Gates Carbon Drive website for manufacturers of belt-driven bikes:

https://www.carbondrivesystems.com/contact.php?lang=us

BTW although aluminum frames are less affected by winter conditions than steel, both should be protected from the elements. Liberal amounts of grease on exposed metal and a nice car wax job on the frame go a long way toward protecting the bike.

Canuckophile

Hi, yes, I think that Aluminum would probably be the best way to go for winter cycling. What frames do you recommend?

For my type of commuting in winter, which type of handle bars are you recommending?

Are you still recommending a 29er for my type of commuting? Or the 26er?

Thank you

irclean

Again, I can only tell you what I'd buy with your money. I described what works for me in post #2, but if you read tsl's posts you'll see that the only things we have in common between our chosen winter rides are disc brakes, studded tires, and fenders. My advice, FWIW, is to choose the type of bike that you feel most comfortable riding. You'd be better off posting examples of bikes that you think you'd like to ride for your winter commute here, and then asking for opinions about winterizing said bikes.

Personally, I prefer commuting on 700c wheels. I find that when they're equipped with my 35mm studded tires they cut through the snow to grab the frozen surface beneath. There are days, however, when I wish I had a backup winter commuter armed with big, fat studded tires like the Extreme 294. That said, 9 days out of 10 (or more) that setup would be overkill for my winter commute. If you're facing a lot of snow and roads that don't get plowed too often then a 29er with aggressive studs might be right up your alley. Whatever you choose, you're bound to experience some buyer's remorse, since there's no one bike that will be perfect for every situation. The best you can do is find what works for the majority of conditions you face. I chose my bike after riding through winter conditions on other bikes and deciding what I wanted based on that experience.

As for handlebars, I first tried using the wide MTB bars that came stock on my bike, but I found that the wide grip made the bike unwieldy. It was difficult to ride on slippery roads and I felt like I was constantly fighting just to stay in control. I switched to trekking bars to allow me to bring my arms in and sit upright on slippery sections, and to be able to move back to a wide grip when the road cleared. It turned out to be the perfect solution for me.

Before:




After:




Have fun shopping!

blakcloud

I live in Toronto and cycle through the winter. Two years ago I bought a Specialized Centrum Sport for winter use. It has disc brakes, room for big mountain bike tires 2.1 and its single speed. I didn't use studded tires but wish I had for the two times I fell on ice. Inexepensive Planet Bike fenders were also installed. This bike was almost perfect for me but there is one thing I didn't like and that is bottom bracket height. Though this bike is designed to be a simple go to the coffee shop bike, they put this incredible high bottom bracket for no apparent reason. It is not a mountain bike, not designed as a mountain bike yet it has a mountain bike bottom bracket geometry.

To be fair, I have a thing about bottom bracket height and am very opinionated about this. But the reason it bugs me on this bike is when you put 2.1's on this bike, it becomes even higher and this makes the bike difficult to get on or off. In the winter, if I need to dab my foot down because of slipping or just stopping and starting at a traffic light, it is an effort to get back on the seat. I hate this bike so much because of this I gave it to my son. I just can't do another season of a bottom bracket that high. I always feel like I need a ladder just to get on the bike. In the summer it isn't so bad, but winter riding is a different ball game. Stopping in the snow and then starting again, trying to get back on the seat because you need the weight on the rear wheel for traction. If this bike was 1.5 inches lower, it would be my perfect bike.

When I hear others recommend getting a 29er for winter cycling I cringe because they will no doubt have this high bottom bracket that just isn't needed in the winter and just makes it more difficult. But, as I always say, to each their own. Maybe you would love this style of bike.

I wonder if the MEC Hold Steady would be a contender as it is similar to the Norco Cerres without the dreaded belt drive which makes it about 250 dollars cheaper. This is the bike I am thinking of using, but removing the IGH and turning it into a single speed. I am going to check it out today and of course measure the bottom bracket height.

I have yet to figure out if a bike with 35c studded tires like Bruce uses, or a mountain bike studded tire is the way to go. In my mind I feel more comfortable on a big tire, but maybe Bruce is right, let the tire cut though the snow. Maybe a cycle cross bike is the way to go. Trial and error I guess.

And for the record I grew up in Ottawa, worked at Pecco's and rode my mountain bike in the winter so I know your weather well. I use to ride my bike early in the morning on the frozen canal before the skaters go there to go to work in the Market. As long as I didn't make abrupt changes or hit those big compression cracks in the ice, it was clear sailing and I did this without studs.

Good luck in what you choose.

electrik

50km(1.5hrs on a sunny day?) in -15 to 20 is an epic commute let alone when it's snowing. I can say you'll start running into cold feet and hand problems and carrying a heck load of gear. I'm guessing this isn't all urban commute so there is a large danger of being stranded?

You'll be best to run single-speed and a durable hub... i'm sorta worried based on the level your knowledge and the difficulty of this commute you've set yourself... have you tried it before under difficult weather?

Captain Blight

If you're skinny, rock the fats.
\If you're fat, rock the skinnies.


That's about all I got. well, okay, there's more. Buy a second rear fender and cut it down a little to mount on the front wheel. I like great big platform pedals, others disagree.

Gear deeeeeeeep. My big ring is a 42; my big cog, a 30. So I run a 40/42 half-step combo with a 22T small ring for bailout and real deep snow. You may run out of speed 2 or 3 times a winter, but you'll never run out of torque.

You don't need studs as often as you think you will. In general, you need less tread than you think you do. I got through an entire winter with 39-42x11-21 7-speed with fenderless slicks. This combo sucked wet dead bats through a straw lined with broken glass-- but I got through.
\
Keep it outside. Freeze/thaw cycles lead to ice buildup in the freewhee/hub and will make you wax wrathful.

Keep it clean.

keep it clean.

]keep it clean.

Dean7

You must ride this commute for epic awesomeness. I will personally give you a high five next time I'm in your area.