hairnet

I don't want any sort of arguments and I only recently joined them so I don't know any "history", so I'll just ask this one question. Who the hell cares that one of our guys was using toe clips and sneakers?

At Ontario the first sign of this talk, for me, was from a guy coming up to us and basically saying, "not to be a jackass, but you guys suck." This hasn't given me a very positive impression of the racers out there. I've barely started with this game and I'm already feeling pushed out.

umd

Out of all that has been said on this thread, all that you got out of it was the comment about the sneakers? Not that they they are increadibly sketchy and a pain to ride and race near?

My firsthand experience with them is very limited, fortunately none of them are in the 3s so I'll just have to take everyone's word for it.

hairnet

I just didn't want to start anything and the sneakers seem harmless enough. Pointing out the shoes right away does sort of show how some people are willing to give the boot to someone new. Plus there isn't much here except the OP calling us Team Handjob.

Must of us are 5s, we're out to learn but instead are being rejected, cool.

vladav

Nobody cares too much about sneakers. I didn't even notice them until reviewing pics of the races later. Seriously, if everyone on the team wore spike heels and toeclips AND RODE SAFELY, it'd be a hoot. The mention here was just to add texture for the wider audience of BF.

My concern is over what seems to be consistently unsafe riding, and the possability of a team who by all appearances isn't open to constructive criticism.

umd

Exactly.

Hairnet, you seem to be missing the point.

vladav

Whether 4s or 5s it seems to be a team trait. Most everyone is sketchy at first, that's a given. Please, Please find some experienced racers that you trust and try to work out some mentoring. Or ride at the back (even if you're physically stronger than that) and study how the pack moves.

I see your team taking the most effecient line through a corner - that's fine for gocart racing. But learn how to peek over your shoulder before a turn to see how many riders are between yourself and the curb and maintain that distance from the curb. At our lowly level it's not only the sporting thing to do but it's not as ineffecient as you would think.

As for "Handj0b" - the respect will come when the team can complete a race without being yelled at. You guys were at the front near the end of races which shows strength, but isn't that hollow if it's only because people 'quit playing'?

Hairnet: thanks for being the (or at least 'a') team voice these comments are at the team not you personally (i think?)

kudude

sounds like he fits in with the new team just fine.

Here's the strategy, it's used by many self-destructive personality types across many spectra:
Piss everyone off, then get a chip on your shoulder because "everyone is mean to you". Self-fulfilling and gives you an "enemy" to blame everything on.

Sweet.

hairnet

Ok, I'm not trying to sound butthurt or anything and I don't view anyone here as an enemy. Comments like "team handjob" were offensive because these are very nice guys. Again, I'm new so I don't know what kind of talk has gone on between teams, but it seems odd to me that they would shrug off criticism from more experienced racers.

But don't make me the voice. I'm here on my own and I won't speak for anyone.

umd

He was trying to avoid saying the team's name... he could have chosen a less inflamatory name, but the idea was clearly to not call them out directly.

kuf

Seeing how many people knew immediately what team was being referred to is very telling.

That guy did not express himself very well, and dumped on you, which was wrong. He wanted the dangerous behavior to stop, and didn't know what to do except lash out at the first guy on your team he saw.

It has nothing to do with being new and not allowing you in the club. The OP is wondering how to get it across to the guys on your team that they are being dangerous, not just posting here to bag on your team.

Yes, that was an offensive term that you didn't deserve. That deserves an apology and a

People who are strong before coming to riding or racing can succeed without having mastered pack skills. They are strong not after putting untold miles on the bike in groups gaining experience but coming from other sports or riding solo. They often think that because they are fast and are getting results that they don't need to listen to anybody that thinks they know better. It sounds like that may be what is happening here. I hope they can learn to ride safely before there are broken collarbones & frames.

hairnet

Just talk to us

ijunes

I've tried inviting them out to montrose to get a hand on their pack skills, at least the yelling would be a barrage of hostility but their primary reason for not showing up was 'sketchiness' of the pack, which i have never had a problem with. they claim nobody gave them a talking to at the simi ride, but that's probably because nobody cared.

and i can speak for every 4, when i say everyone has a mishap at least in 1 race, where they dont hold their lines through corners, or get shaky and sketchy it happens. and everyone seems to yell about it. i think the yelling comes from being unable to hear people within earshot at high speeds, and is in no way to show real anger towards you. but at some point, you gotta step back and really reflect on yourself when you're being constantly approached at every race for the same ol bad habits

Racer Ex 

It doesn't to me. Now many 4/5's come here and start running their keyboard like they a Lance Freaking Armstrong?

