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Smaller Studded tires??

Old 11-21-09, 09:08 PM
  #1  
ejbarnes
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Smaller Studded tires??

Does anyone know of a smaller sized studded tire?

This summer I bought a Paddy Wagon hoping to ride it this winter.
Today I decided to try a set of 35mm studded tires and this is just not going to work.
Not enough clearance at the front brake and very little at the front fork. At this point I didn't even bother trying the back wheel.
The tires are Innova 700-35C. A 700-28 with studs would fit but for the life of me I can't find any.
Google must be just about sick of this search.
This is not the end of my winter riding as I do have an old bike that the tires will fit but the maintenance is pretty high this bike.
Thanks for helping. Hope you enjoy the snow as much as I will.
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Old 11-22-09, 01:39 AM
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The narrowest commercially available studded tires that I know of is the Nokian A10 at 32mm wide. The Nokian website doesn't list any 700c A10's but I know that Peter White is advertising them for sale on his website for $38.00 USD a piece. He will ship to Canada - just email him to ask about shipping costs. Before you do that try asking your LBS about the Nokian A10s. My LBS just ordered in a set of Schwalbe Marathon Winters for me, but at 35c they'd be too wide for your application. While searching for the tires I saw they had at their disposal just about every single studded tire I've ever heard of. Another alternative is to make your own tires. Check out this thread posted right here if you want to go that route. Good luck, and ride safe this winter!
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Old 11-22-09, 07:03 AM
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The A10s fit fine on a Paddy Wagon.
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Old 11-23-09, 07:50 AM
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I will order a set today. Thanks folks this will keep me riding through the winter.
A10 How cool is that? The A10 is my second most favorite air plane. Right behind the Avero Aero... Hey!!! I am Canadian!
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Old 11-23-09, 08:06 AM
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You might want to order extras, the A10 is not in Nokian currect product line. They'll only be available as long as stocks last. Nokian narrowest is currently the W106, at same nominal 35mm as the Schwalbes.
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Old 11-24-09, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Juha View Post
You might want to order extras, the A10 is not in Nokian currect product line. They'll only be available as long as stocks last. Nokian narrowest is currently the W106, at same nominal 35mm as the Schwalbes.
Ordered four of the A10s today. Hopefully my next bike will fit larger tires.
KONA makes a single speed cross bike that should fit the order.
Thanks for the info everyone. The forum shines today.
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Old 11-28-09, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Juha View Post
You might want to order extras, the A10 is not in Nokian currect product line. They'll only be available as long as stocks last. Nokian narrowest is currently the W106, at same nominal 35mm as the Schwalbes.
Yes, but the reason for that (in my opinion, I don't have any inside knowledge or anything) is that the Nokian A10's completely and totally suck as studded tires. At least that's the impression I've gotten from reading forum posts here from people who ride them. Seems like they're absolutely awful with any snow, at all, whatsoever, and I've read accounts from people who have slipped on sheer ice with then as well (those people might have gone through snow first, not sure). The impression I've gotten is that about the only thing they're good for is if you want an extra set of tires for those "the temp is below freezing, but there's no snow or ice that I know of yet, or it's nearly all melted" days. And frankly, though it's more expensive, the Schwalbe Marathon tires at high pressure are a better tire as they roll just as fast but can also handle any degree of ice with lower pressures.

Though they don't come in a size below 35c.

I'm just trying to be helpful with what I know. Your location says Ontario, Canada - I don't think the A10's are a good choice for that location, in other words - anywhere with any real snow and ice.
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Old 11-29-09, 07:52 AM
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I will have to let you know how these tires work out. All of my riding will be road riding and the skinny tires will get to the asphalt better than the a wider tire. The weather in this part of Ontario is not really that bad as we are a long way south. I think we are south of twenty or 21 states. At 44deg North we are way South of the 49th. Think of Buffalo temperatures with about 10% of the snow. The North shore of Lake Ontario has very little lake effect weather. I drive abut 250Km (150 miles) to get to the good ski areas.
Another winter bike that I ride has a set of Innova studded tires and they work great, too bad the studs wear away so fast.
Minneapolis? Now that is cold and snowy and windy. My riding is no where near what you would see.
Life is short. Enjoy the ride.
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Old 11-30-09, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Yes, but the reason for that (in my opinion, I don't have any inside knowledge or anything) is that the Nokian A10's completely and totally suck as studded tires. At least that's the impression I've gotten from reading forum posts here from people who ride them. Seems like they're absolutely awful with any snow, at all, whatsoever, and I've read accounts from people who have slipped on sheer ice with then as well (those people might have gone through snow first, not sure). The impression I've gotten is that about the only thing they're good for is if you want an extra set of tires for those "the temp is below freezing, but there's no snow or ice that I know of yet, or it's nearly all melted" days. And frankly, though it's more expensive, the Schwalbe Marathon tires at high pressure are a better tire as they roll just as fast but can also handle any degree of ice with lower pressures.

