Doge

So it appears you do not think foreknowledge is required to cheat.

A rider that thinks they are on the correct gears - given to them by neutral support after they ask for a 14T and are told its a 14T later to find its not - is cheating according to you.

I guess you would think an athlete administered a prescription drug that is not on the WADA PED banned list later fails as the drug shows up on the list - is also a cheater.

In both cases I would deem it illegal and expect a DQ, but I do not equate DQ to cheating.

hack

I toss them in a Tupperware bowl on my bike stuff shelf and it's starting to overflow

Doge

A things I saw them do in Belgium.
-League number - so as you say, but only for a race series (like SCNCA, but different in NCNCA). I'm told some collegiate racing is this way in the USA.
-Reusable number. Racer paid 5EUR for the number and when returned they got the money back.
-Podiums in a few min after the finish. No protests, no 15 min. They pay cash very soon after the finish based on what the referee decides.

aaronmcd

Before I read through the whole thread:
Breaking rules is cheating - it isn't "wrong" like stealing is.
Crinkling numbers: how in the hell is that breaking a rule? Chico is the first race I've entered that says don't crinkle numbers. Hell, numbers will get crinkled in a stage race anyway.
Crossing yellow: I don't view that as cheating if it doesn't give you an advantage (bumped, forced over, avoiding crash). Crossing in corners technically does give a miniscule advantage over those who choose to follow the rule and take the corner sharper.

hack

I crinkled my number up once and got some grief from an official (think it was RedKite last year). Haven't done it since, mostly to avoid the hassle of dealing with an official giving me grief than anything.

aaronmcd

Lol. I've come close to accidentally blowing my nose on the floor of my office building. Caught myself just in time.

Doge

These are all rule braking - not cheating IMO.
-crossing over the yellow to maintain your spot in the pack when the side of the road is mostly blocked by a hazard.
-Finding you wore the wrong jersey - at laundry time
-Finding the wheels in/wheels out wheel given to you looked like yours - but wasn't and you used someone else's wheel.
-You find after a UCI race (National Championship) that your wheels were not on the UCI list - but you thought they were.
-You find after the race your bike was too light because of those wheels you were given.

The label "Cheater" should be more powerful than being put on those that make innocent mistakes, or on those that have referees OK their actions.

mattm

most of that sounds like poor planning/organization/not reading the rules, more than anything else.

aaronmcd

My point was that there is nothing inherently wrong with "cheating", or rule breaking. As an anarchist, I think rule breaking can be a very good thing. In sports I try not to break the rules. Not because I don't want to cheat, but because I want to beat people fairly. If I broke a rule accidentally but still won fair and square, regardless, I would have absolutely no problem with it.

gsteinb

This is really one of the silliness conversations. Cheating is probably the wrong word to be trying to mince language around. for any number of the things listed if a rider got DQed I doubt there would be all that much argument. "He got DQed for crinkling his number when the camera guy couldn't read it? Shrug…that kinda sucks…bet he won't do that again." Is it cheating? Of course not. Harping on whether that is cheating or not (a word that implies seeking an advantage) displays the most ponderous lack of understanding of language. Shut up. FFS. It's embarrassing. It's totally different than running different gears, which would give one an advantage, than ones competitors. Unknowingly, and having gotten away with it, I'd hope one would seek to be a bit more cautious going forward as to avoid a situation where they were DQed. If we're going to look for outlier situations (I got the wrong wheel from neutral support) we'll find them. If our slippery slope slides us towards 'well if it's ok then surely it should be ok always' perhaps we're in the wrong endeavor. Take up gambling, prostitution, something. There's rules in this league. Cycling is one of the most notoriously dirty and dysfunctional sports because of some of the attitudes express here and manifested on the highest (and sadly lowest) levels of the sport. I've seen guys take free laps in park races after a crash to help teammates. I've seen guys jump into a race they weren't in to pull back a break for their friends. And we've seen guys leave the sport because they didn't do the "you would too thing" and dope. Not everyone did. Not everyone would. And doping is still a legit and doable way of cheating. YMMV but if you're squinting your eyes at the rules looking for some justification perhaps you're going about things the wrong way.

Wylde06

Everything I know about the rules and how to get away with being a junior and cheating I learned in this thread!

Wesley36

globecanvas

Another example would be a DQ for cursing or yelling at an official, which I'm sure everybody has seen happen. Clearly breaking the rules. Not cheating. Not something to encourage your kid to try to get away with, or to try to nuance away by saying that if the official doesn't hear it, it's OK.



