patentcad

I did notice in yesterday's TT that some of the faster guys were holding that aero tuck going into
the headwind, but that did not work for me. I was on my aero bars, but elbows lifted, as if I was climbing an upgrade, because I can't put out the same wattage in full aero position. So that's a problem, I was wondering what I can do? I'm convinced the lack of aero added 30+ seconds to my time Sunday. For the wattage I put down I think I should have gone faster, and not being tucked into a wicked headwind isn't good.

I'm going to set the TT bike up on the trainer and start looking at the wattages I crank, then altering
the position. I was thinking move my seat forward and tilt the nose down a bit? Could be time for a TT fit, but I'm not sure I trust any of the local TT fit places anymore than I trust myself and the feedback I get here.
I can get aero, I can put down my FTP of 275 watts, but to put down 300+ I start getting un-aero, so it's back to the TT bike position drawing board. I'm sure this is how everyone eventually gets more aero on their TT bike. You have to race, re-evaluate, make changes, race some more.

Yesterday's race might have been somewhat of an aberration, typically I'm in that elbows-not-dropped position on my TT bike when I'm climbing @ 15-19mph when aero position isn't so critical. Much more critical when you're trying to go 20mph+ in to a stiff breeze. That latter circumstance is not uncommon in TTs of course, and you do want to be able to hold the tuck and hammer as hard as you can...

waterrockets 

Work on hamstring stretches and building some core strength. Get to where you can get both fists on the ground with feet together and straight knees. It helped me a bunch. Not only did I used to be weak in the aero position, but my legs would actually fall asleep. Now I'm comfortable, same power as road position, and was even able to lower my bars by 3.5cm.

patentcad

Oh well. I doubt that will ever happen. I do 4-5 TTs a year. I hate stretching but I do have pretty good core strength now. I love TTs, but not as much as I hate to stretch. I do it for my back already, so I'm not as un-limber as you would think.

I was hoping a change in position on the bike might help, but you're probably 100% correct.

markfosterTT

Sounds like you need a proper adjustment. Ask around at the next TT where people go to get a good fit. Find someone who not only has the experience and education in fitting, but also TTs. I think experienced racers are the best fitters.
Even if you only do 4-5 TTs a year, you may really improve your times just by being comfortable.

I also agree with having a strong core. That helps out a lot.

patentcad

I think Dr. W. should come to my house, fit me on my TT bike, give me a chiro adjustment and sign an autograph for me for free.

merlinextraligh

+! on the stretching. Beyond that I think its a matter of spending time training on the TT bike.

patentcad

Perhaps. I'm convinced there's something wrong with my position. I'll be working on it.

pseudobrit

What if you just put out less power when you start to lift? It doesn't do any good to crank 300 and lose 30 when your tuck comes undone, right?

This is the first thing I thought of. If you're pulling back it means you're stretching. A more nose-down position might keep your center of gravity tipped more firmly into those bars.

waterrockets 

Note that the stretching has allowed me to get lower and more comfortable in the road/drops position. There's no losing with stretching. Just work on it every day for a week (5-10 minutes, right after a ride when the muscles are supple), then twice/week after that. I'll bet you'll make huge improvements.

When you're posting here for recommendations, post video. I got much better feedback that way. (that video is out of date -- I'm a lot lower now)

patentcad

Good points. It's all going into the mix. I'll be doing some sessions over the next couple of weeks on the trainer with a mirror and the PTap trying to figure this out. First I'll raise the saddle, raise the bars, move the saddle up and tip the nose down. Let's see how that works. A position that's 2cm higher but allows me to stay on my elbows will be far more aero than what I was doing yesterday. I'll work on the stretching too, that will also help my back.

Jynx

where are the obligatory patentcad photos?

carlfreddy

pcad! Thats easily the most important part of the ride; stretching afterwards!

I usually don't stretch immediately following a ride like waterrockets, but I stretch and/or use the foam roller every single day!

Start stretching regularly and you'll see results.

patentcad

I hate stretching. The more you tell me to do it the more I hate it. In fact now that you're harping on it I also hate you.

Don't feel bad, I hate everybody, it's racing season. See Universal Loathing.

wanders

Get thee to a wind tunnel as done by the good doctor.

jfmckenna

Getting aero is more important then loosing a few watts and in fact can actually gain you a few watts.

Have a look at this: https://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?...letters03-04#4

patentcad

A 'wind tunnel'? But wanders, Orange County NY is a wind tunnel.

MarkSch

Don't have a power-meter and its been almost 20 years since I raced a TT, and then as part of triathlons...but I'm with jfmckenna on this one.

Don't be a slave to the power-meter!

One wins by covering the course in least amount of TIME not by expending the most POWER over that TIME.

I think most of us can generate the most power with our hands on the tops...like for climbing...but in the TT our key impediment is wind resistance...the more aero position may generate less power, but if it cheats the wind enough, the end result may be greater speed...and that's what you really care about.

so if you are going to do power meter testing, I'd focus on the position that gives you the greatest speed into a constant wind....the greater the headwind, the more important the aerodynamics will be....

I'm sure someone can provide exactly the equation that tells us how much more important, and can calculate off of your 275 watt output the number of watts you can sacrifice to have the aero position offer the best speed.

patentcad

What's useful about a PM is you can dial up to 300-350 watts in any given position and then figure out what position on the bike makes that easier....

DrWJODonnell

Pcad, I don't know if this helps, but BEFORE my wind tunnel experience I did some calculations using analyticcycling.com and determining at what speed power trumps aero. For me, anything over about 15 mph I start taking aero losses. Anything over 22 I will not sacrifice aerodynamics for power. I believe that aerodynamics were MUCH more important in the Headwind and so while you would have sacrificed power, you should have stayed the TT position at all times. But, this is how we learn. Congrats on your time btw.

MarkSch

But like DrWJO'D just said....you're more interested in how fast you go (which is likely more dependent on how aero you are) as opposed to what your power output is....you might be FASTER in a position that only allows you to generate 300 watts if you are more aero than a position that allows for 350.

(Don't) be the wind.