Racer Tech Thread
02-20-15, 11:00 AM
#1051
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thanks. again i wasn't questioning you per se, but your picture brought up the topic for me. you just posted a photo of a tire (which looked a bit gnarly), but i'm not there to see it in persona dn to really know what was up. i just wanted to segue into another topic.
what do you think is wrong with vittoria tubulars? they wear faster than some other tires (like race tires) but anything that flats a vittoria flats pretty much any other tire, other than something that none of us would want to race.
what do you think is wrong with vittoria tubulars? they wear faster than some other tires (like race tires) but anything that flats a vittoria flats pretty much any other tire, other than something that none of us would want to race.
There's nothing wrong with the vittoria's, they just probably aren't the best tire for most of our races. On a fast, clean track, yeah. On thorny, bumpy, generally-terrible farm roads, I think they're more likely to flat out than my booted tire was, that's all.
02-20-15, 11:06 AM
#1052
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02-20-15, 12:10 PM
#1053
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Since we are on glue 
I have ridden mostly tubulars all my cycling life for all riding - since late 70s and my kid does about 8K/year on them too. I used them on all four of my tandems including the Duet tandem stage race. I have rolled them - long ago and contributed to a crash (went sideways to avoid one and rolled it - was using Fast Tack). I have melted glue (tandem) and not crashed.
The limited testing I read about measuring rolling resistance between track glue and road glue was measuring just one brand of each - I recall and I don't recall the brand - and I don't know how well they glued them.
Soyo is the only track glue I can find while there are several brands of road glue I've used and they all are noticeably different in how they dry. Some stay sticky with a high viscosity, some are rubbery with various durometer's.
In the old days I got used to the Vittoria red stuff and the Clement. Now I tend to like the popular Mastik as it seems to dry pretty hard and I believe the energy is not lost like it might be with the squishy types.
So what I do...
Goal - Stay well within safety parameters and minimize all movement of the tire and rim with as little weight as possible yet allowing the tire to be removed without damage.
I like to age tires on clean rims (I have some wood ones I use) in dark closets about a year. Usually I can't/don't - but I like to. However a pre-mount a day or so before to stretch the tire on the clean rim before I mount it is almost always done. Some say this should not be done as it stretches the tire out and does not grab the rim. I do it as I use glue to grab the rim. Usually - if I remember I put electrical tape around the valve to minimize noise from movement and verify my valve extenders are correct. If using Stans etc. now is the time to add it.
Tools/stuff
I have a can a lacquer thinner, and a can of Naphtha (sold in some counties and not others. Can't buy it in OC) and a bag of rags. I have a tube glue/tire although I tend to use 3/4 tube / tire.
Cleaning: The Naphtha is for cleaning off old dry glue and is done a few days before mounting. Its oily and not good for fresh glue. It also does NOT dissolve most stickers. You often do not have to clean rims especially if the prior glue job was the same year and its not too caked on. But I like to and I am a weight weenie.
Gluing time: I go over the rim and base tape with a clean rag and Lacquer thinner trying to avoid decals. I screw this up all the time.
I apply a thin layer of glue to one side of the rim - say to right of spoke holes about 1/4 of the way around the rim. I use my index figure to smooth it on getting 100%. I avoid gluing/putting glue over the spoke holes or in the center. Then I do the next 1/4 until 360 is covered on one half of the tire trough. Then I do the other side. Then I put a little more 360 around the valve hole. I allow it to get somewhat dry. I know some will let dry 24 hours and apply again. In the 80s a guy I glued for liked a different brand on the 2nd coat. While I agree those methods create a tighter bond, more often than not the base tape would stay bonded to the rim when I removed the tire. The weak link was the base tape/tire bond. I don't believe a bond that peals off base tape is required. Also part of the reason I don't glue the center of the tape / rim as that does less for handling/safety and more for making the tire hard to get off.
I inflate the tire to about 20PSI - or until it slightly rolls to one side. I apply a thin coat of glue to one side of the base tape on the edges - 1/4 way around and smooth in with my figure. Then the next 1/4 and then repeat on the other side of the base tape. I put ample glue around the valve 360. So I have a rime with no glue in the center (over spoke holes) and tire with no glue in the center and lots of glue around the valve.
