Mionske argues Idaho Stop is safer
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Mionske argues Idaho Stop is safer
Legally Speaking with Bob Mionske: The Idaho stop - VeloNews.com
And...YES...I know this is the 185th time we've discussed the Idaho Stop but I think that a well-known bike columnist (and bike lawyer) arguing that the the Idaho Stop is SAFER is a new development.
The Idaho stop, also known as “stop as yield,” allows cyclists approaching a stop sign when the intersection is clear to roll through at a safe speed — just like they would at a yield sign. But is it safe?I argue it is safer. The law allows cyclists to maintain momentum, and from the open-air position of a bike, they can safely determine if there is other traffic and proceed when — and if — it is clear. If there are other road users at the intersection (cyclists, motorists, or pedestrians) when they arrive, they are still required to come to a complete stop and wait their turn.
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If a cyclist slows to near a walking pace speed when performing an Idaho stop, I'm fine with that, but many cyclists, that I have observed locally, barely apply their brakes, and travel past a stop sign at 15 to 20 mph.
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+1 - Another move I've seen lately is the right on red, u turn after about 20 ft, right on green to circumvent a red light.
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If they can see far enough at 15 to 20 mph to be safe, then why would it matter if they choose to cross at that speed?
Even Oregon changed its law to allow cyclists who are crossing in a crosswalk to travel at a safe speed; previously they were required to ride at a walking pace.
Even Oregon changed its law to allow cyclists who are crossing in a crosswalk to travel at a safe speed; previously they were required to ride at a walking pace.
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If they can see far enough at 15 to 20 mph to be safe, then why would it matter if they choose to cross at that speed?
Even Oregon changed its law to allow cyclists who are crossing in a crosswalk to travel at a safe speed; previously they were required to ride at a walking pace.
Even Oregon changed its law to allow cyclists who are crossing in a crosswalk to travel at a safe speed; previously they were required to ride at a walking pace.
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incazzare.
I suspect you're estimating those speeds very high.
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I'm not buying this at all. First of all, why is everyone in such a hurry? If an intersection warrants a stop sign, then just stop.
We already have enough highway deaths every year. Most bike-car crashes occur at intersections and now we're going to make it worse? There are way too many intersections where you can't see far enough left or right to just roll through safely. I'd rather set a hard and fast stopping rule and then allow a little flexibility in enforcement. I mean, if you're rolling through a stop sign at like 3 feet per second, that's usually fine. But when you start programming into people's heads that the priority is to maintain momentum so that they can pad their stats, you're asking for more accidents. The priority should be to come to a complete stop or very, very close to one. The argument that maintaining momentum makes you safer is only true if there's a vehicle coming from a cross street and you're going to race it through the intersection. If that's the case, it's safer to stop and wait.
And where does the "if it's safe" argument end? Why not allow cars the same flexibility? If it's ok for a cyclist to buzz through a stop sign, if they think it's safe, why not allow the same for cars? In fact, why not allow cars to buzz through at 40 mph if they can see left and right clearly and decide there's no danger?
Just because some cyclists may be skilled enough to make split-second judgments at intersections doesn't mean most cyclists can do so safely. The law should be designed for the safety of all road users and not just some of the so-above-average cyclists we have here on BF.
We already have enough highway deaths every year. Most bike-car crashes occur at intersections and now we're going to make it worse? There are way too many intersections where you can't see far enough left or right to just roll through safely. I'd rather set a hard and fast stopping rule and then allow a little flexibility in enforcement. I mean, if you're rolling through a stop sign at like 3 feet per second, that's usually fine. But when you start programming into people's heads that the priority is to maintain momentum so that they can pad their stats, you're asking for more accidents. The priority should be to come to a complete stop or very, very close to one. The argument that maintaining momentum makes you safer is only true if there's a vehicle coming from a cross street and you're going to race it through the intersection. If that's the case, it's safer to stop and wait.
And where does the "if it's safe" argument end? Why not allow cars the same flexibility? If it's ok for a cyclist to buzz through a stop sign, if they think it's safe, why not allow the same for cars? In fact, why not allow cars to buzz through at 40 mph if they can see left and right clearly and decide there's no danger?
Just because some cyclists may be skilled enough to make split-second judgments at intersections doesn't mean most cyclists can do so safely. The law should be designed for the safety of all road users and not just some of the so-above-average cyclists we have here on BF.
Last edited by welshTerrier2; 05-25-15 at 12:47 PM.
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I'm not buying this at all. First of all, why is everyone in such a hurry? If an intersection warrants a stop sign, then just stop.
We already have enough highway deaths every year. Most bike-car crashes occur at intersections and now we're going to make it worse? There are way too many intersections where you can't see far enough left or right to just roll through safely. I'd rather set a hard and fast stopping rule and then allow a little flexibility in enforcement. I mean, if you're rolling through a stop sign at like 3 feet per second, that's usually fine. But when you start programming into people's heads that the priority is to maintain momentum so that they can pad their stats, you're asking for more accidents. The priority should be to come to a complete stop or very, very close to one. The argument that maintaining momentum makes you safer is only true if there's a vehicle coming from a cross street and you're going to race it through the intersection. If that's the case, it's safer to stop and wait.
