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  1. #6276
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    I just ride up 20+ minute hills.

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  2. #6277
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    on this same issue of PRs and power numbers, does anyone here set PRs on the flats while at higher RPMs, or do you set them like I do ... uphill, standing and at lower RPMs.

    I am starting to track two power numbers. Hill Power numbers and then seated flat high RPM power numbers. I am finding the two numbers are very different and that it is causing problems for my track work. Going out as hard as I can on a flat surface at 110 RPM gives me a totally different power number than 70 RPM up a 6% grade. Adjusting my goals and training has been a bit of a morale letdown, but something that I think is helping my leg speed and general race fitness.
    I've done a few tests of terrain vs. 5' power. I'm consistent, within a Watt or two, between an 8% climb or a rolling course (5' around a 7' loop). In the heat of summer, I've started swapping hill repeats for open road for VO2Max intervals too. This keeps me cooler, and I can hit the same power numbers even with 45mph descents during the interval.

  3. #6278
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    on this same issue of PRs and power numbers, does anyone here set PRs on the flats while at higher RPMs, or do you set them like I do ... uphill, standing and at lower RPMs.
    What is this "uphill" of which you speak?
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  4. #6279
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    I just ride up 20+ minute hills.
    That works. The steadier the grade, the better.

    I don't know anyone who does 60 minute tests.

  5. #6280
    Senior Member Wylde06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    I just ride up 20+ minute hills.
    If I had a 20+ minute hill I wouldn't know what to do with myself. I don't even have a 2 minute hill. What are hills?

  6. #6281
    Must Go Faster veloboy971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creatre View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it wrong, and I think my credentials agree with that, but everyone has their own approach.

    Doing my intervals at the end of a ride ensures I get maximum tss for the ride, and prepares the body to do hard efforts towards the end of a race. I don't go all out during intervals because I'm working on specific regions of my power range to build power and I do so many that if I went all out during the first I wouldn't be able to complete the workout.

    For me it depends on what kind of intervals I am doing. Being able to crack out a max 5 minute number in the first 1/3 of the race probably won't do anything but waste energy. However being able to do 92% of your max 5 minute power at the end of a race, if executed in the right spot likely will do some damage. That's the value I see in doing intervals at the end
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  7. #6282
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloboy971 View Post
    For me it depends on what kind of intervals I am doing. Being able to crack out a max 5 minute number in the first 1/3 of the race probably won't do anything but waste energy. However being able to do 92% of your max 5 minute power at the end of a race, if executed in the right spot likely will do some damage. That's the value I see in doing intervals at the end
    It's good to vary it. There are advantages to simulating the situation, but there are also advantages to nailing yourself squarely in your training zones when you're fresh, to efficiently generate the training stress.


  8. #6283
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I've done a few tests of terrain vs. 5' power. I'm consistent, within a Watt or two, between an 8% climb or a rolling course (5' around a 7' loop). In the heat of summer, I've started swapping hill repeats for open road for VO2Max intervals too. This keeps me cooler, and I can hit the same power numbers even with 45mph descents during the interval.
    Along these lines a new trick for this old dog has been realizing the impact even 200W can have on speed down a modest hill. I'm using gearing much more aggressively over rollers than I did pre-PM.

  9. #6284
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    I've been setting power PRs practically every ride the past couple of weeks. It's awesome, but what's got me worried is that they are not always correlated with hill climb PRs (though sometimes they are). I'm going to borrow a powertap tomorrow and run it along with my crank PM to make sure it's not lying to me.

  10. #6285
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    I've been setting power PRs practically every ride the past couple of weeks. It's awesome, but what's got me worried is that they are not always correlated with hill climb PRs (though sometimes they are). I'm going to borrow a powertap tomorrow and run it along with my crank PM to make sure it's not lying to me.
    The past couple of times I made a bump up to the next level I kept questioning my power meter over and over. But eventually realized that fitness had just gone to a new level. There are actually posts in the quarq thread on SC where I thought my Quarq was broken.

    But then again I dunno about the stages still, but it seems like it's been reliable for you for the most part.
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  11. #6286
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    The failure mode of my Quarqs were always the other way around.

  12. #6287
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    The failure mode of my Quarqs were always the other way around.
    My Riken is still really solid at the moment. I'm thinking of maybe switching to a powertap over the winter though just because I only use one set of wheels anyway and don't like all the bad stuff I've seen on Quarq's still. But not sure yet.
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  13. #6288
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    If you're Riken is solid, it's solid. I'd ride it until you suspect it's gone bad.

  14. #6289
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    I've been setting power PRs practically every ride the past couple of weeks. It's awesome, but what's got me worried is that they are not always correlated with hill climb PRs (though sometimes they are). I'm going to borrow a powertap tomorrow and run it along with my crank PM to make sure it's not lying to me.


    I did this experiment today, running a borrowed (old silver PT Pro) Powertap along with my (Cannondale) Stages.


