CliffordK

E-Bikes are a bit odd.

It is safer for them to get them away from vehicular traffic, just like some of my favorite off-street bike paths that cut through town away from the roads are safer than riding on the arterial roads.

But, the E-Bikes can be speedsters on bike paths.

Do they ride in straighter lines than people pedalling? Perhaps there are some safety benefits with more attention to riding and less to pedalling and energy depletion.

welshTerrier2

Of course bike riders on MUPs should be required to ride safely around pedestrians. What bothers me about this, though, is the double standard between cars and bikes.

I rode on a MUP yesterday often with speeds between 15 and 20 mph. When I passed pedestrians traveling in the same direction, I was able to cross the center line and leave a good three to four feet between my bike and the walkers. If I couldn't, I slowed down. My bike with me on it had a combined weight of around 190 pounds and was traveling at 15 mph while the walkers were traveling at, say, 2 mph or a differential of 13 mph. For opposite side walkers, the differential was 17 mph. Would a collision cause severe injuries? Of course it would.

But now consider bikes and cars traveling on the roads. Many states have just a 3-foot passing law if they have one at all. What's the weight of an average car? Let's use 2,000 to 3,000 pounds with many much heavier. Now let's take that same bike and rider traveling at 15 mph with a car traveling at 40 mph or so giving an even greater differential than we calculated on the MUP between bike and pedestrians.

Granted, there are all sorts of other variables to consider on MUPs such as people walking unpredictable dogs, little kids riding tricycles and people walking with headphones on who are oblivious to just about everything.

Nevertheless, if a 3-foot passing distance is considered safe for a 3,000 pound car to pass bicycles on the roads, why can't the same standard be applied to a 200-pound bike and rider unit passing a pedestrian on a MUP? It seems like a double standard to me.

Conditions on MUPs vary widely on different days and on different sections of the MUP. The MUP I rode yesterday is usually incredibly crowded but was almost empty yesterday due to the weather. Even when it's very busy, there are often sections where far fewer pedestrians are present.

Instead of fixing speed limits on MUPs, why not make rules that accomplish the real goal? How about a rule that requires MUP riders to slow down when passing pedestrians and to ensure a minimum passing distance? Perhaps fixed speed limits make sense on some MUPs but, in general, they seem like overkill to me.

dynodonn 

....not only bikes, but pedestrians as well. As I posted in another thread, it is very sad to watch our local pedestrians cross several of our multi lane thoroughfares, at non signaled intersections, but with specially marked crosswalks and highly visible signage. The pedestrians will cross on a run as fast as they can muster, no matter their age or physical ability.

italktocats

if you overtake with a reasonable distance there is no need to slow down, it would even delay your overtaking making it more dangerous
when i overtake people, i do it like i should; shoulder check, move to other lane, hit the gas, overtake, move to right again
its the right thing to do, we are not cars, we dont overtake in the same lane unless youre in a groupride

CliffordK

I mowed down a little old lady with a walker a while ago (almost).

She was walking in front of me on a streetside bike path (no sidewalk?).
A tandem coming towards us. So, I slowed for the tandem to pass, then pulled around her, just as she swung the walker into the middle of my path, apparently turning to watch the tandem pass. I stopped, barely contacting the walker. She didn't fall, & nobody was worse for the wear. But it was a scary moment.

Watch out for those little old ladies with walkers & always expect the unexpected.

But, in general on a MUP, I'll slow down around kids, pets, groups of people, etc.

Passing room is often limited as people walk or ride in the middle of the path.

I try to announce my presence, but no bell (I have an Oi bell on order to arrive... sometime).

And, the "unexpected" is a reason to slow down.

Miele Man

The BIG problems on MUPs and rail-trails where I am is that #1 , people tend to walk side by side and thus there isn't 3 feet left to pass them with and #2 a lot of the paths don't have 3 feet of clearance if the person is in the middle of the path. #3 is that a lot of people walking there dogs do so with the dog on a VERY LONG leash that can reach across the entire width of the path (and then some) and that can happen at any time. I find the MUPs and rail-trails to be more stressful to ride on than a busy road is. especially if I'm wanting to go somewhere fast on the MUP or rail-trail. When I se a lot of cars at the trail head parking lot I just avoid the path and keep on the road.

Too many times on the rail-trail it's sprint, almost stop/trackstand, wait for the person dog to move out of the way, pass very slowly and then sprint and repeat. Great for training as it's like doing intervals but very nerve wracking. And that's not to mention the off leash dogs that dart out of the woods and cross directly in front of you causing you to either brake hard or swerve to avoid hitting them. I had a small dog run out of the woods and dart right in front of my wheel. When I instinctively swerved to miss it I hit the deep loose gravel at the edge of the trail and took a very nasty tumble that scraped and cut me up pretty badly. The dog was off leash even though every road crossing the trail has a sign stating that dogs must be on a leash.

in summer I leave the rail-trails to the alkers and enjoy riding the country roads a lot more as it's a heck of a lot safer there.

Cheers

dynodonn 

I agree, and I just soon stay on the roadway, even though the roadway has it share of stresses, the traffic on it is more predictable and structured than on a trail or MUP.

CliffordK

Around here the flow on the MUPS is reasonably good.
Maybe I'm just getting older, slower, and more patient.
Most of my commuting is around 12 MPH.

We do have a web of sawdust paths that picks up quite a few of the joggers.

A few choke points like bridges where people tend to loiter around, but they're not too bad.

