Bethel Cat 4 crash on 3-22
03-23-09, 09:58 AM
#1
Dough Mestique
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Bethel Cat 4 crash on 3-22
Any word on the injured riders? It looked pretty bad.
That race was mayhem. I had a 24 mph average.
BL
That race was mayhem. I had a 24 mph average.
BL
03-23-09, 10:22 AM
#3
Dough Mestique
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Not one bit technical. It's mostly a meandering oval with a single 90 degree bend just past the start/finish. Theres a 300 meter hill at about 8% grade with the start/finish at the top, a brief descent into a headwind on the backside and then back up the hill.
24 mph average on that course didn't feel slow to me. We were doing about 19 up the hill and 26 on the rest of it. It's a very fun race and CDR runs a tight ship.
The crash was during the final sprint. I didn't see how many went down, but at least five or six is my guess. A couple of riders stayed down and they brought in the ambulance.
BL
24 mph average on that course didn't feel slow to me. We were doing about 19 up the hill and 26 on the rest of it. It's a very fun race and CDR runs a tight ship.
The crash was during the final sprint. I didn't see how many went down, but at least five or six is my guess. A couple of riders stayed down and they brought in the ambulance.
BL
03-23-09, 10:36 AM
#4
Senior Member
I have yet to find out how the one guy is doing.
I think someone moved left to go with the initial jump by the overall leader and guys started falling behind him (overlapped wheels maybe?). I was 50 meters away and watching and I still don't know what happened. Front of the field went down, maybe 4th or 5th rider (it was 2-3 wide behind two guys jumping). No one fessed up to feeling a big rub on their rear wheel.
One guy (white outfit) sort of slid/toppled over. The guy just behind (red outfit) slammed into him and went upside down. Red outfit is the guy that went to the hospital. He had a couple facial cuts, blood, etc. Police called ambulance as a precaution.
Two other guys went down in sympathy.
The initial guy has some massive damage to his bike - broken frame and both wheels, and I don't know about the rest of it. He was talking and joking and stuff afterwards though.
Course is not technical at all which is probably why there are crashes there sometimes. Sort of a big kidney bean slash weird pool shape. Map is here, sort of:
https://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=78643
Look at the end point. that is Turn 1, at the top of a hill that sprints at maybe 30-32 mph max. Course goes clockwise around Francis J Clarke Circle. Hill starts halfway around the second right bend, climbs up through the left bend, finishes there (and that's where the line is).
Usually the crashes occur when:
- guys go inside on the right bends and there is no room.
- guys move outside from the inside (because they're boxed in) and take out guys to their outside.
- on the back straight when things slow down suddenly
I think the Cat 4 crash was the second instance. Also there were reports of a lot of contact just prior to the sprint, most of it inadvertent (i.e. shaky riders) and possibly 2 riders who were initiating contact on purpose (elbows, shoving, etc). Nothing concrete resulted (penalties etc) except that I'll have someone video taping at the bottom of the hill (and I did for most of the rest of the day). The officials took some numbers for future reference but that's all they could do at that point.
cdr
I think someone moved left to go with the initial jump by the overall leader and guys started falling behind him (overlapped wheels maybe?). I was 50 meters away and watching and I still don't know what happened. Front of the field went down, maybe 4th or 5th rider (it was 2-3 wide behind two guys jumping). No one fessed up to feeling a big rub on their rear wheel.
One guy (white outfit) sort of slid/toppled over. The guy just behind (red outfit) slammed into him and went upside down. Red outfit is the guy that went to the hospital. He had a couple facial cuts, blood, etc. Police called ambulance as a precaution.
Two other guys went down in sympathy.
The initial guy has some massive damage to his bike - broken frame and both wheels, and I don't know about the rest of it. He was talking and joking and stuff afterwards though.
Course is not technical at all which is probably why there are crashes there sometimes. Sort of a big kidney bean slash weird pool shape. Map is here, sort of:
https://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=78643
Look at the end point. that is Turn 1, at the top of a hill that sprints at maybe 30-32 mph max. Course goes clockwise around Francis J Clarke Circle. Hill starts halfway around the second right bend, climbs up through the left bend, finishes there (and that's where the line is).
Usually the crashes occur when:
- guys go inside on the right bends and there is no room.
- guys move outside from the inside (because they're boxed in) and take out guys to their outside.
- on the back straight when things slow down suddenly
I think the Cat 4 crash was the second instance. Also there were reports of a lot of contact just prior to the sprint, most of it inadvertent (i.e. shaky riders) and possibly 2 riders who were initiating contact on purpose (elbows, shoving, etc). Nothing concrete resulted (penalties etc) except that I'll have someone video taping at the bottom of the hill (and I did for most of the rest of the day). The officials took some numbers for future reference but that's all they could do at that point.
cdr
03-23-09, 10:54 AM
#5
aka mattio
It happened right in front of me and to my right, and I'm not sure what happened. All of a sudden three guys were leaning on each other and there was that delirious sound of bikes crashing.
Sympathy to those hurt.
Two guys directly in front of me careened left to avoid the crash and wound up leaning on each other pretty enthusiastically and I'm surprised that they didn't go down.
I was disappointed. I chose not to sprint through the crash though apparently I was in much better position than I thought I was.
It was a tough race. The front of the pack had a very hard time getting organized and I found the pace to be surprisingly slow at times - a lot lot lot lot of yoyoing. I made a serious bridge effort early on but nobody came with me - alas. I wouldn't mind being dragged into a placing by Guido Wollman...
FWIW, I noticed some shaky riding but did not notice intentional contact, nor the sorts of race-vibe that can accompany intentional contact (obnoxiously vocal riders, etc). But that's not to say it wasn't there.
Sympathy to those hurt.