Though they don't come in a size below 35c.

I'm just trying to be helpful with what I know. Your location says Ontario, Canada - I don't think the A10's are a good choice for that location, in other words - anywhere with any real snow and ice.
I rode on A10s all last winter in Milwaukee. There was a lot of snow and ice and general nastiness and I managed to survive. True, the A10s aren't great in the snow, but I didn't fall down all winter, so they must not have been totally worthless. This year I'm riding Mount & Grounds on my mountain bike. I'll let you know how the two compare once we get some winter weather here.
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Old 11-30-09, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bwe View Post
I rode on A10s all last winter in Milwaukee. There was a lot of snow and ice and general nastiness and I managed to survive. True, the A10s aren't great in the snow, but I didn't fall down all winter, so they must not have been totally worthless. This year I'm riding Mount & Grounds on my mountain bike. I'll let you know how the two compare once we get some winter weather here.
Reading between the lines though, seems like if you're trying another tire, the A10's must have been less than ideal at least, right?

I'm just trying to be helpful, so I don't want to sound argumentative. Seems like in real life, nearly everyone I meet thinks winter biking is "crazy", until I explain exercise == warm and studded tires == grip on ice (most people have heard of studded tires on cars in the old days), then the few people I can convince to try it want the most grip they can get. On the forums on the other hand, there always seems to be someone (this is *not* directed at you) who pops up every time there's a mention of the *need* for studded tires to say that they ride all winter without studs, because they have mad bike handling skills on ice, and sure they fell down a few times but it wasn't a big deal. To me, that's just way to much risk - I've fallen down on ice before, and I most definitely am not willing to risk falling down on the street in front of a car. Uuuuh....so what I'm saying is, I'm pretty risk adverse when it comes to winter biking. When someone says "you can get by" with some lesser tires, my first thought is "I'm not willing to take that chance". But...there certainly seem to be a small number of people who are. I suppose I cannot entirely speak to whether that's a risk for them or not - for one thing, I don't even know what they're riding habits are. If it only snows 4 times a year where they live, and they never ride when there's snow left on the ground, it's different than my riding habits - or my generally anticipated riding habits for other people.

I found the post on A10's that I was thinking of -
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-be-cutting-it

"Nokian A10's - don't seem to be cutting it - I went down twice today. Once from rear wheel slip and the other front. Both on moderate hills featuring glare ice covered with a thin layer of new, loose snow..."

"In this case the falls were due to the ice more than the snow. There was less than 1/2" of snow on top of the ice. The bike just went right out from under me."

He also mentions he was on a road bike, possibly standing up while pedalling, so perhaps he was being overly aggressive with the tires - I do not know.

Just trying to share the information I know of. Good luck.
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Old 11-30-09, 02:08 PM
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I would agree that the A10s could be more aggressive, but they still helped me a lot on the ice last winter. If your bike doesn't have clearance for 35c tires, the A10s are a much better option than going without studs entirely. I'm planning on riding two bikes this winter - an old mountain bike with Mount & Grounds and a fixed gear bike with the A10s. I'll ride the A10s in nicer conditions.
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Old 12-01-09, 07:29 AM
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After the tires arrive I will make a post as to how well they work.
And for good measure I will try to ride them in deep snow too.
This will all be on the road as I am a roadie looking to try and keep some muscle memory.

Just to add a little more to the test I will ride in fixed mode too.
Not having pure asphalt traction is to be expected as it will be winter riding. Imagine the stability skills acquired by riding on inferior tires.
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Old 12-01-09, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Reading between the lines though, seems like if you're trying another tire, the A10's must have been less than ideal at least, right?

