joeyduck

I like it also.

I also like this video and happened to post it in the commuting forum a few days prior to this thread.

joeyduck

This has been my road use axiom for as long as I can remember.

JoeyBike

For this to work, a person (cyclist, whatever) must have skills and experience, maybe even training to know this. Then, they have to THINK about it when they are actually involved in the activity. So many people in cars or on bicycles look like they are thinking about something else or nothing at all. They have a certain "I am right HERE!...can't you SEE ME??!!" attitude.

You just can't save them all. Natural selection is the order of the universe for living things. Tragic, but some things just can not be taught to or learned by everyone....

Just think of the "mirror arguments" we have here. There is your proof.

joeyduck

I honestly can not recall when I learned it, but I grew up working in a garage; I thought of getting my CDL for years and even prepped for the test but never took it. I suspect it was one of the few pieces of very practical life saving advice my late stepfather passed onto me.

I always tried to ride with this in mind. If I was in traffic following a truck I would always be far left and making sure I could see them in their mirror. I am told that in the video of my accident (there is one shot from the bus, rear facing, above the driver's side mirror) that I was visible in the mirror/video from the time I entered the road and the only time I seem to have drifted out of view was when I shoulder checked.

It seems that there were just a few things that each party could have done differently. I think the most than we can do from this video is learn what we need to change about our actions. But do not let it scare you and prevent you from participating.

Personally, I am shocked by this video but not in the stomach churning gross sense, but in the damn I am the luckiest man alive.

I-Like-To-Bike

What are the qualifications/requirements to be considered a "truly professional cyclist" Something besides being a paid bicycle delivery boy or racer, and not riding anywhere a truck might be found in an adjacent lane?

CliffordK

The turn signal is clearly visible at the rear of the truck. But, like njkayaker, it is impossible to tell when it was activated. I don't see it at the beginning of the video, but it may be the high angle of the video obscured it.

Nonetheless, it is likely what I call a KILL ZONE SIGNAL.

Vehicles here in the USA are getting a little better, but there are quite a few vehicles that if one doesn't see the rear signal, then the turn signals are absolutely not visible anywhere without pulling in front of the vehicle and looking back.

Front quarter panel, and mirror mounted signals should be mandated on 100% of the vehicles, so bikes (or vehicles) in the kill zone can actually see the signals.

It is quite possible that the turn signal was never visible to the cyclist and scooter.

joeyduck

I was very disappointed that we progressed backwards when we got our brand new Dodge minivan and it didn't have mirror or quarter panel indicators. We went from a 2004 VW Golf that had them to a 2014 Dodge Grand Caravan without them.

I think that manufacturers should make them just since it is practical and is a general benefit to others.

Relating to new vehicles lights has anyone else found that LED tail and brake lights are difficult to see from angles? I noticed it a few years ago on a Cadillac (I think) that when coming along side I couldn't make out their lights.

Also I wish that NA vehicles wold adopt the amber rear turn signal, I find them easier and unambiguous. I sometimes can't tell if someone is tapping their brakes or putting their signals on when they are all red, especially when coming on their side and their red lights flash and you can only see one side. I further think that the radio should be tied into the brake light circuit. Therefore when a bulb blows you know since your radio doesn't work. It drives me crazy that so many vehicles have lights out and they are oblivious and would never think about it. Also while I am it get rid of front only daytime running lights, make them all or nothing and we won't have any of this driving without taillights. and adjust headlight beams (low beam and DRL) down out of other road users eyes, Chevy trucks and Chrysler products are the worst at this.

FBinNY 

I hate to be so negative about this, but the facts speak for themselves.

While some events may not be avoidable, it's 100% the cyclist's responsibility to avoid those that are or may be.

We can debate driver responsibility, light, use of signals, and all non-cyclist conditions, and we can wish that those are improving, but it doesn't matter for the simple reason hat they are not in our control. Even if the system is near perfect, and 99.9% of vehicles are equipped with blind spot detectors, light and alarms, and super conscientious drivers (a pipe dream), we still will encounter ones that aren't.

We are free to ride or not, or ride on public roads or not, but no matter how we want to debate issues, once we get on the bike we become captains of our own ship and fate, and it behooves us to take responsibility for ourselves seriously.

Accidents aren't distributed randomly, and while we all face the same risks, and we'll all have potential accidents, but for some they'll be mostly close calls and others will have more accidents.

Nothing wrong with pushing for after conditions, but if you want to live until they happen it pays to adapt to what's there NOW and ride smart.

BTW- don't take this to mean that I assign any blame to the rider in this video. From all appearances, this was unavoidable from her end and I look at it as a case of a bullet (truck) with her name on it.

JoeyBike

A lot of discussion regarding visible turn signals all over every truck. And I must admit that professional drivers very often use their turn indicators. But no way in Hell am I going to trust a dark turn signal as any indication that any vehicle is NOT turning. I would assume they are ALL turning, so they can get rid of the pretty lights entirely for all I care.
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CliffordK

Ok, so for my accident analysis...

• As mentioned, side visible turn signals would have helped. The rider was in a tough place though, perhaps with the front of the bike ahead of the truck's bumper (hit by both front and rear wheels).
• If one simply stopped riding whenever passed by a vehicle one wouldn't get anywhere. But, one should also keep in mind bad road positioning. Either speed up or slow down tor better positioning with respect to traffic.
• I'm not sure about Chinese lane marking, but there appears to be a straight arrow in the truck's lane, which may indicate that right turns were not permitted. So, it is quite possible that the truck made an illegal right turn. Of course, being there, one might see it happening by multiple drivers, or not. If it is illegal, was the law enforced?
• The truck is seen pulling left, then cutting right. This would have been appropriate for a truck pulling a trailer, but NOT for a single vehicle. The truck should have pulled right into the cycle lane. Drove straight halfway into the intersection, then cut hard right. Doing so would have indicated intention to make a right turn, and still cleared the curb. He had a whole lane to turn across, no trailer... why the cut left maneuver?
• The cyclist reacted late to the turning truck. Again this may have been due to bad positioning slightly ahead of the truck. I've had to do hard right turns to avoid turning vehicles, but perhaps slightly further back. Being positioned a little further right in the bike lane would have given a little more buffer, and the cyclist might have been able to see the truck and make the turn/stop. If there is a parking lane without cars to the right of a bike lane, I'm often riding there, as far away from cars as possible.