Two guys directly in front of me careened left to avoid the crash and wound up leaning on each other pretty enthusiastically and I'm surprised that they didn't go down.
I was disappointed. I chose not to sprint through the crash though apparently I was in much better position than I thought I was.
It was a tough race. The front of the pack had a very hard time getting organized and I found the pace to be surprisingly slow at times - a lot lot lot lot of yoyoing. I made a serious bridge effort early on but nobody came with me - alas. I wouldn't mind being dragged into a placing by Guido Wollman...
FWIW, I noticed some shaky riding but did not notice intentional contact, nor the sorts of race-vibe that can accompany intentional contact (obnoxiously vocal riders, etc). But that's not to say it wasn't there.
Last edited by queerpunk; 03-23-09 at 10:58 AM.
03-23-09, 12:13 PM
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I hope everyone from the crash is okay...
Mattio, come race in the 3/4 race next sunday!
The back stretch gets sketchy if there's a lot of wind. The change of pace really forces you to pay attention. If I want to take a drink or stretch or whatever, I get out of the pack to do it so I don't get inattentive.
As a side note: Does anyone know where all bethel pics are posted other than truesport? Thanks.
Mattio, come race in the 3/4 race next sunday!
The back stretch gets sketchy if there's a lot of wind. The change of pace really forces you to pay attention. If I want to take a drink or stretch or whatever, I get out of the pack to do it so I don't get inattentive.
As a side note: Does anyone know where all bethel pics are posted other than truesport? Thanks.
Last edited by ridethecliche; 03-23-09 at 12:32 PM.
03-23-09, 12:37 PM
#7
Dough Mestique
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The only real contact I saw was on the final lap (maybe second to last lap?) on the windy stretch when one rider swerved left directly into someone on his left. I thought it was curtains, but both riders kept it up. Other than that, all I saw were a couple of tidy "here I am" touches between other riders.
Generally, I thought the bike handling was quite a bit cleaner this week than it was two weeks ago.
BL
Generally, I thought the bike handling was quite a bit cleaner this week than it was two weeks ago.
BL
03-23-09, 12:50 PM
#8
aka mattio
^Yup. I was right behind that. Somebody barked at me but I had to move left in response to their movement! I chalked it up to squirreling rather than to aggressiveness. Final lap on the backstretch, maybe with 600m to go...
rtc, I won't be able to make it up. I've got some very late evening plans the night before. Unfortunately I think Bethel is done for me - Fawn Grove, my own NYC underground urban 'cross race, and then Battenkill are on my schedule for April.
rtc, I won't be able to make it up. I've got some very late evening plans the night before. Unfortunately I think Bethel is done for me - Fawn Grove, my own NYC underground urban 'cross race, and then Battenkill are on my schedule for April.
03-23-09, 02:35 PM
#9
Senior Member
Good to know that the handling was better, i.e. no real intentional contact.
re: pics I request any/all links to pics for the pictures page, and I usually get a few.
cdr
re: pics I request any/all links to pics for the pictures page, and I usually get a few.
cdr
03-24-09, 09:10 PM
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Botto: yes it was slow, especially when you consider that a two man break gapped us by 50 seconds after going OTF on lap 2 of 22. They stayed away for 15 miles. The whole crash thing happened in the sprint for 3rd. Maybe if more chasing had been done, everyone would have had less energy to hop all over the place. I think the entire field expected other teams to do the chasing (like, maybe the team that lost the yellow jersey to one of the guys in the break?). It was the most embarrassed I've ever felt racing a bicycle. Good learning experience though.
03-25-09, 07:36 AM
#11
Senior Member
I was back and to the left of the crash. Wheel crossing caused it. I'm not sure whose wheels touched, but there were 2-3 riders from the same team that led out the 3rd place finisher. They may have been slowing or migrating left after their leadout, and maybe a touch of exuberance by the guy behind them, perhaps thinking he was cdr or something and squeezing through a hole he was too big to fit through. Either way, it was inexperience, and squirrelly riding.
Botto: yes it was slow, especially when you consider that a two man break gapped us by 50 seconds after going OTF on lap 2 of 22. They stayed away for 15 miles. The whole crash thing happened in the sprint for 3rd. Maybe if more chasing had been done, everyone would have had less energy to hop all over the place. I think the entire field expected other teams to do the chasing (like, maybe the team that lost the yellow jersey to one of the guys in the break?). It was the most embarrassed I've ever felt racing a bicycle. Good learning experience though.
Botto: yes it was slow, especially when you consider that a two man break gapped us by 50 seconds after going OTF on lap 2 of 22. They stayed away for 15 miles. The whole crash thing happened in the sprint for 3rd. Maybe if more chasing had been done, everyone would have had less energy to hop all over the place. I think the entire field expected other teams to do the chasing (like, maybe the team that lost the yellow jersey to one of the guys in the break?). It was the most embarrassed I've ever felt racing a bicycle. Good learning experience though.
Watching the race, and some vid clips after it, I think that the chasing team (yellow) did two things wrong. First, they went hard up the hill. But that doesn't help anyone, it just puts people on the ropes. Second, when they were at the front, they were going maybe 25 mph, so in a race-sense they were just dwaddling.
Chasing in amateur races like Bethel requires a violent and painful effort. I've tried to sit on bridging groups in faster races and man, they totally haul butt. 35+ mph easily, on tailwind or slight downhill sections up to the low-mid 40s. My one impressive SRM reading from a P123 race had me putting in an effort just as strong as the final sprint of the 3-4s and I was only maintaining position in the field (!). 1200 watts to maintain position, holy smolies. And that was on the second lap or something (I dropped out after that because I exploded).
Doodling along at 25 mph doesn't do anything except wear guys out. Like tyrade said, the teams chasing needed to chase. Instead they just surged on the hill and sat back for the rest of the lap.
cdr
