HMF

I did my longest ride ever today. 67 miles, mostly solo after the pack dropped me. I can't tell you how bad my legs were hurting towards the end.

When I get home I immediately drink a weight gainer shake with 80g carbs and 52g protein and about 500 calories (I weight 142lbs and it's a struggle to keep that from falling) Then I take a shower and about an hour later I make a sandwich or something for lunch. I'll finish off with pasta tonight.

They're sore now but I often find that they won't be that sore tomorrow, at least not after I start using them on my ride or whatever. If I sit idle they seem to continue being sore.

Anyway, my basic question is: This is improvement right? That was a hell of an endurance ride for where I'm at right now, and as far as I know I'm taking care of myself, food-wise. If they're not sore the next day, does that mean I could've done more?

brianappleby

Your legs don't need to be sore tomorrow in order for you to improve. You had a long/hard ride and that's great. If you're serious about improving, there's a lot you can do in terms of training. For now tho, keep it up, you're doing great.

The fun thing about starting out with cycling (the first year or so) is that as long as you ride your bike, you'll be improving.

For recovery, less protein, more carbs. More like 100g/30g, but more or less, you're good.

carpediemracing 

Soreness indicates muscular damage/overload. When the soreness goes away, your body has repaired that damage, and it usually overcompensates by making the muscles just a bit bigger.

If you go lift a lot of weights, you'll be sore. You'll recover, gaining some muscle mass. You'll get stronger. You'll need to lift a little more weight to get the same effect. At some point you start to plateau, due to genetics (and more mundane things like you're sleepy because you stayed up late last night, etc).

Cycling is no different. You'll push yourself harder for whatever reason (time trial for a while on your own, work super hard to stay in the group to avoid the "off the back" time trial, etc), you'll overload your muscles, they recover, and you get stronger.

If you have a good pedal stroke, good form, you use a whole lot of little muscles, ones that you don't normally use. Once they develop you'll start to get that "souplesse", the pedaling suppleness that comes with oodles of miles. It's how you can tell an experienced rider from an inexperienced one - the experienced one has developed all those obscure muscles and has a much more complete pedal stroke.

I think (I can't prove it) that doing long rides really helps recruit these obscure muscles. You quickly fatigue the common muscles, so as you push through the difficulties of a longer/harder ride than you are used to, your legs end up recruiting those obscure muscles. They develop, become strong enough to be useful all the time, and now you have a more supple pedal stroke.

I know that I learned different techniques in my early riding years on long rides. One time, I think I was 15 or 16, I felt really good powering while seated, on climbs and even flats. But as the hours dragged by on a ride with an "experienced" Junior, I got fatigued. My training partner kept pushing it, and I started digging really deep to avoid getting dropped. My back really started bothering me. On some random hill I stood, but I pedaled just a bit differently because I was already so tired. I was shocked when I could ride really hard in big gears, and as a bonus my back felt much better when I stood like that. So I stood like that on a bunch of the hills and ended up dropping my training partner on some of them. By the end of the ride I was the one waiting for him.

When you work out, you break down your body. You actually get stronger when you recover, i.e. when you're resting. This leads to the reason why I sometimes say I'm doing "double secret training" - it means I'm not training at all. I'm resting.

btw I wish I had to work on avoiding weight loss. I'm already thinking about the 3 or so months of aggressive dieting I want to do this winter to lose 10 or 15 lbs.

cdr

echappist

watch out for the masters version of Paolo Bettini

PS. OP, prolonged soreness (say 4 days) without doing any hard workouts indicates overreaching. If you don't lay off of training by then for half a week or so, you will be looking at an one-way express trip to overtraining land.

bostongarden

Dmalvarado - you've got good comments there.

(I'll add that some who would also like to drop 10-15 pounds might like a "Fall 2010 weight loss challenge" thread . Although, it should not be posted until after Labor Day.)

carpediemracing 

OT - bg, I'm heading out shortly for Fall River. If you're going I'll be doing the 3s.

bostongarden

(CDR -- It would have been to do that race with you. Today, I was at Wells Ave. I'll check out NE-BRA for other events coming up.)

euphoria

Do you have a list of those muscles? I searched far and wide (relative for me since I am lazy) for a paper I did awhile back and had to settle on the basic major ones outlined in Bicycle Science.

bostongarden

Stimulating comment!!

Even if there is no such list of muscles -- and cdr may have been speaking quasi-metaphorically -- I agree with the spirit of it.

Don't we sometimes talk about digging down deep and finding something extra when we need it -- and hopefully there is something there when we go "looking" for it!!! Or, we talk about finding "another" gear -- are there any gears in the human body that would correspond to this search?. Let's agree that whatever muscles that develop or "teaching" to the body that takes place, the type of riding that cdr mentions can be good/beneficial.

In addition/alternatively, science does not account for or explain all phenomena -- nor is it likely to ever do so. It could be that these muscles -- or the effect(s) of them -- have not been professionally codified or formally described by "bicycle scientists." Perhaps this is an opportunity for someone driving for tenure, promotion or an award/prize

carpediemracing 

No list of muscles. My brother accuses me of figuring out something without being able to prove it. For example, someone questioned my remark that a tire is stationary on the ground at some point every revolution, i.e. it's traveling 0 mph. It has to be true, else you'd be skidding everywhere. A very erudite person agreed with my theory but felt it necessary to prove it. He spent an evening proving this to himself, and came into work and announced that, for the record, my theory was true. He then proceeded to blab all sorts of mathematical stuff that I didn't understand.

So, in a similar vein, I know that there are a lot of muscles that cyclists use that don't normally get used. They adapt, get bigger, and presto, you have a legs that look like they belong to a cyclist. They may be similar to other athletes (speed skater, rower) but they're definitely a bit different from, say, runners.