I'm just trying to be helpful, so I don't want to sound argumentative. Seems like in real life, nearly everyone I meet thinks winter biking is "crazy", until I explain exercise == warm and studded tires == grip on ice (most people have heard of studded tires on cars in the old days), then the few people I can convince to try it want the most grip they can get. On the forums on the other hand, there always seems to be someone (this is *not* directed at you) who pops up every time there's a mention of the *need* for studded tires to say that they ride all winter without studs, because they have mad bike handling skills on ice, and sure they fell down a few times but it wasn't a big deal. To me, that's just way to much risk - I've fallen down on ice before, and I most definitely am not willing to risk falling down on the street in front of a car. Uuuuh....so what I'm saying is, I'm pretty risk adverse when it comes to winter biking. When someone says "you can get by" with some lesser tires, my first thought is "I'm not willing to take that chance". But...there certainly seem to be a small number of people who are. I suppose I cannot entirely speak to whether that's a risk for them or not - for one thing, I don't even know what they're riding habits are. If it only snows 4 times a year where they live, and they never ride when there's snow left on the ground, it's different than my riding habits - or my generally anticipated riding habits for other people.

I found the post on A10's that I was thinking of -
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-be-cutting-it

"Nokian A10's - don't seem to be cutting it - I went down twice today. Once from rear wheel slip and the other front. Both on moderate hills featuring glare ice covered with a thin layer of new, loose snow..."

"In this case the falls were due to the ice more than the snow. There was less than 1/2" of snow on top of the ice. The bike just went right out from under me."

He also mentions he was on a road bike, possibly standing up while pedalling, so perhaps he was being overly aggressive with the tires - I do not know.

Just trying to share the information I know of. Good luck.
Weird to see your own posts a year later ;-)

If an A10 is your only option then they're better than regular tires. I was reasonably happy with them for "normal" winter riding, - a little ice, some hardpack, etc. But I remember those hills and that day well. Going uphill on glare ice covered by just enough snow to make it extra slippery. The A10s weren't up to it. Prior to last year I was using some more aggressive studded tires so maybe my expectations were too high. Anyway, that hill wasn't my only less than satisfactory experience with them, so I sold them before the season was over. It took awhile to sell them too once I explained why I didn't want them anymore. Had to be honest.
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Old 12-01-09, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tjspiel View Post
Weird to see your own posts a year later ;-)
Word. I wonder if that guy ever got his bike pulled out of the ocean.
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Old 12-01-09, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tjspiel View Post
Weird to see your own posts a year later ;-)

If an A10 is your only option then they're better than regular tires. I was reasonably happy with them for "normal" winter riding, - a little ice, some hardpack, etc. But I remember those hills and that day well. Going uphill on glare ice covered by just enough snow to make it extra slippery. The A10s weren't up to it. Prior to last year I was using some more aggressive studded tires so maybe my expectations were too high. Anyway, that hill wasn't my only less than satisfactory experience with them, so I sold them before the season was over. It took awhile to sell them too once I explained why I didn't want them anymore. Had to be honest.
Just wondering what type of riding are you doing?
I am looking for tires to road ride.
I do know that these tires are not for mountain bike type of excursions and I don't plan on riding much more than 30KPH or so. this is a single speed/fixed gear bicycle.
These tires weigh about 4 times as much as a road tire. Therefore I don't think I will be running the pressure anywhere near 120PSI. 80 PSI or maybe even as low as 60 PSI on snow covered roads should do.
If the snow gets deep I will ride the geared bike with the Nokians. They are great in the snow I have even ridden them on icy trails keeping up with mountain bikes. The Nokians are great tires... better if the studs were carbide though.
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Old 12-01-09, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ejbarnes View Post
The Nokians are great tires... better if the studs were carbide though.
???

I don't believe Nokian makes *any* studded tires with non-carbide studs.
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Old 12-01-09, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ejbarnes View Post
Just wondering what type of riding are you doing?
I am looking for tires to road ride.
I do know that these tires are not for mountain bike type of excursions and I don't plan on riding much more than 30KPH or so. this is a single speed/fixed gear bicycle.
These tires weigh about 4 times as much as a road tire. Therefore I don't think I will be running the pressure anywhere near 120PSI. 80 PSI or maybe even as low as 60 PSI on snow covered roads should do.
If the snow gets deep I will ride the geared bike with the Nokians. They are great in the snow I have even ridden them on icy trails keeping up with mountain bikes. The Nokians are great tires... better if the studs were carbide though.
During the winter I ride my bike to work and back but not a lot else. My route is on streets and paved trails that get plowed. The streets in my neighborhood are not necessarily plowed well. The plows make a cursory pass or two while it's snowing but don't plow to the curbs until the post storm parking bans, - by which time much of the snow is packed down anyway. If it only snows an inch or two they may not plow at all. Last year in particular this built up over time into a rutted, slippery mess.