And where does the "if it's safe" argument end? Why not allow cars the same flexibility? If it's ok for a cyclist to buzz through a stop sign, if they think it's safe, why not allow the same for cars? In fact, why not allow cars to buzz through at 40 mph if they can see left and right clearly and decide there's no danger?
Just because some cyclists may be skilled enough to make split-second judgments at intersections doesn't mean most cyclists can do so safely. The law should be designed for the safety of all road users and not just some of the so-above-average cyclists we have here on BF.
We already have enough highway deaths every year. Most bike-car crashes occur at intersections and now we're going to make it worse? There are way too many intersections where you can't see far enough left or right to just roll through safely. I'd rather set a hard and fast stopping rule and then allow a little flexibility in enforcement. I mean, if you're rolling through a stop sign at like 3 feet per second, that's usually fine. But when you start programming into people's heads that the priority is to maintain momentum so that they can pad their stats, you're asking for more accidents. The priority should be to come to a complete stop or very, very close to one. The argument that maintaining momentum makes you safer is only true if there's a vehicle coming from a cross street and you're going to race it through the intersection. If that's the case, it's safer to stop and wait.
And where does the "if it's safe" argument end? Why not allow cars the same flexibility? If it's ok for a cyclist to buzz through a stop sign, if they think it's safe, why not allow the same for cars? In fact, why not allow cars to buzz through at 40 mph if they can see left and right clearly and decide there's no danger?
Just because some cyclists may be skilled enough to make split-second judgments at intersections doesn't mean most cyclists can do so safely. The law should be designed for the safety of all road users and not just some of the so-above-average cyclists we have here on BF.
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Just because some cyclists may be skilled enough to make split-second judgments at intersections doesn't mean most cyclists can do so safely. The law should be designed for the safety of all road users and not just some of the so-above-average cyclists we have here on BF.
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And where does the "if it's safe" argument end? Why not allow cars the same flexibility? If it's ok for a cyclist to buzz through a stop sign, if they think it's safe, why not allow the same for cars? In fact, why not allow cars to buzz through at 40 mph if they can see left and right clearly and decide there's no danger?
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We already have enough highway deaths every year. Most bike-car crashes occur at intersections and now we're going to make it worse? There are way too many intersections where you can't see far enough left or right to just roll through safely. I'd rather set a hard and fast stopping rule and then allow a little flexibility in enforcement. I mean, if you're rolling through a stop sign at like 3 feet per second, that's usually fine. But when you start programming into people's heads that the priority is to maintain momentum so that they can pad their stats, you're asking for more accidents. The priority should be to come to a complete stop or very, very close to one. The argument that maintaining momentum makes you safer is only true if there's a vehicle coming from a cross street and you're going to race it through the intersection. If that's the case, it's safer to stop and wait.
And where does the "if it's safe" argument end? Why not allow cars the same flexibility? If it's ok for a cyclist to buzz through a stop sign, if they think it's safe, why not allow the same for cars? In fact, why not allow cars to buzz through at 40 mph if they can see left and right clearly and decide there's no danger?
Just because some cyclists may be skilled enough to make split-second judgments at intersections doesn't mean most cyclists can do so safely. The law should be designed for the safety of all road users and not just some of the so-above-average cyclists we have here on BF.
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From Pedal Power (2012):
Bicycle advocates like the BTA have been unsuccessful for over ten years in convincing the legislature that the law should be changed to allow bicyclists to proceed at a “reasonably safe speed” in approaching a crosswalk without losing the right-of-way.
(1) A person commits the offense of unsafe operation of a bicycle on a sidewalk if the person does any of the following:
(d) Operates the bicycle at a speed greater than an ordinary walk when approaching or entering a crosswalk...
(d) Operates the bicycle at a speed greater than an ordinary walk when approaching or entering a crosswalk...
As for blasting through yield signs...you can do that in a car too, as long as you have good line-of-sight. I would think the law requires slowing down at yield signs until you can confirm the way is clear.
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Makes complete sense to me. I wonder why more (all) states have not adopted the I-stop laws. It's certainly not on the grounds of being unsafe.
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Let's classify the 15 mph "stop" as California Stop. Any votes?
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#19
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States certainly jumped on the right turn on red pretty fast for motorist convenience, even though it made it less safe for pedestrians and cyclist. The Idaho Stop does little for motorist convenience, so why bother?
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The safe speed to proceed through a stop depends on the visibility down the crossing road when approaching the corner and the amount of traffic. If you can see a half mile down the crossing road in each direction a half mile before you get to the intersection it's a lot different than being only able so see 50 yards in each direction 50' from the intersection. Just use reasonable judgement to avoid getting hit. Even if you come to a full stop at the sign you still need to judge when it's safe to proceed and can still get hit if you misjudge it.
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And some cops expect cyclist to do more than a complete stop, they expect cyclist to put a foot on the ground to prove a complete stop. Maybe the same should apply to motorist; open the door, put a foot down, then you can proceed.
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Last edited by CB HI; 05-25-15 at 05:53 PM.
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Idaho stops are a "convenience" that reflects the reality that cyclists are not motorists or pedestrians.
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I confess to a situational approach. I usually stop for stop lights, 'track-stand' for stop signs, but today I pretty much blew thru a stop light. Visibility was excellent, and cars were nil.