The old stories of a coach grabbing a calf or a quad and immediately passing judgment on a potential recruit holds some truth. If you've dealt with a lot of cyclists (and, in those days, the coach would massage the legs), I bet a coach could guess with some statistically significant accuracy how a rider feels or goes based on how the legs feel (literally).

So, any potential PhDs, MDs, or even Masters students... here's your chance.

euphoria

As far as 'digging deep' or the 'human spirit' goes, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_governor

I wasn't doubting that smaller synergists may come into play (and they could be codified with repeated EMG tests) but that I have yet to come across such apparently privileged information. I have a hunch that they serve more as stabilizers rather than meaningful force producers, however.

Feel free to disregard my post since I am an undergrad, but what exactly would a feel test accomplish besides figuring out if the muscles are knotted and tight? Would this coach kick Robert Gesink out of his program?

ridethecliche

I think it has more to do with neuromuscular control than 'use the never used muscles'. There are some muscles such as those used in ankle flexion/shins that are used more than usual when riding. The rest of it is just muscle memory.

carpediemracing 

It's not like the coaches doing the squeezing had any kind of a degree either. The myth is that if you run a team for, say, 20-30 years, and you have to massage the legs of all the riders for 100-150 races a year, then you'll have a really good idea of what a leg feels like at a given time of the day. So before a ride, after a ride, after a race, etc.

Having said that, an ex- of mine (we're still good friends) is a massage therapist. At some point after we split up she gave me a massage. She worked on my calves for all of a minute and asked me pointedly if I'd been running. I answered no, but she insisted I'd been running. She started naming various latin sounding names that apparently indicated I run.

After about 10 minutes I realized that I had been running, just not in sneakers. I worked in NYC and there was a slew of trains at a certain time (late rush hour). If I missed them I'd have to wait around for a while. So, work being work, I'd frantically dash out of the office and basically run the couple miles to the train. I even got rubber soled shoes so I could run better.

So, yes, I'd been running without realizing it. And yes, an experienced person picked it out right away.

The leg squeeze thing would be an inside joke too. Someone would ask to join the team. We'd know something about him (just hearsay etc) and one of the team leaders (not me - I was like 15-16 when this whole thing started going away) would squeeze his calf.

"Hm. You sprint okay. You can't climb too well though. But you're good on the flats."

It was interesting to see the bewildered look on the guy's face.

cdr

MDcatV

guys, it's only august. these "i know from experience" vs. "prove it with peer reviewed research" arguments are for the base vs. threshold season, you know, november through march.

aicabsolut

Based on all the seemingly odd places that my massage therapist finds knots and hot spots after a strenuous few weeks or months of high mileage training, long road race efforts, etc., I agree with CDR. Yeah, the hamstrings and major calf muscles are tight. The quads may be knotted. Glutes start to feel like they're in a constant state of "TT butt." The real relief comes when you dig into the iliopsoas muscles and the piriformis in the upper region. Then the ITB and short and long groin muscles start pulling the knee out of whack. In the lower leg, the peroneals start to burn, and anterior tibialis is tight all the way down to the extensor tendons in the foot. Despite using good arch support in my shoes, I need to use a tennis ball under my arches regularly to avoid foot cramps. My massage therapist has even found some hot spots in the tibialis posterior, which must be related to the arch soreness issue. I think some of the stuff in the feet starts with fatigue of the hamstrings and compression at the bursa by the sit bones. The lateral calf stuff happens when the ITB and minor and medial glutes are fatigued and tight.

So long as I can keep the major muscles loose, then I don't usually have problems in the smaller muscles and tendons involved in the pedal stroke, except maybe the peroneals, but those on me have had some issues from back before I picked up cycling due to some asymmetry in my hips. When I feel sore after a ride, it's going to be noticeable in the large muscles. Walk up some stairs, and the quads scream. However, it is clear to me that once the larger muscles began to be fatigued and overworked and have trouble recovering, then the smaller, more obscure muscles take a beating. So, it must happen on a smaller scale too, such as on one long training ride.

NickDavid

The answer to the title question is yes.

Lose the weight gainer shake. Seriously. If you really want to race, you want to be light. If you're strong at 142, then you'll be strong as hell at 130. Besides, you're not going to gain anything from a 52g protein shake.

umd

bostongarden

Is this the new umd?

umd

Funny is funny.

rumrunn6

... hmmm ... I think sore legs means you need a rest; massage; soak in hot tub with epsom salt; recovery drink and maybe a potassium/magnesium supplement; and rehydration.

HMF

Here's the problem. I don't have a nutritionist and I don't monitor my calorie intake per day. Nor do I own a powermeter to more accurately guess how many calories I've burned. In the past, when I rode with no weight gainer shake, I think I dropped to 138 in about 2 weeks. That kind of freaked me out, and I looked emaciated in the mirror.

How will I know if I'm fueling correctly? Do I just make sure I'm eating around 600 grams of carbs per day and/or listen to my appetite? I find my appetite disappears after a long ride, so couldn't that do more harm than good? Nutrition suggestions anyone?

PS - I rode again the day after and now they're a little stiff, but not "sore" per se. They feel used, that's for sure.

mike868y

Eat a balanced diet and eat if you are hungry.

Cavemen and indians who didn't always have food to eat didn't have nutritionists or powermeters. The body has an inane sense to detect hunger.

Read the nutrition section of the training bible or paleo for athletes for a good description of what to eat.

echappist

report back when you get to call "the chicken" fat

MDcatV

that's the look i'm going for in 2011. this ponchy robbie mcewen look i have going isnt getting it done.

echappist

nah, you aren't channeling all of your robbie mcewen, this is how you get it done in a race