So I started out fairly content with the A10s but as I ran into some poorer road conditions I became less satisfied and eventually downright frustrated. However, last year had probably the worst conditions from day to day I've experienced in the 4 years of winter riding I've done. Taking in that into consideration my overall opinion of the A10s was a little less harsh toward the end of the season than it was during the middle.

I have two main complaints. The first is that there's not enough studs and they're placed too far to the outside of the tire. This lowers the rolling resistance on dry pavement but means less grab on ice. The second complaint is that the tread gets packed with snow too easily. When this happens you might as well be riding on slicks. In fact, slicks may be better. There's just not enough room between tread blocks for the snow to get shed. I suppose there's only so much you can do on that thin of tire.
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Old 12-02-09, 07:05 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
???

I don't believe Nokian makes *any* studded tires with non-carbide studs.
Yup! Sorry! This was me typing before thinking.
I meant Innova.
My Innova tires have a lot of snow mileage.
Maybe I could by cardie studs and change them... That would cost as much as a decent cross bike though.
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Old 12-02-09, 09:06 PM
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The tires arrived today and I managed to get the 50K break-in done.
These tires are so close to what I was looking for.
Just the right number of studs and the tread is not overly aggressive. Good for snow but not great for mud.
The centre rib will help to keep the rolling resistance down. This is a good thing as the tires are heavy and this can be felt when accelerating or climbing a hill.

Today I rode at a fairly low pressure hoping to seat the studs properly. They are definitely not a road racing tire.
The A10s seem squirmy (if that is a word) this would be due to the square edges and the low pressures.
Temperature may have had something to do with this as it is still very warm at 6C.
The characteristics of the tires seem pretty good at speed. Over 45 KPH a couple of times and they never felt overly worrisome. Lets see what happens when I over cook a corner someday.

The single speed has a 42 Chain ring and an 18 Cog and I can still feel the weight of the tires especially when climbing.

Next time out I will try 80 PSI and see if they feel better or if I am just being picky.

Almost forgot. The fit. One MM larger and I think that I would have been in trouble. Not at the front fork but at the chain stays.
Maybe some pictures later.
Thanks for the help everyone. Thanks to you the tires are on the bike before the snow.
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Old 12-02-09, 10:37 PM
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Used under the right conditions and with the right expectations I think these tires can work out quite well.

Good Luck.
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Old 12-08-09, 08:56 AM
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My A10s were "squirmy" for their first 50-100 miles and then they got better. This morning, I rode in on the Mount & Grounds through a light snow cover and noticed that they do a much better job of shedding snow than the A10s. They are a substantially bigger tire though, so they are a lot slower on dry pavement than the A10s. Bike gear, as with most things in life, involves a lot of trade-offs. That's why I'm pleased to have two winter bikes this year!
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Old 12-08-09, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ejbarnes View Post
...Just the right number of studs and the tread is not overly aggressive. Good for snow but not great for mud. The centre rib will help to keep the rolling resistance down. This is a good thing as the tires are heavy and this can be felt when accelerating or climbing a hill...
Glad you got your tires, they fit, and hope they work out for you. I've read all your posts, and I am certainly curious what your experience with them in snow and ice is. But I do think, being that you haven't encountered any snow or ice yet, with all due respect, I think that it may be a bit early to come to conclusions about their stud count or usability in snow.

Hope they work out for you!
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Old 12-09-09, 06:12 AM
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Sorry about that but after 30 years in the Auto industry and about the same amount of time involved in different kinds of racing on and off road events this tire fits into the same pattern that works on a rally racer in snow. I find that most people purchase tires based on looks rather than function. Off road trucks like big fat tires but in snow they float too much. Kids in the little rice rockets tend to buy the thin little rubber bands. Pretty good for a nice smooth race track with corners but not very good on the street. No off the line traction and they brake a lot of rims.
Yesterday we had snow along with a melt and refreeze. Living in a rural area the roads are not perfectly cleaned. Up hill, down hill in the corners and where ever I could take the tires they worked flawlessly. They impressed me and of course I wanted them to be good.
When on snow the flotation was minimal and when on ice or hard pack almost the same due to the studs.
Managed to hit 40Kph on snow and without any real pucker factor involved. When I become more familiar with these tires and winter riding I will of course be taking more chances.
I tend to ski faster than I should and I also tend to try and ride as close to traction loss as possible. It is going to hurt but I need the excitement.
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