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Old 08-19-09, 08:30 PM   #1351
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
Holy CRAP!

Wait.

Are you sure that's right?

The 7 second is too low for a 1 sec that high. If you can hit 1900 for even a second, your 10 second should be atleast 1300+.
That's what I'm thinking. His FTP looks like it's in the 250 range, his 5 sec is like 1100, but his 1 sec is 1920? Something there is wrong.
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Old 08-19-09, 08:49 PM   #1352
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Whoops...

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Old 08-19-09, 09:42 PM   #1353
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
Holy CRAP!

Wait.

Are you sure that's right?

The 7 second is too low for a 1 sec that high. If you can hit 1900 for even a second, your 10 second should be atleast 1300+.
I only have files from the last 3 weeks. Only one was a race, which was right after a vacation, so I never sprinted. Only times I tried are in training up a short hill after a fast downhill. Who said I ever tried sprinting for 10 seconds, let alone more than 4-5sec?


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That's what I'm thinking. His FTP looks like it's in the 250 range, his 5 sec is like 1100, but his 1 sec is 1920? Something there is wrong.
I just tested today at 303w. 5 sec is 1300w. Very sharp drop-off after 5sec (7s is 1116w). Like I said, never tried sprinting for more than 4-5sec.

68kg.
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Old 08-20-09, 06:45 AM   #1354
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Well, you posted your power profile and if you don't have a high power up to atleast 10-15 secs, then it looks like there was an error. That's just how it works. You didn't say any of this before, and that made it look like a mistake or a weird wattage spike. Whatever.

You seem to have a rockin' sprint though. Hell, I'm jealous. With that sprint and a 300ish W threshold, you should be killing all the crits you enter.
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Old 08-20-09, 09:50 AM   #1355
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Well, you posted your power profile and if you don't have a high power up to atleast 10-15 secs, then it looks like there was an error. That's just how it works. You didn't say any of this before, and that made it look like a mistake or a weird wattage spike. Whatever.

You seem to have a rockin' sprint though. Hell, I'm jealous. With that sprint and a 300ish W threshold, you should be killing all the crits you enter.
I confess, it was an error I was careful with my words to never mention it being accurate, or anything about threshold, etc. It wound up being a series of ~135w data points, a single 1917w, then back to ~135w points. I was in the middle of deleting it at the time of the post, but thought it would be funny to show.

I don't have a lot of data and only got my PM for my last few races. Since it's been the middle/end of my season (real racing ended Aug 1st), I've had no need to do any formal testing. I'm already burning out.

I did, however, just enter into a study a week ago that is doing 5x5min intervals, a 20min test, and then a VO2 max test. Last week, the 5x5min intervals had a 346w best (the rest were high 330's), the 20min was 303w (FTP is actually 290w, so this was a really accurate test), my best 1s is 1390w, my best 5sec is 1300w.



Like I said, I don't have a lot of data -- the MMP curve is choppy. I should go out and test my 1min again, as the last time I tested it, it was using another person's PT. I don't have the data from that, but right now couldn't care less about going through that much pain on my own, this late in the season. It was 620w, which would make my MMP even more choppy.
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Old 08-21-09, 02:38 PM   #1356
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Question:
How does one use 3-minute FTP test data to estimate FTP? Is it the mean power of the 3 minute time period or something else?
Thanks!!
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Old 08-21-09, 02:49 PM   #1357
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Well, it's technically a 3-minute CP test (critical power vs. FTP). Look for where the floor of the graph is. It should steadily decrease until it appears to level off. It seems that the final 15-30s is about right. If you have any significant rise in the final minute, then you didn't go hard enough before that and the test is no good.
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Old 08-21-09, 04:55 PM   #1358
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Well, it's technically a 3-minute CP test (critical power vs. FTP). Look for where the floor of the graph is. It should steadily decrease until it appears to level off. It seems that the final 15-30s is about right. If you have any significant rise in the final minute, then you didn't go hard enough before that and the test is no good.
Thanks for that...if I was able to post the attachment/image properly, you will see that it is not of the pattern you indicate :-)

I was out on an easyish ride where I wanted to have a few hard efforts of some type...after going down a road that looked like it would take me about 3 minutes to head back up (but only a slight incline for the most part), I thought of the 3 minute test, not knowing exactly what it entailed...so, I pushed it hard until the road dropped...

When I was done, I thought I might have gone only 2'45"...so, 9'46"later, when I reached another stretch that I knew went for a bit and was reasonably flat to slightly uphill, I went for it again...