    AP: Stages 166w, PT 157w (diff 9w, 5.4%)
    Z4 interval: Stages 286w, PT 272w (diff 14w, 4.9%)
    Z5 interval: Stages 341w, PT 325w (diff 16w, 4.7%)
    Max: Stages 853w, PT 814w (diff 39w, 4.6%)


    According to Home page Friction Facts, drive train losses should be about 3% of total power. In my case, the chain and crank are practically new, but the cassette on the Powertap was very bad, slipping frequently (every 15-30 seconds) when power was anywhere above Z4.

    Based only on this information, it appears the Stages is reading a few percent high. I'll send the data to Stages and see what they say.

  15. #6290
    Senior Member bbbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    I did this experiment today, running a borrowed (old silver PT Pro) Powertap along with my (Cannondale) Stages.


    AP: Stages 166w, PT 157w (diff 9w, 5.4%)
    Z4 interval: Stages 286w, PT 272w (diff 14w, 4.9%)
    Z5 interval: Stages 341w, PT 325w (diff 16w, 4.7%)
    Max: Stages 853w, PT 814w (diff 39w, 4.6%)


    According to Home page Friction Facts, drive train losses should be about 3% of total power. In my case, the chain and crank are practically new, but the cassette on the Powertap was very bad, slipping frequently (every 15-30 seconds) when power was anywhere above Z4.

    Based only on this information, it appears the Stages is reading a few percent high. I'll send the data to Stages and see what they say.
    Or maybe the PT is a little low. As long as the unit is consistent on the bike you train/race with, does it matter?
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  16. #6291
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
    Or maybe the PT is a little low. As long as the unit is consistent on the bike you train/race with, does it matter?
    only in that if it's reading high he won't, for the next couple of years, know if he's actually seeing improvement or just drift. Won't matter in a race, but would be pretty irritating each upload.

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  17. #6292
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
    Or maybe the PT is a little low. As long as the unit is consistent on the bike you train/race with, does it matter?

    I have another Stages on a different bike, so it matters if one of them is reading high compared to the other. Unfortunately I can't compare them directly to each other, but the reason I started looking at this in the first place was that I noticed higher power with the Cannondale Stages, compared to the Rival Stages, was not as correlated with faster hill climb times as it should have been.

  18. #6293
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    Stages support acknowledged that the PM appears to be reading high, and offered to take it back for recalibration. They said they have had some calibration problems with their Cannondale units, because the aluminum is so much thinner on SISL crankarms compared to Rival or Dura-Ace.

    I have nothing but good things to say about Stages support, they were never defensive about the problem or trying to find fault with my claims.

    I didn't want to send the unit back before this weekend's race (which I didn't end up racing anyway), and in the meantime there was an annoying BB-area creak I wanted to deal with, so I took the crank arms and pedals off and greased everything. Once reinstalled, the unit now seems to be reading accurately! I did a 13-minute climb yesterday and the power was very consistent with the time.

  19. #6294
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    how useful is a powermeter if the readings can be thrown off (or i guess in this case...on) by greasing the bb?
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  20. #6295
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    Stages support acknowledged that the PM appears to be reading high, and offered to take it back for recalibration. They said they have had some calibration problems with their Cannondale units, because the aluminum is so much thinner on SISL crankarms compared to Rival or Dura-Ace.

    I have nothing but good things to say about Stages support, they were never defensive about the problem or trying to find fault with my claims.

    I didn't want to send the unit back before this weekend's race (which I didn't end up racing anyway), and in the meantime there was an annoying BB-area creak I wanted to deal with, so I took the crank arms and pedals off and greased everything. Once reinstalled, the unit now seems to be reading accurately! I did a 13-minute climb yesterday and the power was very consistent with the time.


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  21. #6296
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
    how useful is a powermeter if the readings can be thrown off (or i guess in this case...on) by greasing the bb?

    Charitably, the installation was tweaked in some way that created some tension in the crankarm, throwing off the power readings and causing a creak. Uncharitably, the unit is oversensitive to conditions. Time will tell.

  22. #6297
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised if the vibrations sent through the crankarms from the creak could cause some noise in the sensor readings. Not the end of the world to keep your BB from creaking.
    Last edited by waterrockets; 08-04-14 at 08:02 AM.

  23. #6298
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    Quarq firmware got released this week, with this functionality:

    - Activates accelerometer cadence in all power meters with an LED and CR2032 battery. Accelerometer cadence will switch on automatically when a magnet is not present.

    Could be interesting. Wondering the accuracy and if it's worth having a magnet now.
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  24. #6299
    Senior Member Wylde06's Avatar
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    Ive had the wahoo key for a few weeks now and still havent updated. I think I will now. I wonder if its a fail safe so if you lose your magnet you will still have power? Would be interesting to see if things are the same with and without.

  25. #6300
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    I believe someone from Quarq mentioned on the Wattage list that the feature is intended as a backup for when the magnet is not available - perhaps it's not perfected for very low or high cadences. Worth updating for imo, just in case..

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