Kai Winters

Complaints are usually exaggerated...
Cat5 "team" is an odd concept...
People not knowing how to race and doing what veteran racers consider "stupid" is quite normal in a low cat race...why is there a "veteran" racer in a low cat race in the first place???
Usually, at least when I started racing 20+ years ago, skill and physical abilities were similar...newb rider's handling/pack skills were pretty even with physical skills and back then the better riders, in a crit, would go full tilt for the first 5 laps to "burn off" the newbs. Then the race would become "normal". I had seen a change in that over the years with the advent of "tri" folk, etc. getting involved. They are often very strong riders but lacking in handling/pack skills and trying to burn them off is/was not as easy as it had been or at least seemed so imo.

I suggest having a conversation with the chief ref, USAC Regional person, etc. and explain the situation...but you better have facts, not just "they suck, etc."...you will quickly find yourself talking to yourself. My best friend was NE Regional Rep back in the old USCF days and this was a more common occurrence than you may think and usually successfully handled by the rep with a conversation.

Worst case if they are in a race you are in...get the main riders to just go hard and try to drop them...if you guys are as skilled as you hope you are you know how to get a rider off a wheel, out of a break, out of a group...if not you are not as skilled as you think...

Good luck and keep us informed.

Zmony

After reading this thread I was on TT lookout at CBR#3 today. They didn't have any members in the 30+ 4/5 race though.

But, I heard there was a nasty crash in the cat 5 race where a rider (not sure which team) was unconscious and taken out in an ambulance.

ijunes

no?

hitsthepoles_ow

This is a reply about the club 'in general,' from a member in a leadership capacity. I am responding to clarify some facts and share perspective. I am not a regular forum user, but will read/reply here briefly as professional responsibilities are pressing and come first. Spent a lot of time collecting thoughts here....

-Club will take constructive criticism, but is less likely to accept it when coupled with ad hominem attacks, or threats a from people at a similar riding level. Unfortunately what many [not necessarily people on this forum] remark as their 'constructive criticism' oftentimes comes across as
a combination of the above--at the wrong time, in the wrong place, with a group of people wearing the same different kit behind their back after the heat of a sprint. Less vocal club members on both sides of the isle then look slightly embarrassed at one another and try to de-escalate their teammates. This is a competitive sport like others--this is how (unfortunately) disputes seems to go.

-A lot of reporting of one team to another has been underhanded--emails to the SCNCA after any supposed incident, with anecdotal remarks, half-truths and outright fabrication rather than formal complaints or discussion through appropriate channels at appropriate times. Many on this forum remark 'shoot I haven't raced with them--but I'll look out!' That is fine, but my concerns are that exaggerations have set a conversational tone that are starting to echo.

-One recurring individual we've had met before, with unfortunate favor that I'd like to improve, seemed satisfied to tell club before a race that he 'heard about emails' mentioned his effort to 'have us [whole club] not race that day....' Rather than noting specific actions of a specific rider. We have been in correspondence with governing body already about this kind of behavior. We'd rather not play he said/she said, prefer to work to fix problems and actively solicit 3rd party advice

-Club does receive mentorship, albeit in limited capacity

-Club does not 'recruit mainly from party rides'

-forum member ijunes, claiming that he 'rode with us' for about a year, has been riding seriously for the same duration of time and failed to declare to the forum that he a relatively young, former co-leadership club-mate who left on less than ideal terms, rather than an unaffiliated party.

-Club rider origins/affiliated rides are mentioned on this forum, by former teammate, in a partial account. What is not mentioned in this thread that 'wolfpack hustle' regulars that lead the front break group include at least two state champion champion jerseys (one for cat 3 and another for cat 1), and are regularly visible charging the front of Simi and, by former teammates account, Montrose. Club watches those riders each weekend at USAC races to cheer on. Their athleticism and quality of attitude are on another level altogether--a real measure many attempt to follow.

-Club opted not to go to Montrose because it is further away as a commute for some, has less climbing, less mileage and because some club members wanted to bike to the ride for extra mileage; club also wanted to 'all do the same ride.' This is not a diss at Montrose as it is a ride that speaks for itself, but is one among few highly prominent rides.

-Club instructed at prominent rides to 'stay lower profile' but try to take wind, climb hard and learn from others.

-The single individual with toe cages now has some very nice clipless pedals and shoes--either way toe-clips are not against usac rules, albeit seem to be a bold statement--particularly when the rider is athletic and ahead of many people by virtue of clean effort.

-The trainer-mistake was genuine and apologized for. There are about three recurring types of trainers everyone uses and vague instructions form a teammate 'parked next to ____ (car/truck)' in a quick text message can be ambiguous. Individual we had mishap with was kind at race... sorry the best foot wasn't put forward. Club tries to treat the cat 5's with some dignity--each tries to be 'pre-race crew' for the other--figured it is just a nice thing to do to reduce anxieties.

-Club is aware of reputation growing negative, but uncertain what to do other than place out of the 4's, spend more time on rollers, and focus on technique where practices are available. Not much money for a coach, but a consideration as severity mounts. I'm not sure what one forum member was suggesting about disabling someone's bike, but tampering with someone's equipment to render it unreliable or useless will be reported to governing body and law enforcement.