I wonder, however, if there is a tipping point in larger cities where one needs to go beyond the idea of a shared MUP to a bike superhighway like London is trying to create.

bmthom.gis

Most of you are talking about MUPS and greenways. This is singletrack and dirt. From what I can tell, it's a bunch of horse riders complaining about bikes. People who have probably wanted them banned for a long time and finally found a way.

genec

I tend to agree with the idea of a bike superhighway... something that allows cyclists to maintain momentum (few stops) while crossing the city. However, I think the concept goes right by the non-cycling public, the latter which have a hard time understanding that cyclists can ride at 20MPH or higher speeds.

ItsJustMe

About 30 years ago when I was in college, there was a very nice area with a major waterfall in it. It was private property but the owner didn't mind people enjoying it. There were hundreds of people a day going in to enjoy the hiking there.

I went there several times a year for several years. Never noticed any undue wear on the place.

Then trail riding became a big thing. The next time I went there, I got nearly clipped several times while walking the half mile. Riders bombed pretty fast even past little children. The next spring when I went, there was massive erosion that was pretty clearly caused by bike tires tearing the ground up. A month later the owner closed off a beautiful area that had been open to everyone for 100 years. It's still closed. It didn't leave me thinking much of trail riders. Even on the trails that have been prepared to take the abuse of a bike, the 1 in 10 riders that are complete jerks really ruins things for me. I have to go to very, very out of the way trails to enjoy a hike anymore. I was extremely nervous when I had small children on the trail with me. I skipped going on some trails because of the danger.

genec

I have to fully agree... cycling trails and hiking trails on bare dirt should rarely be shared... the wear and tear from each activity is very different.

I tend to believe MUPs should rarely be shared too...

But at the same time I also believe that true bike paths should be designed that will handle cyclists doing 20mph or better.

The sad fact is that far too many facilities managers/designers tend to think bicycles are just rolling peds... thus we see "park paths" with hairpin turns and 8 mph speed limits being pushed to fast transportation and sports cyclists... all due to the old belief that bikes are toys... the standing attitude in America.

gpburdell

Huh? You're clearly not a runner. Upper 20's is bullexcrement.


Really fast runners out on a MUP might be managing 5 or 6 minutes/mile, which is 10-12mph. Current world record for the mile is 3:43.13, or 16.14mph. Current 400 meter world record is 43.18 seconds, or 20.7mph. 100 meter world record is 9.58 seconds, or 23.5mph.

If you know someone managing upper 20's they need to be heading to Brazil this summer.

mconlonx

Including the cyclists...

Digital_Cowboy

+1,000,000

dynodonn 

My guess is that the a good number of the high speed Strava posting cyclists are daily commuting motorists, and not daily commuting cyclists, in that the odds would have been better in their taking more care when operating their bicycles around other trail users.

Hypno Toad

That was going to be my point.

All this without on reported collision? Really?!?

Rollfast

If you can run 20 mph for 20 miles...1 hour, I will give you all the medals from Rio (that won't get used anyway).

The average human pace is between 3-5 miles in an hour jogging. All out running killed the first marathoner (who was delivering battle information to the Greeks or something)...he made it and collapsed and died.

The reason that you could do 20 mph on a bike is GEARING. Short, up and down strokes to a round driver and at least 1.5 to 1 ratio or greater makes a bike fast, along with quality hubs and bearings.

If Strava has outed you, you probably deserved it. Obey the rules of the trail and be safe towards all other users. High speeds also equal greater trail damage, as do certain tire types. Preservation of the trail is paramount as the manmade damage contributes to excessive erosion and instability, ruining the trail for all. When a path is muddy it is often closed as well.

This is something that has been gone over in the foothills areas of Boise a few times.

enigmaT120

But what was his time? I can just see the bystanders looking on after Phidippides died, and some of them must have been thinking to themselves "I wouldn't have died."

3 - 5 mph is walking speed. Even pretty slow runners can do 10 minute miles, which is 6 miles per hour. About my pace for my last marathon, but that was Crater Lake.

squirtdad

To put some local context into the picture...... the sub text in this case is really equestrians vs cyclists, which has been an issue in the Bay area since mountain bikes were invented.

it is also a bit of residents vs non resident park use.

Los Altos Hills is a very upscale town, where many residents own horses. Minimum lot size is zoned at 1 acre. Median home price is 4.3 million

So the locals are a higher percentage of horse rides and more bicyclists are from out of town.

The whole Strava things is a way to use hard numbers to support the horsie set position.

Rollfast

I wouldn't even wish that on Hitler.

(It's safer in Argentina where they all say he's hiding).

Rollfast

I just don't get all the gizmos like Strada at all, but then again I just pedal to go someplace and get home everyday. It's my 'car', not a race. I don't need to know my vitals, I know that I huff and puff more now yet no structures sustain any noticeable damage in my path.

baron von trail 

bingo

jfowler85

The difference therein is that trails see regular foot/hoof traffic, and getting buzzed by some strava asshat doing 20mph+ can put one on edge. If you're going to compare apples then at least use similar varieties.

Pick 100 people at random from anywhere and maybe a small number, oh I don't know...5-10?, will be able to maintain a 10/min pace. That may not be "fast" to you but to someone who doesn't run a 12/min pace would probably seem fast. The USMC's physical fitness test includes 3 miles in 28 min, or an average 9.3/min pace...a 10/min pace isn't that far off, and from what I remember during my time with infantry, even in-shape Marines had to work at maintaining that standard. If that's slow to you, well then you go girl.

genec

And public streets see regular foot and bike traffic... yet I don't recall members of the city council calling for bans of car traffic because some motorists regularly speed through the streets... but that is exactly the "variety" we are dealing with here.