Turns out that I went for 3'19" on the first effort and 3'17" on the second effort...I was "done" after the second one!!

Well, it was still cool to see the data...316 average power for first duration and then 313 for the second run...sounds like one needs to floor it with everything the entire way to get the pattern you describe...
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Old 08-21-09, 09:17 PM   #1359
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Cool. Good interval efforts, but you're looking for something like this (I had a corner near the start, still got all the AWC out before the end):

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Old 08-21-09, 10:37 PM   #1360
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Thanks for that...looks like I really gotta pop it very hard at the start, then keep pushing hard, and then just keep pushing with whatever it is that I have after that (ugh!!)...my mindgame for this might be thinking about a 15-20s almost-sprint at the start, then thinking about a 30-40s intensity effort after that, and then settling into a push with whatever I have left and just driving and driving and driving...

Another question: is it ok to stand at various points of the duration, or, is it best to remain seated the entire way? In the second (lower graph) effort, it can be seen near the end -- see the 4 jumps up -- where I noticed that watts were dropping, and I then stood (and then sat, except for the last one) to try and keep the wattage up as high as I could.
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Old 08-21-09, 10:54 PM   #1361
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Regarding the pacing, yeah, you've almost got it. Really, for any given second, treat it like a 1-second all-out sprint for the Roubaix cobble trophy. Seriously, every single pedal stroke as hard as possible (with allowances for mind wandering and incoherence). The first 10 seconds at 90% are probably fine, but when you "settle in," you should really be going maximal continuously.

Standing: fine at the beginning when your arms aren't making up for power deficiency in your legs. After the first minute, stay in the saddle. A quick jump at 1:30 isn't going to hurt anything, but you don't want your arms figuring into the last minute, and you don't want to accidentally give your legs half a pedal stroke of recovery. If you get bogged down, shift instead.

There's this strange zen thing that comes shortly after 2:00, where you're accepting what's going on. Kind of like Mel Gibson in the last scene of Braveheart, where they're ripping out his guts. "Well, I guess this is really happening now." It just stops really hurting as you watch your power level off near threshold. If you think about it, riding at threshold for a minute isn't really painful at all. Since you have no remaining AWC, what's left to cause pain? It's a strange sensation to be going absolutely 100% and not feeling it.
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Old 08-22-09, 04:41 AM   #1362
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just curious how did you plot that dashed line in WKO?
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Old 08-22-09, 10:48 AM   #1363
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Regarding the pacing, yeah, you've almost got it. Really, for any given second, treat it like a 1-second all-out sprint for the Roubaix cobble trophy. Seriously, every single pedal stroke as hard as possible (with allowances for mind wandering and incoherence). The first 10 seconds at 90% are probably fine, but when you "settle in," you should really be going maximal continuously.

Standing: fine at the beginning when your arms aren't making up for power deficiency in your legs. After the first minute, stay in the saddle. A quick jump at 1:30 isn't going to hurt anything, but you don't want your arms figuring into the last minute, and you don't want to accidentally give your legs half a pedal stroke of recovery. If you get bogged down, shift instead.


There's this strange zen thing that comes shortly after 2:00, where you're accepting what's going on. Kind of like Mel Gibson in the last scene of Braveheart, where they're ripping out his guts. "Well, I guess this is really happening now." It just stops really hurting as you watch your power level off near threshold. If you think about it, riding at threshold for a minute isn't really painful at all. Since you have no remaining AWC, what's left to cause pain? It's a strange sensation to be going absolutely 100% and not feeling it.
Thanks again...I like the Zen notion and analogy...it can be hard to disassociate the mind from the body and keep everything moving business as usual...but, when I've done it in the past, I've found it very satisfying after the run (back when I was a runner)...I was not sure what AWC stood for, so, I did a Google search and found this fun little tidbit (my eldest son -- the one who knows more about TX racing players than me -- and I love to play this sport in our "gameroom," aka dining room that we have been allowed to take over, smile)
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Old 08-22-09, 02:03 PM   #1364
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just curious how did you plot that dashed line in WKO?
Just double-click the scale you want the mark for. So, if you see your average speed for an interval is 25mph, you can double click the MPH scale and enter a line for 25. The dashed line will color-match the scale you've chosen.