I immediately mount the tire. This takes some practice, but how I do it is how I've seen everyone do it - no need to describe.
Then very quickly I inflate to about 50PSI and try to verify a good seat. The "better" hand made tires often do not seat as well as the machine ones. Sometimes you have to give up quality and performance if you want the very best.
I do one of two things next.
I tie my tires using a nylon rope and make sure each turn creates a small impression in the tire. (see picture)
OR
I put one hand on each side of the axel and roll the tire with maybe 50# of my body weight on the center, then each side. I'm OK with a 300meter ride on the bike going 10mph here too.
The rope method is a real pain but works. The roll method is good enough. The point is I want good contact between the tire and rim everywhere I have glue (not in the center) and don't want gaps.
Then I inflate hard. In the rope method the inflating will cause the tire to be pushed hard onto the glue. Then I clean up with lacquer thinner quite often forgetting that most paint and decals dissolve when hit with a solvent filled rag. Maybe by this time its the fumes that have impaired my judgment.
I have ridden mostly tubulars all my cycling life for all riding - since late 70s and my kid does about 8K/year on them too. I used them on all four of my tandems including the Duet tandem stage race. I have rolled them - long ago and contributed to a crash (went sideways to avoid one and rolled it - was using Fast Tack). I have melted glue (tandem) and not crashed.
The limited testing I read about measuring rolling resistance between track glue and road glue was measuring just one brand of each - I recall and I don't recall the brand - and I don't know how well they glued them.
Soyo is the only track glue I can find while there are several brands of road glue I've used and they all are noticeably different in how they dry. Some stay sticky with a high viscosity, some are rubbery with various durometer's.
In the old days I got used to the Vittoria red stuff and the Clement. Now I tend to like the popular Mastik as it seems to dry pretty hard and I believe the energy is not lost like it might be with the squishy types.
So what I do...
Goal - Stay well within safety parameters and minimize all movement of the tire and rim with as little weight as possible yet allowing the tire to be removed without damage.
I like to age tires on clean rims (I have some wood ones I use) in dark closets about a year. Usually I can't/don't - but I like to. However a pre-mount a day or so before to stretch the tire on the clean rim before I mount it is almost always done. Some say this should not be done as it stretches the tire out and does not grab the rim. I do it as I use glue to grab the rim. Usually - if I remember I put electrical tape around the valve to minimize noise from movement and verify my valve extenders are correct. If using Stans etc. now is the time to add it.
Tools/stuff
I have a can a lacquer thinner, and a can of Naphtha (sold in some counties and not others. Can't buy it in OC) and a bag of rags. I have a tube glue/tire although I tend to use 3/4 tube / tire.
Cleaning: The Naphtha is for cleaning off old dry glue and is done a few days before mounting. Its oily and not good for fresh glue. It also does NOT dissolve most stickers. You often do not have to clean rims especially if the prior glue job was the same year and its not too caked on. But I like to and I am a weight weenie.
Gluing time: I go over the rim and base tape with a clean rag and Lacquer thinner trying to avoid decals. I screw this up all the time.
I apply a thin layer of glue to one side of the rim - say to right of spoke holes about 1/4 of the way around the rim. I use my index figure to smooth it on getting 100%. I avoid gluing/putting glue over the spoke holes or in the center. Then I do the next 1/4 until 360 is covered on one half of the tire trough. Then I do the other side. Then I put a little more 360 around the valve hole. I allow it to get somewhat dry. I know some will let dry 24 hours and apply again. In the 80s a guy I glued for liked a different brand on the 2nd coat. While I agree those methods create a tighter bond, more often than not the base tape would stay bonded to the rim when I removed the tire. The weak link was the base tape/tire bond. I don't believe a bond that peals off base tape is required. Also part of the reason I don't glue the center of the tape / rim as that does less for handling/safety and more for making the tire hard to get off.