...with respect to crash familiarity, I had my jersey practically torn off and helmet cracked in 3 when 1/4 of the peleton went down during the sprint of last Ontario race last season. Others, former teammates and the like, who have raced collegiately have had the 'benefit' of crashes as well. Each of us has the same former training partner that ended up rear-ended and on the hood of a hit/run drunk driver's car before being thrown back to pavement at fairly high speeds. Many in club are familiar with injuries--there is no benefit other than a sense of vigilance re: prevention, as many on this forum agree.

...the individual with the suit and a cast at some races. That was a dedicated and promising cat 5 that, despite being very busy completing his Ph.d in chem at UCLA, showed up to every race to support the club even though he couldn't race due to a cycling commute-related injury. A bit of an appeal to emotion here, but making fun of a guy like that? I'll let the forum decide how appropriate.
...with respect to me seemingly saying 'club is not to blame'--club is highly visible in terms of kit design and at least half the time we are reacting, as anyone would, to a nearby person's maneuver. Club has a 'squirrely rider'--and not without mistakes. I re-iterate, however, that it is easier to shout at a visible kit than a number of unattached, a person with a fairly regular kit design, or person with 10 other kits in the field.
...Before I had a kit, I had a grudge against a much larger club for a season when one of their guys damn near took out a row on many a turn in the 4/5's--I then went on to infer a lot about their other members every time I saw something I didn't like. I heard everyone rant about said team in the parking lot. I heard one guy rant about them who I plainly saw bumping into people and weaving as much as our 'worst guy' throughout the race.

I disagree with the tone of a number of the statements here but genuinely heed the concern--no one likes extra danger in a field of 100 at 30+ mph--no one likes a purported group of suicide cases--and no one should remain silent when, in good faith, they see something that seems willfully dangerous. I will not retaliate to any threat, but will not tolerate threats. I will find the appropriate channel to report real threats of curbing, intentional wheel crossing/swipes, or attempts to escalate provocation to a physical level. I personally appreciate the later remarks of users vladv, kuf and kai. Trainable outcomes are highly appreciated.

Club remains on good terms with many of our former teammates now with PAA or Ritte. I've had the pleasure of meeting some very kind people, in many different kits, at these races and those who very appropriately offered bona-fide suggestions here and the sometime congratulations when due. Club is aware of contents of this message board, but still looks forward to being on better terms with other teams and offering healthy competition.

umd

Crash716

It's a long read...

waterrockets 

Forgot one:

-Club now sponsored by Huffy as it best describes our demeanor.

jwible

Don't forget "-club has member in law school who likes to write extremely verbose prose with grammatical errors and big words"

merlinextraligh

From an outsider's perspective, it seems to me the Club has a bunch of young, enthusiastic, but clueless, members.

A club that offers an opportunity for new people to participate and learn is great.

However, a club that has a ton of new people, and little or no experience is a recipe for a problem, particularly if those new people are perceived as arrogant and unwilling to try and learn.

It would seem to try and rectify this situation you need to get some veteran leadership. If you could find a respected Master's racer in your area willing to work with, it would help both with your new riders learning, and with your credibility/perception problems.

I bet you could find someone like that willing to serve as a Coach of the team for a few hundred a month, which is not much spread out over what sounds to be a fairly large team.

Crash716

ok..i'll comment on a few things here.

1) The trainer thing i believe was innocent and an accident, perhaps you didn't read on to my responses about it. I wasn't so upset that they used my trainer, i was more upset that they decided to move into a spot that was obviously being used by my teammates without asking, and then took their sweet time getting out of the spot. The guy apologized, that was the end of it, I made mistakes too as a Cat 5, but I didn't take a trainer or a spot that I didn't set up or pick out, that's my only beef.

2) If I ever hear of or see someone, be it your team or any other mess with a bike before a race i'll handle that on the spot, that's crap and I am on your side with this one.

3) The guy in the suit, no matter how unfortunate the crash was looked comical to me. He was running around like a chicken with his head cut off and really seemed to be a bit foolish. He may be smart but he didn't look the part, or at least act it by yelling and stressing out a bunch of Cat 5's getting ready for their first race. It should still be fun, and they all looked super stressed out. Besides, this is a public forum, i reserve the right to judge without any knowledge of someone however wrong that may be, just like you reserve the right to disagree and call me whatever for that reason.

One thing you have to realize here on the forums is that people exaggerate things, your team, perhaps full of new inexperienced riders is no different than my Cat 5's, we just have a huge contingency of masters to help (hopefully) raise them right.

umd

This is the key. When I did stupid stuff starting out, I had plenty of people that I knew telling me so, it sounds like they don't have that.

Crash716

DID? really?