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Thanks again...I like the Zen notion and analogy...it can be hard to disassociate the mind from the body and keep everything moving business as usual...but, when I've done it in the past, I've found it very satisfying after the run (back when I was a runner)...I was not sure what AWC stood for, so, I did a Google search and found this fun little tidbit (my eldest son -- the one who knows more about TX racing players than me -- and I love to play this sport in our "gameroom," aka dining room that we have been allowed to take over, smile)
well, I guess that you can't utilize your cycling data to help you figure out where you stand in table tennis (according to the paper).
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Old 08-26-09, 09:23 AM   #1365
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Hi, long time reader, first time poster in this thread. I would like to give a huge thanks to Psimet for his help and awesome pricing on the two powertaps I bought from him.

The background. This is my first year of racing, thus far I have been using HR based training since the beginning of the year. I would say I have done fairly well for a first timer especially only riding since May 2008.

I will confess that most of my races are triathlons and I know most cyclist dont want anything to do with them but nonetheless I do dabble in the TT frequently.

So far this season I have competed in 5 triathlons, three sprints and two olympic distances. The bike is my strongest event having placed in the top 15 overall in almost all of the races for my bike split. I have done three time trials, a 12 mile flat (29:51), 40k very rolling (63:07), 24K rolling (38:19).

I have two more triathlons scheduled for this season, 9/13 and 10/4 both oly distance.

So here is my question: My wheels will be ready for me to pick up with my new PT hubs on Friday. I am currently reading Training and Racing with a Power Meter and plan on purchasing the WKO+ software in the next week or so.

One of the first things in the book tell you to do an FTP test. I cant do that this weekend but next weekend there is a 12 mile TT about two hours away. Would it be a bad idea to do an FTP test 8 days before another race? Also would a 12 mile TT be a good substitue to an hour long FTP test?

Or should I just play around with the PT until my tri on 9/13? Or play around with for the rest of the season and then focus an FTP test somewhere near my house when I am fully rested?

Sorry for the long winded post but I figured more info is better than everyone just guesing what I have done this season and what I plan to do.

thanks

-jeremy
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Old 08-26-09, 09:55 AM   #1366
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I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to do your next two tri's, as you have probably done with your previous ones, with your HR monitor. Use your powertap just to gather data during these events. This will give you an idea where you are. Play around with the PT, begin to gather a base of data, do your FTP tests later.

As for your exact questions, doing an FTP test 8 days before another race should give you plenty of time to recover. A 12 mile TT is a good estimate with the appropriate mulitplier (.95? anybody?). It should be less than .95 if it is taken from a tri.
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Old 08-27-09, 06:42 PM   #1367
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Ok, made another go at the 3 minute CP/FTP (?) test...Hoping that this pattern is good ...see attachment...

The first 20s were 778 802 785 793 787 798 773 723 697 650 490 540 472 523 513 509 505 503 506 509

The 30s and 15s mean values were dropping pretty steadily...their values from 2' 10" mark to the end (3' 25" -- I do not look at the clock, I'm focused on a sign and steep incline as the end marker) are as follows:

Time..........30s..........15s
2' 10" .....293.6 .....288.1
2' 20" .....289.1 .....292.0
2' 30" .....290.9 .....293.3
2' 40" .....288.6 .....285.6
2' 50" .....291.5 .....290.5
(I suspect that between 2' 50" and 3' 00" is about when a sign/incline, which marked the end in my mind, came into view)
3' 00" .....293.6 .....298.7
3' 09" .....297.1 .....297.0
3' 20" .....291.6 .....280.2
3' 25" .....288.4 .....283.0
Ahhhhh, done....

ap for entire 3' 25" is 354.5

So, would these data suggest that a reasonable estimate of my ftp, based on this method, of course, is 290 +/- 5 ?

Thanks!!
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Old 08-27-09, 06:56 PM   #1368
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1st ride with muh new PT.

5 sec= 16.5 w/kg

So do I need to get WKO or what?
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Old 08-28-09, 07:31 AM   #1369
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Yeah, that looks like the right graph shape. Nice work, I know it wasn't easy

Given that you went beyond 3', and how there wasn't a sustainable jump in the last minute, I'd say 290 is a solid estimate. How does that compare to your training zones and performances of late?

-Mike

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Ok, made another go at the 3 minute CP/FTP (?) test...Hoping that this pattern is good ...see attachment...