I inflate the tire to about 20PSI - or until it slightly rolls to one side. I apply a thin coat of glue to one side of the base tape on the edges - 1/4 way around and smooth in with my figure. Then the next 1/4 and then repeat on the other side of the base tape. I put ample glue around the valve 360. So I have a rime with no glue in the center (over spoke holes) and tire with no glue in the center and lots of glue around the valve.
I immediately mount the tire. This takes some practice, but how I do it is how I've seen everyone do it - no need to describe.
Then very quickly I inflate to about 50PSI and try to verify a good seat. The "better" hand made tires often do not seat as well as the machine ones. Sometimes you have to give up quality and performance if you want the very best.
I do one of two things next.
I tie my tires using a nylon rope and make sure each turn creates a small impression in the tire. (see picture)
OR
I put one hand on each side of the axel and roll the tire with maybe 50# of my body weight on the center, then each side. I'm OK with a 300meter ride on the bike going 10mph here too.
The rope method is a real pain but works. The roll method is good enough. The point is I want good contact between the tire and rim everywhere I have glue (not in the center) and don't want gaps.
Then I inflate hard. In the rope method the inflating will cause the tire to be pushed hard onto the glue. Then I clean up with lacquer thinner quite often forgetting that most paint and decals dissolve when hit with a solvent filled rag. Maybe by this time its the fumes that have impaired my judgment.
Last edited by Doge; 02-20-15 at 12:29 PM.
02-20-15, 12:22 PM
#1054
Version 7.0
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Rad.
02-20-15, 03:12 PM
#1055
Senior Member
I'm sort of a part timer but thanks.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
02-20-15, 04:51 PM
#1056
Senior Member
I scrolled up from the bottom and thought this was a New England outdoor "yeah I'm still training outside" thing.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
02-20-15, 04:56 PM
#1058
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Or maybe 50 Shades of Doge
02-20-15, 04:56 PM
#1059
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Since we are on glue
I have ridden mostly tubulars all my cycling life for all riding - since late 70s and my kid does about 8K/year on them too. I used them on all four of my tandems including the Duet tandem stage race. I have rolled them - long ago and contributed to a crash (went sideways to avoid one and rolled it - was using Fast Tack). I have melted glue (tandem) and not crashed.
The limited testing I read about measuring rolling resistance between track glue and road glue was measuring just one brand of each - I recall and I don't recall the brand - and I don't know how well they glued them.
Soyo is the only track glue I can find while there are several brands of road glue I've used and they all are noticeably different in how they dry. Some stay sticky with a high viscosity, some are rubbery with various durometer's.
In the old days I got used to the Vittoria red stuff and the Clement. Now I tend to like the popular Mastik as it seems to dry pretty hard and I believe the energy is not lost like it might be with the squishy types.
So what I do...
Goal - Stay well within safety parameters and minimize all movement of the tire and rim with as little weight as possible yet allowing the tire to be removed without damage.
I like to age tires on clean rims (I have some wood ones I use) in dark closets about a year. Usually I can't/don't - but I like to. However a pre-mount a day or so before to stretch the tire on the clean rim before I mount it is almost always done. Some say this should not be done as it stretches the tire out and does not grab the rim. I do it as I use glue to grab the rim. Usually - if I remember I put electrical tape around the valve to minimize noise from movement and verify my valve extenders are correct. If using Stans etc. now is the time to add it.
Tools/stuff
I have a can a lacquer thinner, and a can of Naphtha (sold in some counties and not others. Can't buy it in OC) and a bag of rags. I have a tube glue/tire although I tend to use 3/4 tube / tire.
Cleaning: The Naphtha is for cleaning off old dry glue and is done a few days before mounting. Its oily and not good for fresh glue. It also does NOT dissolve most stickers. You often do not have to clean rims especially if the prior glue job was the same year and its not too caked on. But I like to and I am a weight weenie.
Gluing time: I go over the rim and base tape with a clean rag and Lacquer thinner trying to avoid decals. I screw this up all the time.