Blame the victim?
No, one has to blame the truck driver for the accident. However, there may have been "defensive riding" skills that could have saved the victim.

Stadjer

Typical for what? The truck driver is not only responsible for his own safety but also for the safety of other road users. That comes with the inherent danger of it's weight and power. The cyclist is only responsible to himself and generally only for his own safety. But you've got to do what you can do to avoid accidents that are often lethal.

The other thing is that in a situation you have your rights as a cyclist and your claim to your space is succesful, you can also decide to gift it to a truck driver. If you have your rights and you have your space, the truck driver isn't the enemy. You don't have to fight him anymore.

FBinNY 

+1, unless there's a steering interlock that makes turning the front wheel more than a degree or two unless the signal was engaged 4 seconds prior, counting a no signal as a safe pass is unplanned suicide.

I can't count how often I see active signal error -- signal flashing but no turn -- but as often as I do, I see passive (false negative) vastly more often.

I like folks to signal because it gives me an idea and helps plan, but I don't take signals (or non signals) as any kind of gospel.

I consider riding along a long vehicle in a way similar to riding in bad neighborhoods. Sometimes you've no choice and do it, but you try to get out of there ASAP.

CliffordK

Too many close calls...

But, I try to learn from them and improve my riding.

I put on a lot of miles without hitting or being hit by cars. I've talked to other people who have been hit multiple times.

Part of it may be that I ride in low-risk areas, and seek out low-risk routes. Nonetheless, nothing is devoid of risk, and one has to be aware of the risks and work to minimize them including route choice.

CliffordK

Rule #`1 of driving. Never assume a vehicle is turning because of signal alone. Look for other signs such as slowing down, pulling right, actually turning, etc.

Turn signals do help a lot though.

Signal use does vary a lot from city to city. Eugene has much better signal use than other cities I've been in such as Portland or St. Louis.

JoeyBike

Knowing you are in danger, or about to enter a danger zone, can be quite helpful. I feel like many folks just do not have the capacity for this wisdom.
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joeyduck

I think that rings all to true.

CB HI

So what skills did you confirm that this cyclist did not have?

CliffordK

The cyclist apparently lacked the skills to stay alive in Chinese traffic.

Had the cyclist been riding 2 feet to the right, it would have given the person an additional fraction of a second to react, either slamming on the brakes or doing a hard right, or both.

The rear turn signal is clearly visible, at least for part of the clip. It is unclear if a front signal would have also been visible to the cyclist, or if the person had been paying attention.

It is also unclear how long the cyclist had been shadowing the truck, but as has been mentioned several times, that is a dangerous place to be. 5 feet ahead and the cyclist might have been visible to the truck, as well as potentially avoiding the collision. Back at the rear quarter panel, the cyclist might be visible in the mirrors, and would have had more time to react when seeing the front wheels turn, and might have avoided falling under the rear dual wheels.

CB HI

Now you are blaming the cyclist with this crap.

"The cyclist apparently lacked the skills to stay alive in Chinese traffic." Worthless, vile statement.

The cyclist was slightly right of center on the bike lane, but after the video, you decide that was not a good enough position.

The truck driver did not turn his signal on until just before he made the turn and and there is no side signal near the cab of the truck. Yet you decide the cyclist should have seen the same signal at the rear of the truck that you saw in the video.

So you do not know if the cyclist was "shadowing the truck" but you blame her for doing such and not being able to suddenly warp to 5 feet ahead of the truck, even though the truck was required to go straight by the lane marking. You should have blamed the cyclist for not being psychic.

By the way, she did start to turn before the truck ran her over during his illegal turn. Maybe she should have had more of a sport bicycle capable of making a better emergency turn rather than her slower utility cycle.

Giving bad advice can be worse than giving no advice.

prj71

The solution is simple. Don't ride in places like that. Car will win everytime.

This isn't rocket science folks.

dynodonn 

With your simple solution, eventually there will no places on the road for a cyclist to ride.

dynodonn 

Your comment is again typical of "right of weight" thinking, rather than having larger vehicles operators use more care since they can do more harm if operated negligently, and I do consider a truck driver the "enemy" if they operate their vehicle in a careless manner.

Stadjer

No, that has nothing to do with what I said.

prj71

Why not ride areas with little to no traffic instead of putting yourself at risk of being hit by a 3000 - 10,000 lb vehicle?

GamblerGORD53

So, after looking a dozen more times on a bigger screen ... I now see that we have all been WRONGLY assuming the bikes were in a bike lane. If the truck was in the straight lane, then the right lane is a TURN only lane. You can also see the absence of that lane on the other side, where you can also see that there are separated BIKE/ moped/ bus / parking lanes, behind the island. Actually being there it would be obvious. Likely this is early morning with light traffic, so the bikes rode in the car lanes. It may be not completely illegal, but it will change the cyclist responsibilities.

So we are back with my original assertion that they were BOTH rather oblivious to the dangers.
It wasn't so busy that they couldn't easily find a way to not collide. Turning that truck from the turn lane would NOT be a good idea.

EDIT: Darn I made mistake. There seems to be actually no side lane behind the camera, like there is across this light. Doesn't change the outcome much.