The first 20s were 778 802 785 793 787 798 773 723 697 650 490 540 472 523 513 509 505 503 506 509

The 30s and 15s mean values were dropping pretty steadily...their values from 2' 10" mark to the end (3' 25" -- I do not look at the clock, I'm focused on a sign and steep incline as the end marker) are as follows:

Time..........30s..........15s
2' 10" .....293.6 .....288.1
2' 20" .....289.1 .....292.0
2' 30" .....290.9 .....293.3
2' 40" .....288.6 .....285.6
2' 50" .....291.5 .....290.5
(I suspect that between 2' 50" and 3' 00" is about when a sign/incline, which marked the end in my mind, came into view)
3' 00" .....293.6 .....298.7
3' 09" .....297.1 .....297.0
3' 20" .....291.6 .....280.2
3' 25" .....288.4 .....283.0
Ahhhhh, done....

ap for entire 3' 25" is 354.5

So, would these data suggest that a reasonable estimate of my ftp, based on this method, of course, is 290 +/- 5 ?

Thanks!!
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Old 08-28-09, 08:37 AM   #1370
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Yeah, that looks like the right graph shape. Nice work, I know it wasn't easy

Given that you went beyond 3', and how there wasn't a sustainable jump in the last minute, I'd say 290 is a solid estimate. How does that compare to your training zones and performances of late?

-Mike
Thanks, much appreciated, hallelujah that I won't be doing that again soon (hmm, maybe in a race...nah, nevermind)...I don't have any training zones with respect to power -- happy to receive guidance on how to do it (but, I can search online and I suspect I could find something, so, if it is complicated to post guidance, no problemo)...

I believe that my performance has been increasing overall since recording power data, starting in middle of June or so...and, in the past 2 weeks, after coming out of a 3+ week sort-of-slump (I believe that cadence was a key issue), I am feeling -- relative for me -- more like a beast...I'm not beating pro-ams, 1s, 2s, and strong 3s, but, I'm sticking with them in crits and getting mid-teens finishes in sprints...

Without a doubt, the power data have been very useful/helpful...I'm not too good at reviewing and using it during a race...I still go by feel and instincts there (but, I would seriously consider using the data during a race if I knew how to do it)...however, being able to review race and workout data, analyze it and make judgments with respect to actions I could consider in future workouts and races has been terrific...we'll never know with certainty, but, I firmly believe that having the objective, recorded data has enabled me to see/perceive things that I would not have otherwise...

for example, at present, I am an incredibly different -- more dominating -- rider at lower cadences than at higher cadences...the other way to look at this, if you subscribe to the only-high-cadence-can-be-good club, is that I need to work harder at tolerating higher cadences...

I feel like I need to add, I'm not only a customer, I own the company Seriously, I can see that having a monitor which reports speed or cadence is not enough...having the power data is very useful to me...
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Old 08-28-09, 10:58 AM   #1371
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I am sure this has been asked, but I am strugling going through 55 pages of power questions; I couldn't find anything.

I am very new with all this.

Is it normal to not make as much power on the trainer as on the road?

First off I am 71kg/ 6'1" if that matters. I struggle to hold over 300watts for 20+ mins or so on the trainer, but I can hold 300+ on the road with no problem (well not, no problem, but you know what I mean) upwards of 45MIN+ Is it a mental thing or do trainers actually affect how power is transfered?

Sorry for the dumb question.
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Old 08-28-09, 11:12 AM   #1372
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Is it normal to not make as much power on the trainer as on the road?
Yep, completely normal.

Hey, are you racing Sisquoc tomorrow?
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Old 08-28-09, 11:23 AM   #1373
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Yep, completely normal.

Hey, are you racing Sisquoc tomorrow?

AWESOME. That makes me feel better. I was kind of down on my numbers. My 5min and FTP are not too bad then.

Man, I would have loved to do that race, but Santa Maria is a hell of a drive and I am not mentally fit right now. I think I am going to do the Charleston Hill Climb though if my knee surgery does not come first.

I hope all is well with you and your family! Hope to see you at a race soon!!!!
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Old 08-28-09, 02:54 PM   #1374
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i just made monthly mean maximal charts in wko+ for may, june, july, august and i'm getting sightly worse instead of better; should i take a month off or something? could i be limiting my performance by looking at the meter? could it be the heat?
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Old 08-28-09, 03:15 PM   #1375
Matt2.8NJ
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Jersey
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I just purchased a PowerTap from wheelbuilder.com ... this has been an interesting thread, looking forward to participating and learning.

I had a Pro+ Powertap built into a Flashpoint 40 rim. The wife will also use it for her Triathlon training.
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