I apply a thin layer of glue to one side of the rim - say to right of spoke holes about 1/4 of the way around the rim. I use my index figure to smooth it on getting 100%. I avoid gluing/putting glue over the spoke holes or in the center. Then I do the next 1/4 until 360 is covered on one half of the tire trough. Then I do the other side. Then I put a little more 360 around the valve hole. I allow it to get somewhat dry. I know some will let dry 24 hours and apply again. In the 80s a guy I glued for liked a different brand on the 2nd coat. While I agree those methods create a tighter bond, more often than not the base tape would stay bonded to the rim when I removed the tire. The weak link was the base tape/tire bond. I don't believe a bond that peals off base tape is required. Also part of the reason I don't glue the center of the tape / rim as that does less for handling/safety and more for making the tire hard to get off.
I inflate the tire to about 20PSI - or until it slightly rolls to one side. I apply a thin coat of glue to one side of the base tape on the edges - 1/4 way around and smooth in with my figure. Then the next 1/4 and then repeat on the other side of the base tape. I put ample glue around the valve 360. So I have a rime with no glue in the center (over spoke holes) and tire with no glue in the center and lots of glue around the valve.
I immediately mount the tire. This takes some practice, but how I do it is how I've seen everyone do it - no need to describe.
Then very quickly I inflate to about 50PSI and try to verify a good seat. The "better" hand made tires often do not seat as well as the machine ones. Sometimes you have to give up quality and performance if you want the very best.
I do one of two things next.
I tie my tires using a nylon rope and make sure each turn creates a small impression in the tire. (see picture)
OR
I put one hand on each side of the axel and roll the tire with maybe 50# of my body weight on the center, then each side. I'm OK with a 300meter ride on the bike going 10mph here too.
The rope method is a real pain but works. The roll method is good enough. The point is I want good contact between the tire and rim everywhere I have glue (not in the center) and don't want gaps.
Then I inflate hard. In the rope method the inflating will cause the tire to be pushed hard onto the glue. Then I clean up with lacquer thinner quite often forgetting that most paint and decals dissolve when hit with a solvent filled rag. Maybe by this time its the fumes that have impaired my judgment.
I have ridden mostly tubulars all my cycling life for all riding - since late 70s and my kid does about 8K/year on them too. I used them on all four of my tandems including the Duet tandem stage race. I have rolled them - long ago and contributed to a crash (went sideways to avoid one and rolled it - was using Fast Tack). I have melted glue (tandem) and not crashed.
The limited testing I read about measuring rolling resistance between track glue and road glue was measuring just one brand of each - I recall and I don't recall the brand - and I don't know how well they glued them.
Soyo is the only track glue I can find while there are several brands of road glue I've used and they all are noticeably different in how they dry. Some stay sticky with a high viscosity, some are rubbery with various durometer's.
In the old days I got used to the Vittoria red stuff and the Clement. Now I tend to like the popular Mastik as it seems to dry pretty hard and I believe the energy is not lost like it might be with the squishy types.
So what I do...
Goal - Stay well within safety parameters and minimize all movement of the tire and rim with as little weight as possible yet allowing the tire to be removed without damage.
I like to age tires on clean rims (I have some wood ones I use) in dark closets about a year. Usually I can't/don't - but I like to. However a pre-mount a day or so before to stretch the tire on the clean rim before I mount it is almost always done. Some say this should not be done as it stretches the tire out and does not grab the rim. I do it as I use glue to grab the rim. Usually - if I remember I put electrical tape around the valve to minimize noise from movement and verify my valve extenders are correct. If using Stans etc. now is the time to add it.
Tools/stuff
I have a can a lacquer thinner, and a can of Naphtha (sold in some counties and not others. Can't buy it in OC) and a bag of rags. I have a tube glue/tire although I tend to use 3/4 tube / tire.
Cleaning: The Naphtha is for cleaning off old dry glue and is done a few days before mounting. Its oily and not good for fresh glue. It also does NOT dissolve most stickers. You often do not have to clean rims especially if the prior glue job was the same year and its not too caked on. But I like to and I am a weight weenie.
Gluing time: I go over the rim and base tape with a clean rag and Lacquer thinner trying to avoid decals. I screw this up all the time.