Unless you are an anarchist like aaronmcd, in which case anything goes up to and including pipe bombs.

grolby

Nailed it.

Mincing words and looking for the edge cases are so beyond the point. When I see a shrug and a wink over a clear, if mostly minor, violation like using the wrong gears, it's the attitude that troubles me. For these reasons. I am sorry to have gotten so worked up about it, but gary has laid out pretty clearly what it is that really gets my goat about that. There's a bigger picture here.

Edit: the number pinning stuff was mostly busting balls, though I do strongly encourage people to not deliberately do it. It's forbidden for a reason. That it morphed into the conversation that followed is... interesting.

Doge

I am curious about the OP example. My statements were about that and why I didn't think it was cheating.

To the OP Lance example - the referee.
There was a mishap that could not be avoided. It cost Lance his position in the pack. The rule would be to stay on the course, so get back on the road where he went off and ride back on the road. Lance chose not to follow the rule due to his unfortunate circumstances he found himself in through no fault of his own. Lance gained an advantage crossing the field over following the rule of staying on the course. He broke a rule with intent to gain advantage - with the referees knowing all the facts. The referee's decided it was not cheating.

A non outlier example - Its not much different than the rider being paced back to the pack after a flat with referee knowledge.

gsteinb

none of that is true

globecanvas

As is always explained when that video comes up, the detour was not considered a violation specifically because he did not gain an advantage. He ended up further back than he was before the detour. It turns out running across the grass is slower than riding your bike on the road.

But to be honest, I have really lost the thread here and don't remember what we are arguing about any more. I still have my pitchfork and torch out though, if anyone has any hay that needs putting in the loft, at night.

shovelhd

I can't believe I missed this stupid thread.

Lance did not gain an advantage by cutting the course so he did not break any rules.

Puppy Doge shows up at the line without pins at the corners and I pull him. Period. End of story.
Puppy Doge comes into the pits for a free lap with no sign of crashing. He gets the benefit of the doubt until I find he is making a habit of it because Daddy Doge told him it was ok. Then I recommend that the Chief Referee DQ him.
Puppy Doge comes into the pits a second time. Technically I should pull him. If the course is a meat grinder with crashes every other lap then I let it go. If he makes a habit of it another day, see above.

This is why there are rules, and why officials are given the leeway to interpret them.

Ygduf

rulebook says securely. not pins. do you DQ guys who use those magnets?

shovelhd

I haven't seen those magnets show up out here. I look for the pins. No pins, I have a right to check his number. If he misses the start because of it, too bad.

Yep

I THINK it started out as a thread about LA cutting a course in some race in France. Beyond that, @Doge said that he doesn't think it's cheating if nobody catches you. The rest of us disagreed (over and over again).

For the record, @Doge, you seem like you've got your head screwed on straight which is why I think there's been so much comment on this thread.

Doge

Can you find the post? I don't think that at all and I doubt I posted it, if I did it was a typo. I did post I was wondering if people were really reading what I posted. I'm getting used to that.

Post 10 I said Post 26 you said Then I put forth a somewhat red herring of something (crinkling numbers and not using pins) that is vague if its even a rule breaker and said if it was done in front of the referee its not cheating. That got some activity.

I hold to what I posted in post 10. The Lance example in the OP meets this. Lance chose to break the rules, did so and gained an advantage - but as it was in front of (camera) and allowed by the officials - so not cheating.

My definition of cheating is purposely doing something to gain an advantage that is against the rules AND without the referee who knows all the facts permission. Many disagree.

Doge

Sure he did. If he put his bike back on the course where it left the course (through no fault of his own), he would have been behind by more than he was cutting across the field. That he left the course through no fault of his own is like saying because a rider can't help a flat they should be able to pace on using a car.

What rule requires pins?

Pretty clear many have misread what I said. I do not think I posted once any rider should plan to break any rules. Numbers crinkling is not against rules, nor is fastening a number firmly without pins.

shovelhd

Read the entirety of what I wrote. You certainly have the right to interpret the rules as you see fit. So do I. Guess whose interpretation matters? if the officials in your LA want to see all numbers pinned in mass start races, then just do it. If the officials in your LA don't want numbers crinkeled or folded so that they don't have to waste time trying to figure out your kids placing, then just do it. Respect the officials. Respect the sport.

Grumpy McTrumpy

I remember when our local rep relayed the info that USAC was going to require pins on four corners (a few years ago). The rulebook uses the words "attached securely" which I consider nebulous but...

whatever.

Race enough and you will realize that there is a great deal of autonomy granted to the officials who are there. Just go with it.