I apply a thin layer of glue to one side of the rim - say to right of spoke holes about 1/4 of the way around the rim. I use my index figure to smooth it on getting 100%. I avoid gluing/putting glue over the spoke holes or in the center. Then I do the next 1/4 until 360 is covered on one half of the tire trough. Then I do the other side. Then I put a little more 360 around the valve hole. I allow it to get somewhat dry. I know some will let dry 24 hours and apply again. In the 80s a guy I glued for liked a different brand on the 2nd coat. While I agree those methods create a tighter bond, more often than not the base tape would stay bonded to the rim when I removed the tire. The weak link was the base tape/tire bond. I don't believe a bond that peals off base tape is required. Also part of the reason I don't glue the center of the tape / rim as that does less for handling/safety and more for making the tire hard to get off.
I inflate the tire to about 20PSI - or until it slightly rolls to one side. I apply a thin coat of glue to one side of the base tape on the edges - 1/4 way around and smooth in with my figure. Then the next 1/4 and then repeat on the other side of the base tape. I put ample glue around the valve 360. So I have a rime with no glue in the center (over spoke holes) and tire with no glue in the center and lots of glue around the valve.
I immediately mount the tire. This takes some practice, but how I do it is how I've seen everyone do it - no need to describe.
Then very quickly I inflate to about 50PSI and try to verify a good seat. The "better" hand made tires often do not seat as well as the machine ones. Sometimes you have to give up quality and performance if you want the very best.
I do one of two things next.
I tie my tires using a nylon rope and make sure each turn creates a small impression in the tire. (see picture)
OR
I put one hand on each side of the axel and roll the tire with maybe 50# of my body weight on the center, then each side. I'm OK with a 300meter ride on the bike going 10mph here too.
The rope method is a real pain but works. The roll method is good enough. The point is I want good contact between the tire and rim everywhere I have glue (not in the center) and don't want gaps.
Then I inflate hard. In the rope method the inflating will cause the tire to be pushed hard onto the glue. Then I clean up with lacquer thinner quite often forgetting that most paint and decals dissolve when hit with a solvent filled rag. Maybe by this time its the fumes that have impaired my judgment.
02-20-15, 05:31 PM
#1060
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Lots of races are won on clinchers. Some even booted. More are won on tubulars. I just don't think that's why they're won.
02-25-15, 05:37 PM
#1061
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I like zipp vuka sprint bars.
What's a similar bar in shape/etc... but not $350.
anyone?
What's a similar bar in shape/etc... but not $350.
anyone?
02-25-15, 06:10 PM
#1062
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I have not good idea of price. Many are kind to use and we borrow/swap get deals that do not resemble retail.
So...
The Enve aero thingy's are very nice because they are wider at the drops than the hoods. I saw this bend in the 70s and 80s but its great it returned as this allows wider leverage for sprinting (not you I know) and no interference (knocking you wrists on the top part) and keeps you aero on the hoods.
So...
The Enve aero thingy's are very nice because they are wider at the drops than the hoods. I saw this bend in the 70s and 80s but its great it returned as this allows wider leverage for sprinting (not you I know) and no interference (knocking you wrists on the top part) and keeps you aero on the hoods.
02-25-15, 06:23 PM
#1064
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02-25-15, 06:32 PM
#1066
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Bontrager has the aluminum aero bars for 99 or so. Almost grabbed one off eBay for $50 but slept in and missed it...
02-25-15, 06:57 PM
#1068
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02-25-15, 08:42 PM
#1070
fuggitivo solitario
how would one be able to tell? Got mine from theproscloset on ebay, and they seem like a reputable dealer
02-25-15, 08:44 PM
#1071
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A friend bought some fake 3T bars on ebay knowing they were fake, because they were so cheap. The price is usually the giveaway.
02-25-15, 09:15 PM
#1072
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The S-Works Aerofly bar was a better deal when Specialized only charged $220 for them. Just beware the reach is different than the Zipp bars.
02-26-15, 09:48 AM
#1074
Senior Member
So. I might be getting some tubular race wheels. Does anyone have any ideas on which tubular tires are a good balance of speed and price?
02-26-15, 09:54 AM
#1075
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